Frank Hsieh's chances in 2008

Politics Taiwan Politics
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Sorry for being on-topic, but now that Hsieh has quit and says he’ll take a breather from politics, what DO people think of him? I myself wonder if he wasn’t just Chen’s dupe. Not so long ago he was one of the DPP’s big stars. Now he’s on the outside looking in. Did Chen ask him to be premier just to damage his ascendency? Everyone knows the premiership is a can’t-win job. Which leads to the question, why did Hsieh accept the position in the first place? I suspect he was between a rock (Chen) and a hard place. If you say no to your party leader, that will damge your career too.

Now, back off-topic, I also wonder, if the DPP is so currupt as everyone likes to say, why can’t they just buy a couple of equally corrupt blue guys to swing over to the green side and tip the balance in the legislature? I guess the blues are just too upright to be purchased. :wink:

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The premiership is traditionally seen as a stepping stone to the presidency (Chiang Ching-kuo/Lien Chan). The premier has more TV exposure than even the president, and also controls lots of goodies that he can use to build patronage networks.

If Ma wins in 2008, I think this view will finally change as we will have had three former mayors of Taipei become president without being premier. That’s why Soong wants to be da Mayor.

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Now that Hsieh is retired from politics, he should make ammends for his corruption and come clean on his involvement in the K-City MRT scandal.

How can he make ammends to the international community? He should volunteer as a Taiwan Overseas Volunteer for one year.:smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: He could get posted overseas to one of the friendly countries.

He could teach factory bosses on how to abuse foreigners, farmers on how to plant betel nut, government officials on how not to administrate, and HR people on appointing cronies. He could ask some of his or Yu’s cronies in the international development ministry for guidance. After all, the political appointments have such wonderful educational backgrounds and job experiences. The previous job of my former “young advisor” boss? Selling A-bian hats :laughing:

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Err … Lien Chan? :laughing:
Number of premiers: 20+
Number of premiers who have gone on to be prez: 1

But I agree it’s a high profile job which lets you throw some money around. It’s a nightmare job now just because you’re stuck between the president and the legislature. Also when Hsieh took the job it was conceivable that the Lien reign was coming to the end, and there might be some thawing of relations afterwards - hasn’t happened like that though.

Bribing people who are senior members of the richest political party in the history of the universe can be kinda tricky …

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[quote=“Chewycorns”]Taiwan’s economic development was a result of government policy, the populations’ hard work, AND INTERNATIONAL AID. Therefore, the way that the DPP has treated foreigners is especially shameful, particularly by the DPP appararatchiks in Taiwan’s international development agency. The DPP’s lack of loyalty to anyone who is non-Hoklo, their racism, and their hopeless administration skills are doing nothing to benefit Taiwan’s economy.

Considering how Taiwan benefitted from overseas assistance, I find it very interesting that the agency makes foreigners work illegally at lunch and completely violates their human rights. The DPP’S version of the Taiwan Experience is one where foreigners are treated like animals.[/quote]

You’re really hung up on having to work through a few lunch hours, aren’t you? The only reason Taiwan’s government policies contributed to the Taiwan Miracle was because said policies were hand fed to them by the same powers sending them the welfare check and the security blanket. Give credit where credit is due, international aid and hard work by everyone BUT the government.

I have no doubts that you received poor treatment at the hands of moronic DPP “proteges”, and that these ppl should be sent to work in Kaosiung pig farms for 2NT/day. Generalizing this to represent the entire DPP is however, a huge stretch. I have had more than my fair share of run-ins with KMT silver spoon appointees. If you’re only going on everyday experience, then the only valid generalization is that the systemic cronyism that meets you at every single bureaucratic installation in Taiwan applies to ALL the political parties. There’s excellent folks in all the parties, they just get covered up by all the scum. That’s the problem that needs to be fixed before anything gets anywhere.

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[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]
You’re really hung up on having to work through a few lunch hours, aren’t you? [/quote]

Not at all. In fact, in my new job, I work almost every single lunch hour. However, I am treated exactly the same or better than most of the other employees --as I should expect considering my background and on-the-job capabilities. I am rewarded for my hard work and treated fairly. In government, foreigners are exploited. Like you mentioned, I’m sure this treatment has been given by both parties, but the KMT never tried to be the “human rights” party campaigning on clean and honest government. These days, however, I would argue that Ma is the more reformist and international politician and more receptive to the plight of foreigners in Taiwan than any DPP politician.

