I was working in a buxiban marking exam papers 3 months ago. The place was raided by the foreign affairs police and I was taken to the police station to be interviewed. The cousin of the owner of the buxiban came with me to act as an interpretor. We told the police that I was just visiting a friend and that he asked me to help but i didn’t receive any payment. At the end of the interview both the police chief and the owners cousin told me there was no problem and that it would all go away.
I quit the school shortly after this and recently started working in another school who applied for and got me an ARC. Today i recieved a letter from the police saying that I have 14 days to leave Taiwan because of the problem in the buxiban that happened 3 months ago.
Is there anything I can do? Can i appeal the decision? It seems really weird that between my visit to the copshop and now i’ve been able to leave taiwan for a visa run and get an ARC without any problems then all of a sudden i’m getting kicked out the country.
I’d really appreciate any help anyone can give me.
i left on good terms with the school. I went back to see them about it and they have been fined 150,000NT so i don’t think they’d have tried to screw me.
This is the second report that I have heard of this.
Someone gets busted for working illegally. Everything seems okay and then months later they get deported.
It seems that the police may be taking a harder line on all of this. Why they don’t do it at the time you are actually caught is beyond me, but it does seem that it may be a good time to remind people to ensure that they are legal.
I agree with another poster. Speak with the guys at ML McLean. They may know something about this.
Thanks all. In touch with OP. There seems to be no appeal process and that decisions by NPA are final. Will look into this as quickly as possible given the 14 days notice.
On our to-do-list is to better understand this issue given that we understand the Taipei City departments are becoming stricter going forward. Hope to have some more insight into this for the community over the next few weeks.
On a side note, our office is currently moving but will still be in the Zhonghe/YongAn Market MRT area. All other contact information remains the same:
Email: immigration at ml-mclean.com or info at ml-mclean.com
Phone: 02-6620-5062 / 02-6620-5251
Maybe the following can be a sticky or put someplace prominently. We’ll try to get something on our website about this as soon as we can.
I’d like to summarize some of the conversations I’ve had with the Taipei City NPA FAP folks about these working and deportation issues.
No appeal on deportation decisions. The Taipei police are simply going by the book on these cases. So when they make their raids, they basically see what kind of documentation you have for being in Taiwan and compare that with what you’re doing at the time you were found by the police.
Illegally working. What does that mean? The basic rule that the FAP follow is, are you doing what your visa in Taiwan says you’re supposed to be doing?
If you are on a visitor’s visa, you have no business being in a school, unless you can show that the school has processed or is processing your work permit papers. If the school cannot show the police this paperwork, you are out of luck and you will be busted for illegally working on a visitor’s visa. A visitor’s visa is for “tourist” purposes.
If you are on a student visa, you should be in a school learning what you’re supposed to be learning. You have no business near a school unless you can show that you have business there on invitation, permission by the school and the school can show paperwork to that effect.
If you have a work ARC for say Hess Shilin Branch, the police does not want to see you working at say a Hess Banqiao Branch. That is illegally working. You work according to what’s on your paperwork/ARC, and that is specific to a business location (e.g. Hess Shilin Branch). The police however, understand that schools do this all the time to teachers, meaning they know teachers get switched from place to place (especially by the large chains). However, under their rules and regulations and their understanding of the law, that’s illegally working and teachers shouldn’t do that.
I had explained to the police some of the tricks and techniques that schools would employ and they were aware of some of it, and not aware of others. The usual one about using a 60-day visitor’s visa as a window to change one’s status is a technique the police do not like and want to close down on completely. They are naturally concerned given the bigger picture on how this affects the English/teaching business but not sure what they can do. It’s a start of further discussions and education on both sides. The NPA FAP is only a small part of the big picture but at least we can try to make them aware of the concerns of English teachers.
If anyone has something to share regarding the English teaching side of things, our office would love to hear from so that we can take your concerns to the people who need to understand them. Please send us your concerns (anonymously is fine too) to info@ml-mclean.com.
Good information. It’s good to hear what ‘the other side’ are thinking.
I think that this is a concern though:
I assume that you are talking about the process of arriving on a 60 day visitors visa, finding work and then converting this into a resident visa while in Taiwan. I don’t see this as a trick but more as common sense practice that seem to be to everyones benefit. Can you clarify what the police mean by the effect upon the industry?
What is the alternative? For teachers to commit to schools before coming and for schools to commit to teachers before meeting them?
The only way to do this is for the teacher or the school to pay for the teacher to come here first for an inteview and then return at a later date on the resident visa. Which isn’t very practical.
Of for schools and teachers to use email and phone to make arrangements, sign a contract, apply for the work permit, and then have the teacher arrive on a resident visa.
