Europeans tend to think they
How did Iraq go after you? They were made the scapegoat for 911 even though there is no evidence that Iraq was involved in that. Sure, they were an easy military target but a threat to the US they were not.
I don’t recall making such a comparision.
No I am asking you to examine how this company is run, how and when it is audited and such. Standard stuff for international organizations surely? How did Gazprom come about? What happened to Yukos? Who owned Yukos? What happened to him and why?
You can prove US support for the Muhajadin. I was asking for proof that the US supported the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. Tsk tsk. Do try to keep up with the discussion.
Also, US support for Saddam was less than 1 percent of his conventional weapons, less than 3.5 percent for his wmds and that was mostly in the guise of supercomputers which “could” be used for such purposes rather than actual chemicals or such.
But you will find the Russians 59 percent, French 13 percent and Chinese 12 percent major suppliers of conventional weaponry while Germany supplied 50 percent, Switzerland 8 percent, Austria 5 percent, France 5 percent, Italy 5 percent of his chemical, nuclear and missile weapons equipment and agents.
Yes, please do “remind” me. While it may be fun to wax shrill on the subject especially when fueled by zmag.org rants, you will have to prove it. And that is something that you will not be able to do. Sorry, but there you are.
[quote]BERLIN (AFP) - German former chancellor Gerhard Schroeder defended his decision to head the supervisory board of the German-Russian gas pipeline project after his government guaranteed credit for the venture, in an interview to be published Monday. Schroeder, who formally took up the new post Friday, told the Handelsblatt business daily he had been unaware his administration had guaranteed a credit of one billion euros (1.2 billion dollars) for the Russian giant Gazprom’s Baltic pipeline. He added that Gazprom had no plans to take the loan. “I did not know about these proceedings,” he said.
The economy ministry confirmed Saturday that an inter-ministerial commission rushed through a “decision in principle” on October 24 last year while waiting for a new coalition to be formed by now Chancellor Angela Merkel. Schroeder said he was only offered the supervisory board post, for which he will earn an annual salary of 250,000 euros, after he left office in November. “I cannot see anything wrong with that,” he said.
The four-billion euro pipeline agreement was signed just 10 days before the German general election in September, at a ceremony attended by Schroeder and Russian President Vladimir Putin. Critics in Germany blasted Schroeder’s involvement in the project, particularly in light of the credit guarantee, as a “sweetheart deal” that muddled his personal interests with those of the country. “This affair stinks to high heaven,” said Guido Westerwelle, leader of the liberal opposition Free Democratic Party, who is embroiled in a legal battle with Schroeder over his previous attacks of the Gazprom job.[/quote]
[quote]Russia, 2003.03.07
Corruption Costs Russia USD 30 Billion a Year
According to Russian entrepreneurs, last year corruption cost businesses USD 30 billion, or between 10 and 12% of gross domestic product. The figures were cited by Mikhail Khodorkovsky, president of the YUKOS oil company, at a meeting between President Vladimir Putin and representatives of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs. Khodorkovsky compared the problem of corruption with terrorism and unemployment. The number of state officials is increasing, which leads to an increase in corruption, said the YUKOS chief. To combat corruption Mikhail Khodorkovsky proposed the practice of "eliminating odious figures in the machinery of state as they lose trust[/quote]
and
[quote]Russia has reverted to the Wild East. But these days the crooks are the government.
By Frank Brown
Newsweek May 16 issue -
The May 9 celebrations are over. Global luminaries have gone home. Now comes Act II: the endgame in the takedown of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the founding CEO of Yukos Oil and once Russias richest man.
Vladimir Putin is only too familiar with the problem. “Everyone who opens a new firm or business and registers it should be given a medal for courage,” he said in March, vowing that his government would change things
Rascal
One last point. You may curl your little fists in fury like some impotent figure in a mental home with a Napoleon complex but the fact remains that you do not have a veto over US policy and that is what irks you. As a German citizen, you want to contribute nothing to defense and still have a veto over US military actions. We examined the threat posed by Iraq and we believed it was sufficient to warrant an attack. Germany was fully able to stay out of that conflict but that is not what really happened. AND when all is said and done, whose political leader is being investigated for connections to Big Oil, yours. I had believed that Fischer and Schroeder were just chumps to French and Russian corruption but that is no longer necessarily the case. Now, that Merkel is chancellor and is on record as saying that she fully agreed with the case to invade Iraq, what then is left of your objections? You may personally be offended but your national government no longer is so then wherein lies your anger?
