OK, my quest for a cheap family vehicle that can handle rougher county roads has been narrowed down to two vehicles.
In one corner, a 2005 Toyota Zace Surf 1.8L with manual transmission: approx 250,000NT
In the other corner, a 2004 Mitsubishi Freeca 2.0L with automatic transmission: approx 200,000NT (probably even cheaper than that actually)
Both vehicles have (supposedly) low kms and are in good condition w/ warranties (SUM/SAVE). Both have nice leather interiors.
We will be using it to buzz around the hinterlands of Taiwan on wknds and holidays.
Does the Toyota merit the extra price? I dig the manual transmission on the Toyota but the fuel savings may be negated by heavy revving on mountain roads eh? Still, its cheaper to repair a clutch and Toyota quality is well known. Slightly older and cheaper Surfs (1999-2003ish) are out of the question due to totally ghastly and inhospitable interiors so we would have to pony up a bit more for a Toyota.
The Freeca is nice too, has a bit more pep and is a bit roomier. Not sure about its overall quality and resale value though. The Zace is based on the Indonesian market Kijang so it has some history as a reliable workhorse. I cant find any real info or feedback on the Freeca in English. Taxes would be a bit higher per year and overall fuel costs will be higher with the Freeca. Still, we were pleased with the way it rides and handles. Also, given that we were originally wanting to spend around 125,000NT for a car, the Freeca is closer to our price point.
What do y’all think? We will have Jamie check out whatever we decide on.
I think you have already nailed it.
If you prefer luxury, then go with the Mitsubishi, if its residuals and slighty better reliability, then the Toyota.
Really residuals at that budget range are neither here nor there, so get the better quality vehicle, whichever brand it may be.
It will really come down to the individual vehicle you are looking at at that budget range. Brand has little to do with anything at that stage. Only if you were buying newer and more costlier vehicles may I have more input really.
All these vehicles are a horrible height. You won’t be able to park them in the majority of underground parking lots. Even the parking lots that advertise a generous headroom can sometimes catch you out with a low I-beam or newly installed roller-shutter.
I can tell you precisely how much it costs to repair the caved-in roof of a Surf.
Let’s assume I will avoid driving in Taipei City at all costs! The parking garage at our community in Danshui is tall enough for small delivery trucks so we’ll be ok.
Also, what year Freeca did you have and what problems did you encounter? Was it made in Vietnam, China, Taiwan or Phillipines?
Dogs_breakfast has a Freeca [strike]Van[/strike] Edit:station waggon/estate (or, for maximum Harris-Tweediness, “shootingbrake”) and a Zace truck, (both manuals) and IIRC recently reported having a much better reliability experience with the Zace. These were I think about a decade older than the one’s you are looking at, though.
I thought all Surf’s were auto’s pretty much by definition, so its useful to know that’s not the case.
Redwagon: I prefer manual actually, especially considering the glorified motorcycle engines they put in those things. The old lady doesnt like the idea so much but she’ll come around I’m sure The only thing I don’t like is it seems from past experience that trucks with manual transmissions always seem to run at higher RPM’s in high gear and are noisier at highway speeds. I suppose they are generally geared lower?
Ed: I’ve found three Surfs with sticks in the 2 or 3 weeks I’ve been looking. There are a lot more automatics but I think there are plenty of manuals out there too. I don’t think they are popular in Taiwan - the salesmen always seem almost apologetic about it.
[quote=“Ducked”]Dogs_breakfast has a Freeca Van and a Zace truck, (both manuals) and IIRC recently reported having a much better reliability experience with the Zace. These were I think about a decade older than the one’s you are looking at, though.
I thought all Surf’s were auto’s pretty much by definition, so its useful to know that’s not the case.[/quote]
Hi, just saw this post. Yes, the Zace is so reliable it’s almost boring. The damn Freeca is anything but “boring.” OK, not really horrible, but still a pain. Little things keep breaking. The electrical things seem to be especially unreliable: turn-signal switch, the radio, internal light switches, air-con, etc. I don’t know about electronic ignition - mine has a carburetor. Lots of rattles. Rear leaf spring broke (I didn’t hit anything to cause that). Wheels on ALL Freecas are out of alignment when sold new (a used one should have that fixed). Terrible turning radius. Gas mileage sucks, and it requires 95 octane (even if the owner’s manual says 92).
