Getting kicked out - HELP!

The same thing happened to me on September 16th.

My school saw the police at the door and didn’t let them in until they hid 3 of us. They searched the classrooms, then talked to the supervisor. After about 15-20 minutes, she tells us to come out of hiding and go back to the classrooms. We ask if the police have left and she says “No.”

(this was when that little voice in my head said, “Don’t go out there!”)

I should listen to my little voice more often. So we go out, ‘observe’ the class for 4 minutes, and then we are told that the police want to talk to us.

The little voice pops up again, but silly me, I trust my supervisor! We chat it up with the police, then they say they want to check our ID’s at the police station. This was at 5:30PM on a Friday evening.

(fast forward)

It’s 1:30am and after interrogating us, making us wait, and feeding us supper(BK), we write up a statement with the police and are asked to sign the document in Chinese.

For all those people who said, “You shouldn’t have signed!”, I know that I shouldn’t have, but after 8 hours in there with pressure from your boss and the police saying that it’s okay, don’t worry, why don’t you trust us, and them threatening to re-interrogate me and/or deporting me that night, you’d crack too. They also said that at this point, the boss has to pay the fine and that’s it.

So I signed.

Fast forward to November 2nd, I get THE LETTER. We(the 3 of us) are working with the school to see if this can be reversed. I’m not overly optimistic, nor do I trust the school anymore(unless the decision goes our way :wink: )

I would recommend that you talk to everyone and anyone Taiwanese, because there is the chance that one of them will know “the right person”. We’ve gotten a lot of information this way that we never would have otherwise.

I am expected to leave the country by November 15th if the decision doesn’t go through, so I’m all packed up if the worst happens.

I’ve learned that:
-my boss didn’t pay the fine! I was told that it could have been a reason that we got the letters. She has no intention of paying.
-never leave your hiding spot or run like the wind!
-the police cannot keep you at the police station for more than 3 hours at the police station. Hold out till then and you are free to go; they cannot restrain you.
-some other stuff too, but I just woke up!

I’ll keep you posted, but I’m 99.999% sure that I won’t be here for Christmas… sigh

Hi, sorry to hear this news-but it is a good lesson for all of us to think through this situation beforehand. Hope everything goes well with you.

What other stuff did you learn?

So, if you work at a school illegally and they take you to the police station…You just wait 3 hours and its like nothing ever happened?

So you mean you were caught working without a visa. No appeal rights it seems.

And you have actually admitted working illegally… oops :blush:

Really, who told you that? Too bad when you try to walk out and they cuff you to the rail on the wall. :help: :help:

I hope you all get visa’s to come back and visit. :smiley: :smiley: Just get your work pemit before stepping up the the plate. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Maybe it’s best if you don’t post on this topic as you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

I do have an appeal right as my appeal is being processed now

Another update!

I got back in to the country with out any problems on a student visa. However a few days after I arrived an administrator from the Ximending FAP called me up and said that I would have to leave within 10 days. I argued for a long time but she was insistent

Eventually I got my girlfriend to call the administrator. First she tried to get my girlfriend to change my address form Taipei county to Taipei city so that I would have to go to that FAP rather than the Banqiao one. And then she said that my appeal had failed, it hadn’t, she was just lying.

My girlfriend threatened to get a lawyer involved and then she started backpedaling. Instead of 10 days she said I could have 3 months for the appeal to run its course.

I’m not really sure what the Ximending FAP were playing at as it seems very strange that they were so determined to kick me out and then suddenly give me 3 months to stay.

Apparently they get bonuses for the number of foreigners they deport so perhaps she was just trying it on. I very much doubt it was an act of kindness!!

Anyway the student visa I got was non-extendable so I’ve had to go to the ministry of foreign affairs to request an extendable visa. I find out on Monday what they say and let everyone know

Hope all your visa problems get sorted

it would be nice to know why they are so gung-ho on you signing the paper. is it more that they don’t have a leg to stand on otherwise, which would suggest that it could be in your interest to tough it out and not sign, or merely that from their viewpoint it will simplify the following legal proceedings, where it most likely wouldn’t make a difference. i would tend to suspect the latter.