Also to Sharlee, you are high on emotions but a bit short on facts. Now, that France and the US are actively cooperating and now that we KNOW a lot more about what was going on in Saddams Iraq prior to the war as well as the level of French and Russian complicity, please check out www.foreignaffairs.org for the most recent issue, then what are your complaints about lies and such if not just hysteria? Where are your facts? Given that you cannot have any to support your position then you need to ask yourself why you are so willing to arrive at the positions that you hold? I think that your anti Bush and anti American positions boil down to nothing better than racism. While this is not applicable to a government and people such as the US, the irrational hatreds and blatant exercise of gross stereotypes seems to fit the bill. I strongly urge you therefore to think long and hard about what is behind these negative emotions and feelings of yours regarding Bush and America. Also, as I have stated, given that YOUR OWN government and leaders believed that Saddam was developing wmds, why no vitriolic hatred for your own leaders? Because they chose to sell out rather than act? Now, there is a noble quality and one that observers of your nations leaders have been wont to point out as one of the characteristics that they least admire.
So you’re back and in full form. Ok will try to answer your questions even if I don t have much time.
First point :
When our PM and foreign minister thought Saddam was trying to develop wmds, where is the problem ? it is only right to check whether Saddam was trying to develop them. He was not a saint. The difference between US point of views and europeans are the first said Iraq have and the second Iraq was trying to (hence the trust Europe put in the international nuclear agency)
Again the US was in a rush and did not wait the final reports of the international nuclear agency.
Come on Fred, I know you re not going to admit it, but the Iraqi war was planned a long time ago. (and not because of wmd) And it is only a start (as you know)
Second point :
A friend (ally) has to voice when his friend is going to make a mistake. But your president is too stubborn to see this. Only now is Condi admitting the US did make mistakes. Too late.
I wouldn t see it the same way as you see it. France and Germany have always cooperated for issues that we consider worth to be fighted for. Running after Ben Laden, no problem. Helping where there are problems, why not even if we do not have the military power you have and the money.
If Europe agrees on Iran, it is because the Iranian president is a danger (his statements are those of a dangerous man). Not because we are backing down or because there is no Paris Berlin Moscow ax. You have some way to try and persuade other people…
What is so disturbing from your administration, is that they think they are so right. They can t admit criticism . But as I said it is nothing new and they will scream and shout (Communists for opponents like during the vietnam war or enemy of America for opponents of the Iraq war).
Berlusconi gone, is one lier less. Hope to see Blair gone too and also Chirac.Change all the crooks.
It might not be any easier in the future because of the very bad situation Bush will have left. So ain’t gonna be easy for the next democrat in power or Prodi or whoever is the next french president. But at least I m happy the gansters are gone. Good riddance.
I hope the situation will be back to normal between the US and european countries, to fight together to keep our common values (democracy and freedom).
There is nothing new in your position and in mine and we had discussed it at length so I m not going to discuss it any further. Now the western world
has to be united and this implies that the US will have to rule taking into consideration other points of view and Europe to help America the more they can.
But unfortunately I don t see a bright future. The next wars (as the Iraq one) will be all for … oil…
it is time to get the heads thinking and find new energy sources
Haha. I will take that as a compliment.
[quote]First point :
When our PM and foreign minister thought Saddam was trying to develop wmds, where is the problem ? it is only right to check whether Saddam was trying to develop them. He was not a saint. The difference between US point of views and Europeans are the first said Iraq have and the second Iraq was trying to (hence the trust Europe put in the international nuclear agency) [/quote]
Your leaders BELIEVED that he was developing nuclear and other wmds.
After 17 UN resolutions over 12 years, what are you talking about?
Yes, as I recall, it was planned a long time ago, say, even in 1991 after the First Gulf War. Much of this planning occurred under Clinton and why? Because as with Iran, we realize that the wmds are not the problem but the leaderships of these countries are.