I’m upset about having to work at many lunch hours within Taiwan’s international development organization because I was never thanked for it. Furthermore, when I stated my displeasure with the working conditions, they told me not to worry. They told me it would be adjusted when I signed the new contract. In other words, they lied to my face. They gave every indication that they were going to renew my contract, gave me an excellent performance review, and then dismissed me with not even so much as an explanation.

[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]

I have no doubts that you received poor treatment at the hands of moronic DPP “proteges”, and that these people should be sent to work in Kaosiung pig farms for 2NT/day. Generalizing this to represent the entire DPP is however, a huge stretch. I have had more than my fair share of run-ins with KMT silver spoon appointees. If you’re only going on everyday experience, then the only valid generalization is that the systemic cronyism that meets you at every single bureaucratic installation in Taiwan applies to ALL the political parties. There’s excellent folks in all the parties, they just get covered up by all the scum. That’s the problem that needs to be fixed before anything gets anywhere.[/quote]

I agree with most of your statement. :bravo: I believe in my previous messages, I have conveyed my deepest respect for the previous Secretary General – a DPP appointment who is now one of Taiwan’s youngest ambassadors abroad. A true “international” and “renaissance” man in every sense. However, the new DPP appointment (a silver spoon appointment – very rich lawyer/fruit company CEO from Tainan who is a campaign contributor I am sure :smiling_imp: ) along with one of Su’s proteges completely lacked any sense of fairplay. These are not nice people and openly espoused cultural relativism in front of me. Su’s protege opened bottles of alcohol in his office and should have been fired immediately.

In any company and in most countries trying to internationalize and attract talent, if you have excellent performance reviews and produce great results, you get promoted. In Taiwan’s government, foreigners get royally screwed. :smiling_imp: The KMT look after the KMT appointments; the DPP look after their own kind. No one gives a damn about foreigners. All my posts have stated that all foreigners, whether you are an LSE graduate such as myself or a Thai laborer from Northern Thailand, will sooner or later get cheated, exploited, and receive no sympathy from within the government ministries.

Furthermore, one would not expect this to happen in international development. Taiwan’s technical and medical missions help many people in various countries. Yet their “home soldiers” are openly racist against foreigners working within their organization. With the exception of a few great people within the organization as you mentioned, these are not nice people, and I hope they don’t con any other foreigners. :noway:

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Chewcorns you said: "These days, however, I would argue that Ma is the more reformist and international politician and more receptive to the plight of foreigners in Taiwan than any DPP politician. ".
The majority maybe, but any?!?!
Hsiao Bi-khim (蕭美琴) might be one DPP exception about the plight of foreigners.

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[quote=“naguoning”]Chewcorns you said: "These days, however, I would argue that Ma is the more reformist and international politician and more receptive to the plight of foreigners in Taiwan than any DPP politician. ".
The majority maybe, but any?!?!
Hsiao Bi-khim (蕭美琴) might be one DPP exception about the plight of foreigners.[/quote]

While she probably cares more about the plight of foreigners than most DPP politicians, I don’t think she will rise much further up the totem pole than she has at the moment. Given the patriarchal nature of Confucian society and her reputation as being “soft”, I don’t think she will ever get a chance to be a “heavyweight” or be able to establish much grassroots support. I see her as being part of the “Tofu” wing of the DPP :raspberry:

Furthermore, she surrounds herself with the dirtier elements within the Party. For example, when I confronted the new Secretary General of Taiwan’s international development agency about my dismissal, he said to me:

I can’t talk with you. I have to meet Hsiao Bi-khim (蕭美琴) at the Grand Hotel. :smiling_imp:

Of course, I think it was for a political event :laughing: However, from my observations, lots of DPP politicians seem to enjoy cavorting on the job…Pasuya Yao of the GIO for one ahahahhahaha :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

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You might be very right about the Toufu wing or being unlikely to rise much further.
I do not disagree if you had said the majority of DPP politicians or the party in general. But than anyone in it (that is a lot of people)… well we all have our own ideas.

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[quote=“Chewycorns”]I agree with most of your statement. :bravo: I believe in my previous messages, I have conveyed my deepest respect for the previous Secretary General – a DPP appointment who is now one of Taiwan’s youngest ambassadors abroad. A true “international” and “renaissance” man in every sense. However, the new DPP appointment (a silver spoon appointment – very rich lawyer/fruit company CEO from Tainan who is a campaign contributor I am sure :smiling_imp: ) along with one of Su’s proteges completely lacked any sense of fairplay. These are not nice people and openly espoused cultural relativism in front of me. Su’s protege opened bottles of alcohol in his office and should have been fired immediately.

