No, because he’d be in Palau or Nicaragua, hiding from the law and trying to get ahold of his loot.
I am off my food too. Im on a slimming mission. And I never had 30 million in the bank in Switzerland or anywhere .
No, because he’d be in Palau or Nicaragua, hiding from the law and trying to get ahold of his loot.[/quote] For sure - I’ve heard about how tricky he is. He’d put on a trench coat, dark sunglasses, and fake moustache, slip through immigration and nobody would be the wiser. It’s a good thing they put him behind barbed wire where they can keep an eye on him until they figure out what he did.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“mr_boogie”]The question is the difference of treatment he is having, and all the KMTers who were accused of the same had.
So, when did James Soong went to prison? When did MYJ went to prison not to collude with his secretary? Same crimes, different treatments, no?[/quote]
Ah, the “they did it too” defense.
I guess when Chen was president the govt failed to do it’s job in prosecuting wrongdoers. Does that mean Chen should get immunity for his crimes?
Will there eventually be a point where it becomes acceptable for Taiwan to punish wrongdoers, or must they grant immunity from prosecution in perpetuity to all past, present and future wrongdoers, because others got away with shit in the past?[/quote]
So, in your world it is ok to keep someone in prison for MONTHS without charge?
No, because he’d be in Palau or Nicaragua, hiding from the law and trying to get ahold of his loot.[/quote]
And how exactly would he get there? All you are doing is mindlessly parroting the KMT like without actually thinking how difficult it would be to do this.
[quote=“ludahai”]
So, in your world it is ok to keep someone in prison for MONTHS without charge?[/quote]
He has been charged, hasn’t he? Corruption, bribery, laundering - something like that. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t really understand how these things work, but there’s plenty in the news about the various charges.
[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“ludahai”]
So, in your world it is ok to keep someone in prison for MONTHS without charge?[/quote]
He has been charged, hasn’t he? Corruption, bribery, laundering - something like that. I’m not a lawyer so I don’t really understand how these things work, but there’s plenty in the news about the various charges.[/quote]
I am talking about his detention last year PRIOR to charges being filed.
It is still undeniable, that Taiwan improved greatly under the stewardship of Lee Tung Hui and CSB. They cared about TAIWAN, not there place in Chinese history. CSB’s 30 million if it is ever proven is chicken feed. The saddest story is the fighting between Taiwanese tourist groups and Chinese tourist groups for food scraps in Alishan.
The story of Taiwan politics is:
The King is dead. Long live the King.
Only the fucked up or ignorant would think differently.
Why do people here go on hunger strike until a set date? Surely then there’s no point, as we all know they’ll be eating again in a few weeks, right? A real hunger strike goes on until it effects change, such as Ghandi’s or Bobby Sands’. Those they opposed felt shamed or forced by guilt to concede–or at least that was the hope. That won’t happen if they know the strike will end in a few weeks and that hunger strikers can last several months or more quite easily.
Anyway, I’m currently on reduced-calorie intake until payday to protest not making enough money these days. Pray for me. The chocolate bars had to go.
I agree. Chen Shiu-Bian should show some real stomach by eating nothing!
Did he say this and is the translation correct?
[quote]Chen Shui-Bian statement:
良心告訴我，不能再繼續騙自己騙別人，決定選擇坦白，我曾經做了法律所不許可的事情，我願意就從市長到總統的四次選舉，有關競選經費的申報不實，逕向全國民眾道歉
Translation:
“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people”[/quote]
and this?
Just curious.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Did he say this and is the translation correct?
[quote]Chen Shui-Bian statement:
良心告訴我，不能再繼續騙自己騙別人，決定選擇坦白，我曾經做了法律所不許可的事情，我願意就從市長到總統的四次選舉，有關競選經費的申報不實，逕向全國民眾道歉
Translation:
“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people”[/quote]
and this?
Just curious.[/quote] Hahahaha, you can’t be serious… Are you implying that’s why it’s OK to lock him up? :loco:
Although I agree he did great damage to the party - but not by stealing anything… but by doing a poor job while in office…! Perhaps he should be locked up for that. But that should be easy to prove - unlike the other charges apparently are.
[quote][quote=“Mother Theresa”]Did he say this and is the translation correct?
[quote]Chen Shui-Bian statement:
良心告訴我，不能再繼續騙自己騙別人，決定選擇坦白，我曾經做了法律所不許可的事情，我願意就從市長到總統的四次選舉，有關競選經費的申報不實，逕向全國民眾道歉
Translation:
“My conscience has told me that I cannot continue to lie to myself or to others, so I will choose to be bluntly honest: I have, in the past, committed deeds that are against the rule of law, and I am willing, for all campaign finance dishonesty from my four elections for mayor and for president, to apologize to the people”[/quote][/quote]
The translation is more or less correct. But he is a lawyer and chooses his words. We should try to reflect that in our translations. I would change a few things as follows:
Notice that he is saying that he did things not permitted by law. Just because the law does not endorse certain conduct does not mean the law condemns it. He also did not say that he reported his campaign finances untruthfully, just that they were reported untruthfully and that he accepts responsibility.
And we need to keep in mind, incredible as it may seem, keeping campaign contributions is not against the law. Failing to report them as taxable income is. James Soong had to pay back taxes on the large sums of campaign contributions he retained as well.
Personally, I think he stole the money in an ethical sense. The people who gave him money were expecting him to use it in his political campaigns, not salt it away in Swiss bank accounts.