Thanks very much for the update Spunkey.
A lot of people are going through the same thing right now, but you are further along in the process, so it’s really helpful to hear how things turn out for you.

What makes you think they get bonuses for deportations? Was that a joke, or did someone actually say something along those lines?

Do you have any feeling at this point as to how your appeal will go? Everything I am hearing is not encouraging.

Keep us updated!!

This seems to be the root of a lot of problems, the fact that the right hand of the government doesn’t seem to know what the left hand is doing.

How silly that one office can give you a visa and another try to take it away from you!

I doubt this. Surely if it were true then a whole lot more foreigners would be getting deported as there are clearly lots of cases where a deportation could be justified but is not instituted. I have heard a lot of good things about the FAP in Taipei and my personal experiences certainly back this up.

If it was all about quotas and bonuses as you suggest and she was out for the money then I doubt that she would have backed down so readily!

Thanks for the update though. First hand experiences are really very valuable.

Well, don’t trust the police…but we all know that, right? :fume:

The police officer assigned to the case decided to call me to make sure that I was on my way out…apparently he couldn’t reach either one of my co-workers.

Anyway, I was informed (by a friend of a friend of the police) that I must give them my passport and ticket. Since my boss had no intention of paying the fine, they could stop me at the border, and detain me until it was paid. Since I had no intention to pay my boss’ fine, I co-operated and now there is a stamp on my passport saying that I have to leave on Monday.

It gets better…

On Thursday, my boss gets the appeal done. The one that usually takes 2-3 months took her 1 week. She’s been getting a lot of guanxi from somewhere…I don’t know. They actually overturned the decision and we can stay!!!

Now comes the best part…

I still have to leave because I have a stupid stamp in my passport!!!

Go figure that I’m the only foreigner that could stay after a raid and deportation order and blew it.

Now my boss says that I should just leave and come back in under a spousal visa. We can sort it out when I get back. I would put in a rant about my boss, but I think that my whole posting would get deleted!!!

I’m fed up over the last 2 weeks and I’m going home. It feels like I’ve gone through 7 years of puberty(the angst and ups-and-downs) since I received that letter. I don’t regret coming here at all, and this will make for a good story one day…but today is not the day!

Thanks for listening!

Well, think on the American TV shows…they can only keep you for a certain amount of time in jail without charging you. Then they have to let you go. So, after 3 hours, if they haven’t done anything, then you are entitled to walk out.

I’d still recommend having a lawyer to back you up, as I’m sure that the police would deny it and say you had to stay.

No joking about the cuffs on the metal bar!!! I saw 2 bars there with the handcuffs just dangling there, waiting for my wrist…

OH!!! THE HORRORS!!!

The police get 1 point for feeding us Burger King for dinner.
The police get -5938 points for keeping us waiting so long…and another -250 points for carting in (and drinking!) Taiwan beer. I didn’t see them drinking, but you know they weren’t using it for decoration!

Thanks for the update Canadian.

It’s great news that the appeal was upheld!!
Do you know what approach your boss took to the appeal?
If you could find out what she did, it would be very helpful to those people who are just beginning this process. Thanks!

You shouldn’t leave if you had planned on staying here. It’s a shame that this happened to you, but Taiwan is a great place and there is nothing wrong with us fighting to change a few things. There are plenty of things which go on in our country that we don’t like either.

Why then do the police bother turning up at schools at all? Surely if they are accountable to no-one, they can pick names off the computer at random.

This is what I suspect. I suspect that there is a burden of proof on the police and that there are rights for the prisoner which the police are desperate to keep hidden. I say “prisoner”, but it appears people are never actually arrested. I mean if I was a cop I’d rather someone signed a confession than have to gather evidence and push paper across desks.

It is likely that part of the motivation behind the police raids is to enforce the law on immigration as it is written. Is is very likely that much of the effort is directed towards improving the image of area politicians and preventing scandal. Parents don’t like finding out such and such a school was unlicensed after, say, a kid has an accident at the school, or some other such thing likely to lose the area Politico the election. Thus, raids must be conducted against a school likely to yield up to police teachers who are working illegally.