[quote]Second point :
A friend (ally) has to voice when his friend is going to make a mistake. But your president is too stubborn to see this. Only now is Condi admitting the US did make mistakes. Too late. [/quote]
Au contraire ma petite poulet. France deliberately stabbed the US in the back by promising to support an 18th!!! get it 18 after 17 existing resolutions IF the US went to the security council and then it lied to Powell and ran to try to set up some axis with Berlin and Moscow to pretend that it was still relevant in the world. That is not the action of an ally. Anyway, regardless of how or why the cooperation, the very close cooperation between France and the US that is now taking place resulted, is the least of my concerns. I am merely happy that it is occuring. AND as to those mistakes. haha Why then, or how should I say do you account for the fact that France is taking the leadership role along with Germany and Britain regarding Iran? So Iran is a threat that requires French leadership and action but Iraq was not even though the French intelligence believes in both cases that the leadership is-was up to no good? Why don
just reacting to your french expressions. If I was, I d give you the bird flue 
Freedom of North Korea… go then. You will get my admiration if you really want to bring down this dictator.
Getting rid of Chirac. He is an old ill president. He wont run. So do not worry over this.
Not a bright future for Europe. Europe not being important. This we already know.
but your future is not bright either. Just looking at the face of Bush with the chinese president reminded me of his face when meeting Chirac.Not really pleased.
And of course the same old cliche you use the terror oh will I be able to vote as a woman when I retire… doesn t work sorry.
Oh, I am honored, such a long reply for a few of my comments.
I actually never stated that the U.S. supported the Taliban. What I meant is, after they were done in Afghanistan, and how they abondand it, and the rest of the mess they left made it possible for the Taliban to rise to power. And wasn’t bin Laden one of the Muhajadin? At least that’s what I heard before, but there could be a flaw in the sources.
Maybe the other countries thought it was okay, since the U.S. was supporting him, and didn’t he get very warm welcomes in Washington? I don’t remember Saddam visiting Europe, but I might have been too young at that time, or too forgetful these days.
Sadly enough, a lot of people still think that this world needs a leader, and follow often too closely in the U.S. footsteps. Even if their actions aren’t within the democratic way.
[quote=“fred smith”]
Yes, please do “remind” me. While it may be fun to wax shrill on the subject especially when fueled by zmag.org rants, you will have to prove it. And that is something that you will not be able to do. Sorry, but there you are.[/quote]
I thought you would say that. And I am sure if I would take the time, I can find some sources online who would have “proof”. And you would probably go ahead and try to discredit these sources, as you already did for zmag.org (and I don’t even know that side). I probalby don’t really believe that Yahoo! News, Newsweek or some Club in Wisconsin is unbiased. (I actually once had a subscription to Newsweek. Man, what a difference to my other news sources) I never read “The Washington Times” though, and I might have a closer look at the SIPRI webpage. Sadly enough, we are all influenced by the media we read. So what’s the point. And for this mocking around, my time here is very limited, and I also have other fun things to do.
Again, sorry that this reply is not worthy for your truely extensive research. This is not because of a lack in motivation, rather due to a lack of time.
Should I call you Dr. freud smith from now on?
I do not mind. Actually, I would quite enjoy it as a nice change of pace from the names that I usually get called.
Now, Rascal, I hope you do take my point. Your disagreement means essentially that you want a veto over US, British, Norwegian, Danish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, Kazakhistani, Mongolian, Georgian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Czech, Slovakian, Polish, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Japanese, Thai, Singaporean, Australian policy no? You were consulted, you disagreed. All fine and good. You chose to actively oppose us, not so good, but again this is a moot point since your new chancellor fully agreed that Saddam needed to be taken out and is on record as saying she supported the US led invasion. Voila. WE are finally on the same page. Nice to have Germany back. You can continue to protest however as I find it amusing. Reread Napoleon comments above. haha
I shall look forward with great anticipation to ce evenement!
As you should be. Anyway, do not get too excited. Over the past three years, I have seen many a newbie pop up with all their theories and half baked ideas. You just happened to be the one to get swatted down this time.
Here in fact is what you did say…
So what the hell exactly did you mean then…
So why say that both were allies? Clearly then that is wrong.