Ethically and politically I think he’s admitted that he did wrong. I’m not sure about legally.
Just curious.[/quote]
[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“mr_boogie”]The question is the difference of treatment he is having, and all the KMTers who were accused of the same had.
So, when did James Soong went to prison? When did MYJ went to prison not to collude with his secretary? Same crimes, different treatments, no?[/quote]
Ah, the “they did it too” defense.[/quote]
Did you really fail to understand what he wrote, or did you deliberately mis-read it?
I am concerned by the fact that there is such a difference in how you are treated in Taiwan depending on which political party you come from. As mr boogie says, Blue politicians and business types got bail, followed by bail, followed by more bail. They used it to flee the country and/or quite probably destroy evidence. Yet, for some reason, Green politicians are treated much more harshly, regardless of whether their crimes are more/as/less severe.
It’s not surprising that the KMT is so praiseworthy of the Singaporean PAP. Doubtless if they had the same power the latter does they’d sue all DPP politicians for “slander” when they’re criticised, wait until the courts lay out multi-million dollar fines, have them bankrupted and then disqualified from running for political office. The legal system in Taiwan could do with reforming, but at least it’s not like in Singapore where it’s almost always a case of “PAP = win”.
Also, despite the fact I don’t agree with Chen’s actions re the money, it is still wrong to take away his visitation rights because he’s gone on hunger-strike. What’s next - taking away his right to legal representation or presumption of innocence?
You see, in my experience, the DPP is also equivalent to the PAP in a lot of ways but without the intellectual sophistication and internationalism on many levels.
In Singapore, if Lee Kuan Yew’s cadres in the PAP dislike what you’ve said, you’ll be removed from your job if you’re a foreigner or brought before the court system and bankrupted if you’re a local. They want apparatchiks that are completely loyal to the state, suspicious of westerners, and are always ready to use the “Asian values” argument in the Kishore Mahbubani style.
In Taiwan, the DPP had no qualms about using “Taiwan values” at the expense of foreigners. They have no qualms about using the ethnic card, engaging in tribalism, and getting rid of individuals that don’t tow the party line completely. At least, this could be said for Chen’s ole Justice Alliance faction. The DPP is more similar to the PAP than to any western counterparts.
Taking one faction as an example of the entire party is a completely bogus comparison. One can say exactly the same thing about the KMT, TSU and PFP about tolerance of other views. The KMT itself plays the ethnic card by saying that any attempt to block the Sinification of Taiwan/Taiwanese culture is an attack on other ethnic groups.
The PAP’s defining factor is that it is a party of authoritarianism - ethnicity is a minor factor. The KMT is still fairly oppressive in spirit - it is restrained by the law, not by its own tolerance. The DPP, whilst imperfect, it isn’t like that.
And why would you compare an Asian party to western equivalents?
The analogy is dumb and the conclusion is even more dumbass.
The DPP has no similarities to PAP in any way what so ever. What’s more the DPP rightly or wrongly (as it turned out naively) believed that democracy was a possibility in Taiwan. What they didn’t understand is that it never stood a chance in a global economy where profit reins supreme over human and individual rights. PAP has known that forever.
When DPP foreign supporters/apologists such as yourself and Vorkosigan start sounding like “Gang of Four” anti-capitalistic apparatchiks and many people in the party espousing the same “class warfare” bullshit, then it’s little wonder that the party screwed up so much while governing. Any jackass can tear down an outhouse but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Whether one agrees or disagrees with the PAP’s authoritarian style and I’ve been pretty vocal in my opposition to it, one can not deny that Singapore’s path from a malaria-infesting backwater to a developed country is pretty impressive indeed. Taiwan has never had the same quality of political leaders (although its business leaders have been impressive indeed and Lee Teng Hui was a step above the other political leaders) and certainly not under the DPP. I wouldn’t trust the DPP to run a peanut stand. Leaders around the world listen to Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew even though they might not agree with him on many issues. The same can’t be said for CSB. Snicker Snicker. 
What do you expect? Chen had a whole raft of problems to deal with in his presidency, not least the fact the KMT-PFP controlled legislative frequently voted down his proposals regardless of their quality, China’s bullying and his country’s lack of international recognition.
Put Lee Kuan Yew in that sort of situation and see how he’d fair (it’s a bit difficult to get a good international reputation when you’re banned from visiting important foreign countries). When you have zero effective political opposition and you’re running no more than a city-state, it’s a lot easier to focus on things like the economy. I’m not suggesting the PAP is useless, but without the comfort-zone the PAP has in Singapore, Lee would not be much more successful than Chen was in running Taiwan.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Did he say this and is the translation correct? and this? Just curious.[/quote] Believe it or not, the main point here isn’t whether he did something illegal. The point is that whatever illegal deeds he did do need to be clarified and proven BEFORE he gets locked up. I know some shallow twits out there will somehow think I’m trying to defend A-Bian as being innocent - I’m not, and it’s beside the point. I’m all for putting him away for life if what he did was that heinous that it’s warranted. But obviously, the media did an amazing job of persuading lots of folks that he’s guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt before the actual investigation even started. Here you are taking a few quotes from the internet and expect it to justify locking him up, yet the prosecutors who have unlimited access to all relevant materials have yet to be able to make a case of it. That’s not saying they won’t eventually - but any civilized country would get the facts out first and then prosecute accordingly rather than locking somebody up first and hoping that the facts will eventually justify it.