From your talks, what was the FAP proposing as an alternative to the current process, which as I say seems to be in everyones best interests.
But this is how almost every foreigner ever employed in Taiwan got their resident visa and work permit. MOFA happily issue the new resident visa in Taipei, and then you get your ARC. How else could it be done? When I asked the British TRO they said they had never done a work permit/resident visa application from abroad (in 2000) and that you should get a visitor visa and do it in Taipei.
The European Chamber of Commerce asked the government this very question after the government seemed to be suggesting that it would no longer accept RV applications from people on visitor visas. Of course they got no meaningful reply, but that’s how people are getting their RVs now, isn’t it? Or are they no longer issuing resident visas in Taiwan? Is that why everyone I meet on the High Speed Rail is contracting instead of doing the resident visa thing?
You’re right. This was discussed. When I first started to understand this process used in Taiwan, my immediate reaction was, “this is a work around”. This was based on my understanding of US immigration laws and regulations. However, I felt that immigration laws, philosophically, are pretty much the same throughout the world. And based on my discussions with the NPA, my initial suspicions are correct. The current use of the 60-day visitor’s visa process exists because the current method in which foreign workers come to Taiwan is totally broken.
Yes, this is the preferred method and one that is legal and is documented.
It isn’t practical, I agree. However, from the NPA point of view, that’s what they’d prefer to see. Also, it’s well documented on the MOFA/BOCA websites (and other printed docs) that work-based resident visas are an option for entering into Taiwan. If you have a legitimate work invitation, then you SHOULD BE USING THAT METHOD. That’s the law. Only the large MNC types follow this it seems. Most other people don’t. They make status changes while in Taiwan.
My feeling is that this is preferred if possible to accomplish. The reason is this: you are entering into Taiwan on legitimate pretexts, not on false pretexts. Not only that, but when folks come to us to evaluate their visa/immigration status problems, the first point of analysis starts from “how did you enter Taiwan, what is your status?” Why? Because that’s how the Taiwan government agencies do it. Depending on how you entered Taiwan, it colors their view on your case. I don’t quite understand it totally but that’s how it is.
It never got to that point. And my connections do not rise high enough to even really discuss these points. The folks I’m in touch with are the ones who are supposed to enforce the law as they understand it. They don’t have much leeway to propose policy changes. That would be for another time and place.
As I mentioned in my last post to brian, the “proper” procedure and one that is as I believe envisioned by the immigration authorities (that includes MOFA, NPA), you apply for the RV at your TECO office. This process is documented in almost all the information our office has regarding “how does one enter Taiwan?” The reason why this isn’t done is because the current work around of come to Taiwan first and then apply for your status change and get an RV is so common place and practical.
From our experience, foreign wives married to ROC Nationals are asked to follow a similar route. Get to Taiwan first and then change to an RV. However, they have the choice to apply for the RV from their home country, get all the paper work done beforehand and then enter Taiwan. Thus, by-passing all the other follow up documentary submissions needed if you came in on the Visitor’s Visa first.
The High Speed Rail project is a situation which business needs is outpacing the government’s ability to process the paperwork fast enough to allow workers to work here. The work around is to allow them to be “foreign based” contractors and technically not under the domain of Taiwan so long as you make your 60-day visa jumps.
The other problem with the Taiwan High Speed Rail is that the work permit process is cumbersome. It requires a long and lengthy certification and authentication process which the employee must do with his/her qualifications. This can take WEEKS and great expense which doesn’t help the employee nor the employer. So, the work permit process breaks down and everyone not from Taiwan working on the THSR project are “foreign based” contractors.
I manged to make an appeal against the deportation order. But it was a painful, painful affair and there’s no way i could have done without my Taiwanese girlfriends help. In total we submitted around 20 pages of documents most of which had to be translated from English to Chinese.
I have also applied for a extension to stay in Taiwan while my appeal is heard. However this takes up to 5 days for a decision to be made and i only have 3 working days left. So today I went to the labour affairs office and got a stamp to show that i had submitted an appeal and I had requested an extenion.
I took the stamp to the FAP in Banchiao and they have given me another 14 days to stay.
I will keep everyone updated as to what eventually happens
Thanks spunkymonkey for the update. It will be interesting to see how you go with this. Please keep us update and also think about putting together a list of how to go about appealing the order as it seems that others are going to need this information in the near future.
Taiwan gets a bashing for its beauracracy a lot, and often this abuse is well deserved. The above is a very interesting account of how the system can work if you know how to get it to work for you.