They don’t raid the big chain schools with such regularity, as great effort is expended to make sure the teachers are legit, and they tend to have their papers in order. Raids conducted against smaller schools, or schools inexperienced in hiring foreigners, schools with weaker guanxi, or clearly unlicensed schools are more likely to yield illegal teachers.

Raiding schools is effective for several reasons. It results in the foreigner getting screwed, and a fine for the school. The fine for the school can be dealt with in whatever fashion is agreed between the police and the school. The foreigner can be disposed of without too much worry, as no-one important will go out of their way to help, nor be angered if the person is deported (except perhaps some short-term frustration on the part of some parents: “Grrr. Why was my kid’s teacher illegal?” Rare.). In any case, the law is being seen to be enforced, and very few politicians get criticised for that. Raids may also have the effect of increasing compliance with the law (more taxes) or alternatively, bigger hong baos to the local cops and fire dept, although I see no evidence of that.

The upshot, is that no-one particularly likes raids and deportations. They come in waves (the first I remember being in September 1992 when the FAP finally worked out the Employment Services Act 1989) depending on bonuses, and political campaigns. The mayorships of Taipei City and Taipei County are up for grabs at the moment. Immigration enforcement is a huge issue in Taipei County, and nationally. The teaching of English, and the whole concept of foreign languages and what the fuck language should we speak in Taiwan anyway, is a huge political hot potato.

The point for the teacher is to remember you are just a pawn in all of this. You need to be quick to assess whether you can make yourself a big enough pain in the arse for the fuzz to drop this. Quoting the law is one way. I have quoted the law to various senior members of government over immigration issues and for every law I quote, they produce an internal guidance instruction that contradicts it. On the other hand, I have found using guanxi (including with other foreigners) can result in having things turn out the way I wanted despite a seemingly hopeless legal situation.

Will the school go to bat for you? If they have made a mistake, rather than, say, putting you through another school for tax or work permit headcount reasons, they have a good argument to make along the lines of “Oh so many regulations, look we have our certificate from the fire department, and local police, and our business licence, we pay tax, we are so sorry, the work permit rules are so complicated, we tried…” I have seen this argument work three times at two different large national chains in cases of foreign teachers with erroneous ARCs. Each time the key was the otherwise flawless legality of the school, and the meticulous (but erroneous) application for the work permit, as well as the correct and timely payment of business taxes, and the personal icome tax registration of the teacher. In a case where the school will get into a long discussion with the FAP and you believe they are trying to help you, all hop is not lost. I would advise not talking to the FAP without someone from the shool with you in a case like that. If the school plays its cards right, the FAP will move on to the next target school on their list. Perhaps they have nothing more on the school than some agent of a rival school made a suggestion that there were illegal workers at the school and they have nothing on any one teacher in particular. Could turn out that your school’s guanxi are better than the complaining school’s.

If the school seems happy to pay the NT$150k or whatever it is nowadays, and cut you loose, then you are of course on your own. As has been advised before, the best route is to sign nothing, and certainly don’t give up your passport. If that’s all you’ve got, (no ARC) then you really are screwed and I don’t know what you could say other than I wasn’t teaching, but I don’t feel comfortable advising on how to hoodwink the police. If you really were just there for an interview, say, then all you can do is tell the truth. I would imagine there is no provision for interviews being acceptable due to the difficulty of proof, but written records of appointments may help. If you have an ARC but there is a problem with it, then the only possible argument is that you have done everything you could to try and be legal. You have to pose the question how you are supposed to verify and compare documents written in a language you don’t understand, and isn’t it the school’s responsibility to make sure your documentation is correct? This is one reason I dislike schools which charge the applicants visa processing fees because that could be used as an argument to distance the school from its responsibility to properly process the application. It would be a weak argument, but when it looks like you are going down for teaching illegally you are in the realm of weak arguments.

Remember also that even if the FAP want to do you, the sanctions can vary depending on their mood and the phases of the moon. Try and simply get your ARC cancelled. You are supposed to leave within 14 days, but the FAP might want you to leave right away. On a technical note, very few people actually get deported, as such. Deportation involves being taken to the airport by the police in a police car, and escorted onto the plane where your passport is returned to you. In the few cases I know of (all involving non-English-teachers) the prisoners were locked up in a detention centre first and the employer was made to pay the air fare to the country of nationality. That is actual deportation (chu zhu chu jing). So negotiate and say nothing. I am not sure how much use getting a lawyer is unless you can find one that actually deals with administrative measures on a daily basis.