Yes, but what is the relevance to that? The US never supported or trained him directly. If some of the Muhajadin gave him weapons what is that to us? Also, the Muhajadin did not like or trust him either so…
Understatement of the day…
The US is selling him next to nothing and almost all of this in the crucial years of 1982 and 1983 and you think we were the lead man on this? Better talk to the French, Russians and Germans about what was going on. I hardly see how one sale of whatever would lead German businessmen to suddenly have an epiphany and go sehr gut we can now sell all sorts of things. Also, Iran is suing only one country for such sales and that is Germany.
My little friend, we had downgraded relations with Iraq since 1968 so er when Saddam was in office not only was there no full diplomatic relations but the possibility of him visiting the US is a ludicrous one. I believe like others of your ilk you are probably remembering the photo where Rumsfeld was photographed visiting Saddam in Iraq. Anyway keep trying. I am hopeful that one day you will get these facts right.
Given that we have established that your memory is not much to depend on, I think you would be right here.
I will leave you to interpret and define these lapses in your own way.
Sadly? When ever has a nation followed in another footsteps without a direct and clear purpose? This is standard diplomacy 101 so why not step up to the plate and try to gain a basic understanding.
Last I checked the US was still a democracy that regularly consults its allies. Oh you mean that France and Germany should have been given a veto over US actions despite the fact that the vast majority of NATO and EU partners supported the action? How is that democratic?
Good start.
[quote]
And I am sure if I would take the time,[/quote]
it would contribute greatly to the quality of your debates.
Knock yourself out. I will be waiting and I remain supremely confident.
What all this means is beyond my understanding so score a point for you. I am so glad that you have other fun things to do. Perhaps, you would be best off doing them?
No, it is not worthy. Lack of motivation? I will leave that for you to determine. Lack of time, well then… guess you will be far too busy to post that is … unless you have something substantial to offer…
Still going on Fred. News from today.
This is not over… the European parliament is still investigating. I think you read french
Okay, I agree that this phrase can be confusing if you only read what you want to read. Appologies for my poor english. The bold sentense is refering to Saddam and Bin Laden, who was part of the Muhajadin that got supported by the U.S. as you agreed to further down. It seems we are getting somewhere.
[quote=“fred smith”]
So why say that both were allies? Clearly then that is wrong.[/quote]
Being supported, being allies, what’s the difference, just a minor change in definition. But I can settle to being supported by the U.S. I guess they weren’t called allies, because the U.S. was not bold/dumb enough to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan directly.
[quote=“fred smith”]
Understatement of the day…[/quote]
Come on, at least be fair. You took this out of context. You just agreed to the fact that bin Laden was part of the Muhajadin, and now you disagree.
[quote=“fred smith”]
The US is selling him next to nothing and almost all of this in the crucial years of 1982 and 1983 and you think we were the lead man on this? Better talk to the French, Russians and Germans about what was going on. I hardly see how one sale of whatever would lead German businessmen to suddenly have an epiphany and go sehr gut we can now sell all sorts of things. Also, Iran is suing only one country for such sales and that is Germany.[/quote]
That would be part of my previous statement. Have you ever considered, that your sources might also be biased? There are also many ways to diguise transactions. Have you ever asked yourself why the largest manufacturer of arms on the planet, has such a small percentage of actual weapon sales? Double check your sources. Where do those numbers come from. Is there such a thing as weapon laundry, or under the table arms deals?
I don’t think I am your friend, nor am I little. I am very picky with my friends. So please, either address me by my online name, or by a simple “you”, as it is also stated in the rules.
[quote=“fred smith”]
Last I checked the US was still a democracy that regularly consults its allies. [/quote]
I disagree there. For example, a decision was made not to attack Iraq in a democratic way by the world community, but nevertheless, the U.S. invaded. The U.S. has to learn, that there is no leader in a democracy and not everybody always gets what they want. And the best way to promote democracy is to live it.
I am not sure what your obsession with a VETO for Germany and France is but I am sure you are referring to the recently rejected reform of the U.N. security counsil. I know for a fact, that the initial reform proposal of the group that Germany was part of did include the removal of all VETO rights. But the U.S. or probably other VETO powers would not agree to such a reform, so it was taken out of the proposal. If I remember correctly, Germany demised it’s right for a VETO in the reform proposal while granting the existing VETO powers to remain their rights.
[quote=“fred smith”]
it would contribute greatly to the quality of your debates.[/quote]
Again, stay on topic, don’t discuss the poster.