In any company and in most countries trying to internationalize and attract talent, if you have excellent performance reviews and produce great results, you get promoted. In Taiwan’s government, foreigners get royally screwed. :smiling_imp: The KMT look after the KMT appointments; the DPP look after their own kind. No one gives a damn about foreigners. All my posts have stated that all foreigners, whether you are an LSE graduate such as myself or a Thai laborer from Northern Thailand, will sooner or later get cheated, exploited, and receive no sympathy from within the government ministries. [/quote]

I think this is the proverbial cultural nail on the head. I don’t care how good someones intentions are, almost anyone who goes into a vastly different environment will get changed by the environment instead of vice versa, ie. the newcomers into Taiwan’s political and economic scene get sucked into the slime and although they might clean it a bit, by far turn to the dark side. Just look at any powerful union enviro in NA or Europe. Of course you aren’t going to complain about 40 weeks holidays a year or appointed to a posh positon if you’re the one getting them/it! It’ll take awhile for the little changes to add up to a big paradigm shift.

Foreigners getting the shaft is a whole other issue. ALL of my experiences in corporate environments (not extremely long, but of a large variety) here are identical, I am a second class “thing”, and even if I did manage to negociate an acceptable area of responsibility and salary package, was still treated as the interesting curio. Might be the nicest, most intelligent boss out there, but they could never get their head around a waiguoren advising them on any of “their” issues, and will shaft me as soon as a local comes along. Which is what you get with CKS and company, actually no it started way before then, drilling “you are Chinese and Chinese are better” down your throat day after day after day…

And I’m really off topic now. In summary, foreigners getting screwed at every level and every environ is the norm, not the exception. That Hsie did it doesn’t surprise me in the least, nor would hearing X’s Taiwanese inlaws did it, or Y’s Taiwanese friend of five years did it. On a micro level its a lot better and macro is slowly improving overall, but I doubt that the macro scene will see any huge leaps forward anytime soon. Nor does it lead me to conclude that Mama Huhu is the solution.

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I would also say this lack of tact when dealing with other nations and individuals is a cultural thing rather than a DPP thing. I’ve often said that one of the things I find most striking about Taiwan is that for most people here, to exploit someone is seen as a badge of honour, to get paid more than you’re really worth is a worthy goal, and to let yourself be exploited because you’re too nice is a form of stupidity. I wasn’t the least bit surprised when I heard of the Kaohsiung MRT riot and subsequent scandal. And I immediately told people that I expected to hear little in the way of apology from anyone involved because they would feel no real shame about what happened. I think I was right about that, wasn’t I? I haven’t really followed the story too closely.

I can add many more examples of this insular Taiwanese attitude.

During the last World Cup, when South Korea made it to the semi-finals, I read in the media (and just assumed) that people all across Asia were cheering them on. I even heard that many Japanese rooted for Korea once Japan was ousted. But here in Taiwan, you could hear a pin drop in the bar after each Korean victory. The level of jouvenile, jealous, bitterness at the Korean success was absolute. Not a single Taiwanese watching in a public place was happy as far as I could see. There wasn’t a breath of a thought that this was a victory for Asia.

Back to the politics… I think his being so Taiwanese in this respect is Chen Shui-bian’s biggest liability. By shutting himself off to all but Taiwanese modes of thinking he has lost a chance to make Taiwan a better place. Ditto for Hsieh I guess. (Can we expect better from Su Tseng-chang?)

Summary:
If those lousy Wai-guo’s complain about children on motorbikes without helmets, the way we treat our domestic help, idiotic Pinyin, and other such things, it’s just because they don’t know how to act like proper guests in our ‘country.’

There were a few good pokes at this attitude in the movie Double Vision. It really made me laugh out loud when I watched it. The director had some insight.

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In my opinion, that is why government officials should be called on their hypocrisy. For example, in Taiwan’s international development agency, large sums of money are spent to publish books, film documentaries etc. that focus on Taiwan’s young professionals in medical and technical missions overseas making a difference in the global community and promoting “civil society” values.

However, if they are so intent on promoting civil society values in their partner countries, why aren’t they practicing these values within their own organization? After producing two of the best annual reports within any of Taiwan’s government ministries (the 2003 and 2004 reports), after gettting an excellent letter of recommendation from Taiwan’s youngest ambassador abroad, and after getting an excellent performance review, why was I summarily dismissed?

I was lied to by HR repeatedly. When I complained over the course of three years about the holiday time, lack of performance bonuses, and lots of other goodies that normal employees get, I was told not to worry. Everything would be fixed when I renewed my contract. They even made me teach their employees “Business English” for two years at lunch for free.