The Appeal: Should we assume that that was an appeal against the action taken against her, or did it include an appeal on your behalf in respect of the measures taken (or to be taken) against you? I know the ramifications of the appeal would affect you, but were you an actual party to the appeal? I ask because I have been repeatedly told there is no immigration appeals process in Taiwan (and indeed no initial judicial hearing which could give rise to an appeal) which by your post appears to be untrue.

Were you at the hearing where the deportation judgement was given? Or was it simply a written procudure (letter in the post)?

Were you present at the appeal?

I’d like to hear more of the exact format of the appeal. Any chance you could post a copy of the deportation order? (With personal details removed, of course)

An Update:

I was also told to go to the police station for them to stamp my passport, instead I just went to Bangkok and changed my working visa to a tourist visa. They had questions about this, so I just told them that I quit my job, but still wanted to time to travel Taiwan and tie-up loose ends. She joked about how much is there to see in Taiwan and was friendly and even gave me advice on what to write. They gave me a nonextendable-single entry-60day visa with a note saying that I was prohibited to work. The woman also told me it will be hard to get another tourist visa.

Before I left I talked to the to try and get my appeal started. I had one letter from the school I was working for legally, but needed another letter form the school I was doing a demo for. Today I was told to give all my paperwork to the Executive Yuan, which is located near the Main Train Station - across from the fire station.

  • Items included for all of you going through this:
  1. Copy of my new tourist visa
  2. Letters from both schools explaining my innocence
  3. Copy of my ARC (which should have been taken to the police station to be stamped, but wasn’t)
  4. Deportation notice

Now I am just waiting to see what happens with the appeal and not answering the phone or door just in case the police tell me I have to leave even with a new visa. I was also thinking I would try and change my tourist visa to a student visa–is this possible?

The police do say that I have to leave for five years and never work again in Taiwan, but the deportation just says you have to leave and not get a work visa. Anybody have more info on that?

From what I understand, yes, this is true.

It could be more that proper guanxi was utilized. The police that I’ve spoken to seem to be well aware that a lot of the big chain school teachers are illegal (e.g. ARC for one branch but frequently substituting at another branch).

I believe these schools are easy targets because many of these schools do not do a good job of ensuring compliance with the law. Reasons range from ignorance, administrative incompetence, and unethical behavior.

I am not sure yet of a rumor I had heard, but I’ve been led to believe that the current enforcement is done by a special FAP group. These police officers are thus more “professional” in carrying out their duties. You can consider the group like you’d have in the police: Organized Crime Unit, Narcotics Unit etc.

Makes a lot of sense to me…under the “old” rules. A couple of recent cases through my office contradicts this though. I think the possibilities are too great to know exactly what will happen which makes this all the more sensitive. I am not sure if the old rules are going to continue to work. One case involving a major and politically connected chain is resulting in the teacher being expelled from Taiwan. No amount of guanxi helped them in this case. They even brought in the local big firm lawyer. Begging and pleading totally ineffective.

What I fear is that schools are going to start turning on other schools. That’s going to be total chaos.

Some good ideas here.

All good questions. Need more information. I’ve PMed the poster about her experience. Hope to learn more.

You know paper-scissors-stone?

  1. The upheld appeal on Nov. 10th beats the deportation order I received on Nov. 2nd. (the upheld appeal isn’t formally finished yet, but a rough draft as of Friday night)

  2. The stamp in the passport beats the rough draft of the upheld appeal.

  3. The formal letter of the upheld appeal beats the stamp.

The formal letter(and the accompanying chops) haven’t been completed yet and it looks that it won’t be ready until after I leave. My boss’ lawyer suggested that I have 3 options:
-leave and come back under a spousal or tourist visa (so, I’d be working illegally again?)
-hide out from the police until the formal letter of the upheld appeal is completed( of course, I couldn’t stay at home, since they’d haul me to the airport), or
-return to Canada, get my passport from another country where I have dual citizenship, and come back. I’m not eager to do that since I’d be working illegally again, and have to get a student visa or something.