[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”][quote=“Ducked”]Dogs_breakfast has a Freeca Van and a Zace truck, (both manuals) and IIRC recently reported having a much better reliability experience with the Zace. These were I think about a decade older than the one’s you are looking at, though.
I thought all Surf’s were auto’s pretty much by definition, so its useful to know that’s not the case.[/quote]
Hi, just saw this post. Yes, the Zace is so reliable it’s almost boring. The damn Freeca is anything but “boring.” OK, not really horrible, but still a pain. Little things keep breaking. The electrical things seem to be especially unreliable: turn-signal switch, the radio, internal light switches, air-con, etc. I don’t know about electronic ignition - mine has a carburetor. Lots of rattles. Rear leaf spring broke (I didn’t hit anything to cause that). Wheels on ALL Freecas are out of alignment when sold new (a used one should have that fixed). Terrible turning radius. Gas mileage sucks, and it requires 95 octane (even if the owner’s manual says 92).
Just for your info.
cheers,
DB[/quote]
The plastics on the Mitsubishis are definitely not as nice as on the Toyotas. The rear leaf springs can break on all models however and is due to fatigue. Worn out dampers/shocks can help add to the cause too. On that budget however I would be taking the overall condition mostly into consideration regarding these two. I would still take a Mitsubishi in good condition over a Toyota in worse condition. Finding good condition vans at that price range is tough. I’ve had customers that have tried in vein and given up.
Let’s assume I will avoid driving in Taipei City at all costs! The parking garage at our community in Danshui is tall enough for small delivery trucks so we’ll be ok.
Also, what year Freeca did you have and what problems did you encounter? Was it made in Vietnam, China, Taiwan or Phillipines?[/quote]
I’m not sure where it was made as it was a rental (came with the driver). Poor quality seats, uncomfortable ride, thirsty (although the driver could have been nicking the gas) and they just aren’t as big inside as they look from the outside.
Sulavaca, got a techie question for you about the Freeca.
Mine has manual steering (that’s right, no power steering - very few like that in Taiwan). Not long ago, the steering suddenly felt stiff. Looked underneath and didn’t see anything unusual. I thought it might be the steering gear, or maybe not enough oil inside the steering gear box (and that oil has never been replaced). But before I could get around to checking it, the stiffness went away. I thought I was imagining it, but my wife noticed too. Any ideas what could cause that? Anything I should check, lest it fall apart suddenly on the road?
[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”]Sulavaca, got a techie question for you about the Freeca.
Mine has manual steering (that’s right, no power steering - very few like that in Taiwan). Not long ago, the steering suddenly felt stiff. Looked underneath and didn’t see anything unusual. I thought it might be the steering gear, or maybe not enough oil inside the steering gear box (and that oil has never been replaced). But before I could get around to checking it, the stiffness went away. I thought I was imagining it, but my wife noticed too. Any ideas what could cause that? Anything I should check, lest it fall apart suddenly on the road?
Thanks in advance,
DB[/quote]
A difficult one to diagnose online this one, but I’ll throw out some guesses.
Obviously the most common cause of steering stiffness is low tyre pressures.
In no particular order of common failure also check:
A partially siezed ball joint which has now worked itself loose again. (Check lubrication and boot fittings)
Check steering column bearings.
Check track rod connections for excessive wear or split rubber boots. These are the most common faults on every make and model of vehicle I check in Taiwan.
Check steering rack and pinion for excessive play.
If your tyres are showing excessive wear on one or both sides of the tread, then you may have excessive wear to the steering or suspension fittings.
If your steering does not easily straighten up and return after turning, then you perhaps have some issue with the ball joints or steering rack/box.
I’m not certain about yours, but many older vehicles [especially commercial] before power steering fittements and even shortly after offer grease points/nipples in the system. Make sure these are lubed often if available. They may be ignored if using local service centres.
[quote=“sulavaca”][quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”]Sulavaca, got a techie question for you about the Freeca.