They should film a video called “The TaiwanICDF: Treating our foreign workers like monkeys.”

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Which city were you at when this happen? :unamused:

Anyhow, welcome to wizard of oz (I mean land of ROC). At here, Scarecrows had no brain. Tinmen had no heart. And, most of all, Lions had no courage. Of course, all the lost little girls just have to follow the ugly yellow brick road until… they can find home out of this dream world created by ROC!! :smiley:

Oh, just to rub salt into the wound, South Korean can Build Cars. They can also build top name Brand in the international market. :smiling_imp:

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From a reliable source. Guess what Hsieh is doing now that he is out of a job? He is attending the LSE :smiling_imp: I should write the graduate school a nasty letter detailing my poor treatment by Taiwan’s international development agency and the human rights abuses in the K City MRT riots. I am sure the dean, Max Stauer, would like to hear these stories.

I will tell him about the violations of even the most basic human rights, the lies, and the lack of fairplay that is practiced by Hsieh and Yu.

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[quote=“Chewycorns”]From a reliable source. Guess what Hsieh is doing now that he is out of a job? He is attending the LSE :smiling_imp: I should write the graduate school a nasty letter detailing my poor treatment by Taiwan’s international development agency and the human rights abuses in the K City MRT riots. I am sure the dean, Max Stauer, would like to hear these stories.

I will tell him about the violations of even the most basic human rights, the lies, and the lack of fairplay that is practiced by Hsieh and Yu.[/quote]
As long as he’s paying standard overseas student tuition I don’t think Mr. Stauer will really give a shit.

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[quote=“sandman”][quote=“Chewycorns”]From a reliable source. Guess what Hsieh is doing now that he is out of a job? He is attending the LSE :smiling_imp: I should write the graduate school a nasty letter detailing my poor treatment by Taiwan’s international development agency and the human rights abuses in the K City MRT riots. I am sure the dean, Max Stauer, would like to hear these stories.

I will tell him about the violations of even the most basic human rights, the lies, and the lack of fairplay that is practiced by Hsieh and Yu.[/quote]
As long as he’s paying standard overseas student tuition I don’t think Mr. Stauer will really give a shit.[/quote]

You’re probably right. But I don’t want that “bastard” being lauded for the DPP’s human rights achievements at the LSE. I’ll send letters to every faculty member in the department he gets accepted at, as well as to Stauer (Dean of the Graduate School) and Howard Davies (Director) making sure they know both sides and are aware of the human rights abuses with both my case and with the MRT case. I will also send letters to Soros (LSE’s biggest patron) and to the Thailand and Indonesian Societies within LSE.

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What are those stories? I’m all ears. Come on… spill out the juice details, so you can perhaps done those mother f*ckers in for good! DPP are infested by dumbest retards. I had no doubts on that!! :s

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As long as he’s paying standard overseas student tuition I don’t think Mr. Stauer will really give a shit.[/quote]

That is so true. ROChinese and non-American have to pay 3 times of what I did pay here, so they can hang out with their little Chinese gang and speak in nothing but Chinese! They always asked me retarded things like how come non-Asian Americans would always talk to a Taiwanese like me as if it’s wrong for me to hang out with mostly Americans, who shared by interests!! :unamused:

Of course, they will always tell me sht about how Americans are so dumb unlike us, Han Chinese, when we’re by ourselves. :noway: Of course, I always have to tell them that I’m American. :astonished: On top of that, the top smartest and richest people are Americans. You lived in fcked up country called, ‘ROC’. Another word, go sh*t on people that’s in it!! :loco:

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[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“Chewycorns”]Not a snowballs chance in hell. :smiling_imp:
[/quote][/quote]

I agree with this. He made a strategic blunder by allowing himself to be appointed premier. It’s a terrible job-you get all of the blame and none of the credit.

[quote]

He’d be considered a wuss if he did NOT take the position. Anyway, he did not weather it as well as he could have alghough his xenophobe friends did not make it any easier, I imagine…

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According to Dante, Hell is a frozen place which probably means it has lots of snow and ice. So you must think that Frank has an excellent chance in '08?

From Wikipedia, Dante’s 9th and deepest circle of Hell, for the most evil of the evil:

Ninth Circle. Traitors, distinguished from the “merely” fraudulent, in that their acts involve knowingly and deliberately betraying others, are frozen in a lake of ice known as Cocytus (Cantos XXXII through XXXIV). Each group of traitors is encased in ice to a different height, ranging from only the waist down to complete immersion.