Here you have a guy who was busted for working illegally. No question about that. Despite this, the government seems willing to work through a process giving this person the right to appeal. First off there is an appeals process available. The CLA are willing to give a stay on the deportation order, and the FAP are willing to give a visa extension. I am sure that none of this would have been easy to secure, and I applaud spunkymonkey (and his girlfriend) for his perseverance in ensuring that he gets the rights that are entitled to him.
The FAP in Banchiao have now cancelled my ARC and are refusing to give me the extension they promised. I’m still waiting to hear from the CLA with regards to staying in Taiwan while the appeal process goes on so unfortunately I have to leave Taiwan tomorrow.
Going to try for a student visa in Bangkok. If that works out i’ll still be able to stay while I wait for the appeal to run it’s course.
Whatever happens I’ll let everyone know how the appeal turns out and when i get time i’ll post some links to the appeal forms and let everyone konw who they need to speak to and where to send their appeal if they find themselves in a similar situation
I am going through the same hassle right now and the system is really screwed up. I was doing a demo for a school that was getting busted for having a Day Care permit, but running like a cram school. I didn’t know this before the raid and assumed I would be getting a work permit if I got the job. Since demos are illegal, I was given 14 days to leave as well. They don’t believe the demo story and just feel you are teaching.
We have been calling everyone and I always get different answers as what is going to happen or what I should do. The police are saying I can’t come back to Taiwan for five years and never work here again. The FAP says just go to Hong Kong and back.
I am applying for an appeal also, but if I leave then there is no way of really knowing if I will be let back in to Taiwan. I can’t really afford to be flying home and back or pay for a visa that is not going to help me back. All my stuff is here, so if I am not let back in then I am really screwed. oI am preparing for the worst, so I had to sell my scooter and I will have to get somebody to rent my room. I will have to ship my things back home.
The whole thing is quite harsh for just doing a demo. Like I said the system is screwed; even if the appeal goes through I have already lost my job, lost money moving back home and shipping things, lost my apartment, no scooter, and a 20,000nt flight away…
What has been going on with you two? Please, please, PLEASE give us an update on your status.
A friend is currently at the beginning of the same process and it would be very helpful to know what has happened in your case.
Does anyone know if this thread has been moved somewhere else? It seems inconceivable to me that everyone has stopped discussing this!! Maybe some of it was lost when Forumosa moved?
If anyone has an update or any new information, it would be EXTREMELY helpful. I will also start posting details of my friends case, if anyone feels it would be helpful… It’s very similar to Spunkey and Toufu-ren’s.
I tried to prepare for the worse: I packed all my things and was planning to send them home, but just didn’t have the time. So I really did need to get back to tie up some loose ends.
I am in Bangkok now and I got my visa today. It is a limited one though. No extensions, single entry, and it has a note saying that working is prohibited. I fly into Taipei tomorrow, so I will see if I get any hassle. I am also hearing that the police will still ask you to leave even with the new visa. It looks like Spunkeymonkey got out of it because of his appeal and he doesn’t live in the city. I have an appeal, but I do live in the city.
I will update when I have more info.
Just a reminder to all who are reading this forum to get ready to move to Taiwan and teach.
A lot of schools here do not follow the law and will ask you to do illegal things. If you are caught, the school won’t help you and you will have to face the hassles on your own.
Thanks so much for the update. I have a friend going through a similar situation right now and it is really helpful to hear about what other have gone through. I wish you the best of luck in your flight back from Thailand. Hopefully, we can find a way to make this work for you as well.
What is the distinction between you working in the city and Spunkey working outside of the city?? It seems you said that his appeal had been accepted!? How did this happen? Does anyone know Spunkey and have his email address? I need to know how to contact him. Please let us know if possible. Anything he has gone through could help to save my friend- literally.
Overall, this is really an issue which affects EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. The fact is that 90% of foreigners work illegally in Taiwan. Any of us could be deported for any variety of reasons. If the government feels they need to crack down on illegal workers: fine. But, do so in the right way, not just randomly lashing out at any white face they see in the school. I love Taiwan and this is just wrong. This country can do better- and usually does.
A brief overview on what happened to my friend:
He is working entirely legally at a buxiban. He did a friend a favor and substituted a class a couple of months ago. The police came. They acted extremely friendly and simply asked him to sign a few documents in Chinese. They said everything would be ok. The police and owner of the school also asked him to please write a statement in English saying he was substituting classes. He, quite innocently, did as he was told.
Everyone said it was ok and nothing would happen. Two months later, he receives a letter saying he needs to leave the country in 14 days.
This entirely unacceptable and wrong on every level possible: morally, rationally and practically.
Anyway, if anyone has information on other who have gone through a similar situation, please let us know.