My boss knows a politician with the DPP who arranged the appeal this quickly, and was able to help ‘persuade’ the council to overthrow the decision.

It’s not about following the law, it’s about who you know. Now her ‘powerful’ friend will call her to tell her the next time there is a raid, so she can keep on making the same mistakes again, and again, and again…

I do agree that Taiwan is great and there are a lot of super people who are very friendly and helpful. It’s just this last experience I’ve had with the police makes me want to leave. I don’t even rule out coming back one day, but I’ve had enough of the legal/police system for now.

Well, I’ll say that the school has been trying to help us, but since they were not open from the beginning,( I had to wait 2 days and pester them to find out what was in the letter), I felt that I couldn’t trust them.

Did I mention that we got to the police station around 6PM on Friday night? So…we are kept waiting until 11PM, just like on TV where the cops want to wear you down, then they take our statements. That’s finished around 12:45AM, and they want us to sign it, and then we can leave.

EXCEPT IT’S ALL IN CHINESE!!! For all I know, it says that I like to eat dog poo! So I start to protest and say that I have to wait for my husband to come back so I can sign it…except that he’s already back at our house, trying to get any info that he can, and all he can find out is that people who sign it get deported. So a few phone calls and an hour later, the police are super-ticked (gee whiz officer! You mean you don’t like waiting for an hour? I don’t like waiting for SEVEN HOURS in this hole!), my boss is upset, and her husband is also mad at me.

Now, I am the kind of person that HATES it when people are mad at me, let alone 5 at the same time for the same reason! I was almost wishing that they would deport me, so I wouldn’t have that pressure on me anymore! The police were threatening to get me re-interrogated by the FAP, then put me on a plane. I was a mess at this point, plus my boss was asking, “Don’t you trust me? If you sign now, then the problem will just go away.” (etc, etc)

We were unable to get a lawyer at that time of night, surprise, surprise, so I had no legs to stand on, and no laws to quote. I would have had to wait till Monday morning to have representation.

The school has finally admitted that they were wrong with not following procedure. She has claimed ignorance, but now she knows better. I just don’t want to go back there after all of this.

When the letter came by registered mail, it revoked my ARC as soon as the security guard signed for it.

The lawyer that I consulted said that I had to follow what the letter said and leave. It would be a long and costly fight otherwise.

So, does that mean that technically, I have not been deported? That I was just asked to leave? I am interested in working in embassies in the future, but I’m sure that they will ask me that question.

The appeal was for her with the $150,000 fine (x3 teachers), as well as for us with the letter which had revoked the ARC’s and the 14 day time limit to leave. I was not there, but we had to sign a petition explaining the reasons why they should overturn their initial decision.

I was not there for the appeal process, nor did my boss call me to tell me the results. I had to go back to the school, and ask my supervisor to ask my boss what the heck was going on (more poor communication).

I suppose that again, it’s who you know around here. My boss was there and the judgement was given on the same day. I must stress that a lot of information I have been given has been, “My friend of the police says this…”, and “The boss is doing that…”, etc. The only official person that I have met with was the FAP, and it seems that they were doing everything in their power to manipulate everything and everyone.

If you are interested, I can e-mail you my boss’ telephone #, so you can contact her directly. I’m just fed up and don’t want to see or talk to her anymore. I don’t have a scanner, but am happy to give you a copy of the deportation order and appeal. I’ll meet you at the 7-11 at 7:11PM. :smiley:

After November 14th, I’ll be in Thailand for a few weeks. I’ll try to check this post if I can, but don’t be offended if I don’t answer right away.

Thanks!

Hey spunkymonkey you wrote this. Looks to me as if you were caught working without an ARC. It’s also illegal to do volunteer work too.

You say you were marking exam papers but then lie and say you were just visiting. So which is it? If you had an ARC for that school you would not be deported for working there nor would you need an appeals process imho. Just trying to clarify wether you had an ARC for the school at the time or not. It would seem that if you had one you would not be in your present pickle.

I know it’s hard for the new people here to understand the laws but it seems that many are learning the hard way. If you’re in a school without an ARC and you are doing any work then you can get deported.