In summary, I am this time deeply disappointed by your post. You broke the rules 3 times, discussed the poster not the topic, and called me names. You should not do that. :no-no:
If I would keep score, it is 3:0 for you in offenses.
[quote=“SHARLEE”]Still going on Fred. News from today.
This is not over… the European parliament is still investigating. I think you read french
fr.news.yahoo.com/26042006/290/u … a-cia.html[/quote]
In fact, the EU parliament sees it as proven that ilegal CIA flights took place in Europe which transported kidnapped EU citizens and from other nationalities. Where were they all going? To a CIA payed vacation on Phi Phi Don? Hmm, probably not. If that is the democratic way that U.S. forces are trying to force onto the world, I am scared.
You Americanos get kidnapped by space Aliens,
we Euros get kidnapped by the CIA.
anal intruding greetings,
Bob Taiwandollar
// have no Euros left, wife used them all up
[quote]You Americanos get kidnapped by space Aliens,
we Euros get kidnapped by the CIA.
anal intruding greetings,
Bob Taiwandollar
// have no Euros left, wife used them all up[/quote]
:bravo: 
:bravo:
And Fred gets abducted by Reverend Moon. Where’d ya get this story Freddie, from the Washington Times again? Give us a break.
Anyway, here’s the news, and you don’t need to read French. Translation: too bad.
taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003304787
[color=darkblue]
CIA’s renditions `violated’ agreement
SECRET FLIGHTS: Up to 1,000 of the flights landed in different European airports as the CIA moved suspected terrorists around the world, according to EU lawmakers
AP , BRUSSELS
Thursday, Apr 27, 2006,Page 1
Advertising Advertising
The CIA has conducted more than 1,000 undeclared flights over European territory since 2001 – a clear violation of an international treaty, European Parliament investigators said yesterday.
Lawmakers investigating alleged illegal CIA activities in Europe also said incidents when terror suspects were handed over to US agents did not appear to be isolated, and that the suspects often were transported by the same planes and groups of people.
EU lawmakers presented a first preliminary report on their findings, working off data provided by Eurocontrol, the EU’s air safety agency, and information gathered during three months of hearings and more than 50 hours of testimony by individuals who said they were kidnapped and tortured by US agents, EU officials and rights groups.
Data showed that CIA planes made numerous stopovers on European territory that were never declared, violating an international air treaty that requires airlines to declare the route and stopovers for planes with a police mission, said Italian lawmaker Giovanni Claudio Fava, who drafted the report.
“The routes for some of these flights seem to be quite suspect. They are rather strange routes for flights to take. It is hard to imagine … those stopovers were simply for providing fuel,” he said.[/color]
Toe Tag
Let me know when you get past alleged. When the proof is there I will be happy to revisit.
I fully aware that you are unaware of the difference. It is NOT a minor change of definition. Time for Foreign Policy 101?
So go to www.iraqwatch.org and find the statistics and tell me what is wrong with any of them.
Because as the guarantor of stability and peace in the Persian Gulf, we are not going to sell to just anyone unlike our friends the Germans, Russians and French. Ask away all you want but it will not change this fact.
This is rich coming from you. Why not begin by providing a source of your own period.
Well, you can take the trouble to go to the site to check it for yourself. They are reputable or I assure you that Rascal would have been all over them when he found that his preciously moral nation was the key supplier of wmds to Iraq pre Gulf War I
Fine. Prove to me how the US is not a democracy today. Sources please…
The UN? Give me a break. Most of the nations in the UN are not democracies themselves. So who exactly is the world community? Do we have to listen to dictatorships and put our policies to a vote every time we want to engage in foreign policy? Do the French, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese or anyone else that you can think of submit their policies to such a test? I will give you a hint. They do not so why should we? Again, a majority of EU and NATO nations voted in favor so why should Germany and France have a veto? If it is a democratic thing then they should have gone along with the majority of their EU and NATO partners no?
That is the most ignorant thing you have said to date and that is a triumph believe you me. What exactly do you think a president is if not a leader?
So what?
I think that I am having trouble understanding your English again, care to explain.
I am talking about Germany and France and their actions to oppose the US led effort in Iraq before the second Gulf War.
I am sure it would contribute greatly to the quality of your debates.
Nonsense. This is directly relevant to the posts that you make. If you are too lazy to back up your