Mine has manual steering (that’s right, no power steering - very few like that in Taiwan). Not long ago, the steering suddenly felt stiff. Looked underneath and didn’t see anything unusual. I thought it might be the steering gear, or maybe not enough oil inside the steering gear box (and that oil has never been replaced). But before I could get around to checking it, the stiffness went away. I thought I was imagining it, but my wife noticed too. Any ideas what could cause that? Anything I should check, lest it fall apart suddenly on the road?
Thanks in advance,
DB[/quote]
Check steering rack and pinion for excessive play.
.[/quote]
Dunno, (and not to detract from Sulavaca’s advice) but it might not be a rack and pinion setup on those vehicles, and you seem to imply that it isn’t. A worm and roller steering box, usually filled with hypoid gear oil (which IIRC you have to smelly excess) is/was quite common on old/off-road/truckoid things, with a recirculating ball and nut as a more sophisticated option. My Lada had the former, and there was some provision for adjusting the free play to compensate for wear, (I think an adjusting nut and/or shim removal, though I can’t remember the details now.) Steering was always a bit vague and heavy.
Dunno what would be particularly likely to cause transient binding in a steering box (IF thats what it was) but checking the oil would seem a logical start.
Thanks both (Sulavaca & Ducked) for advice on my steering problem with the Freeca. Still haven’t investigated it yet, as the Chinese New Year chaos is upon us.
A little history (if anyone cares)…very few manual steering Freecas exist, and I do wonder if steering parts are even available for them. We bought ours new about 13 years ago. At the time, Mitsubishi was advertising it for only NT$420,000. The catch was when you went to the dealership, you couldn’t actually buy one at that price. That was a “basic model” which they didn’t really produce, though you could order one from the factory (and wait months for it). Or you could pay NT$520,000 for a model they had in stock, with all the fancy trimmings, and drive it off the lot the same day. The dealer was more than a little surprised when we said that we’d place the factory order and wait. So this we did, and three months later, it was ready. No power steering, no power anything, just a serviceable van. Well, not so serviceable - “quality control” is just a slogan with Mitsubishi. I regret I didn’t buy a Toyota Zace van instead. Actually I wanted to, but the boxy (at that time) Toyota Zace didn’t appeal to my wife. Freeca was the first “modern” van sold in Taiwan, though a year later Toyota remodeled the Zace and ended Mitsubishi’s monopoly.
I just gave up an excellent deal on a FREECA ROYAL EXCEED on the advice of my long time Taiwanese mechanic who told me to save up for a second hand SURF.
He was saying that all models of FREECA have some sort of computer problem that leaves drivers stranded after it pooches out.
Also, build quality does not approach Toyota in general.
This pisses me off a bit because their are TONS of FREECAs all over Taiwan and because the second hand value of a SURF is already over-inflated because of the Toyota brand, you can get a comparable FREECA for -in some cases- half of what you’d pay for a SURF.
Seems like these vehicles might justify performance upgrades better than, for example, cars that can already do “100kph in almost EXACTLY 6 seconds dead!!!” stock (Teana thread) but I suppose thats not likely to happen.
Go-faster folks wouldn’t buy these, and those that do wouldnt have the interest, expertise, or money.
Out of curiosity, are there any off-the-shelf (more realistically, out-of-the-scrapyard) performance upgrades that would bolt-on, since customisation is even less likely? There should be plenty of room.
IIRC the Delica 4X4 is a turbo, but AFAIK they are all diesel and its the petrol engine that’s shared with the Freeca.
[quote=“sedition”]I just gave up an excellent deal on a FREECA ROYAL EXCEED on the advice of my long time Taiwanese mechanic who told me to save up for a second hand SURF.
He was saying that all models of FREECA have some sort of computer problem that leaves drivers stranded after it pooches out.
Also, build quality does not approach Toyota in general.
[/quote]
I confirm that build quality doesn’t match Toyota in general.
I haven’t seen the alleged computer problem, but it’s probably only on fuel-injected models. If you’re determined to buy a Freeca, look for an early model (circa 1998) which had carburetors.
The only thing I don’t like is it seems from past experience that trucks with manual transmissions always seem to run at higher RPM’s in high gear and are noisier at highway speeds. I suppose they are generally geared lower?