Getting kicked out - HELP!

I am going through the same hassle right now and the system is really screwed up. I was doing a demo for a school that was getting busted for having a Day Care permit, but running like a cram school. I didn’t know this before the raid and assumed I would be getting a work permit if I got the job. Since demos are illegal, I was given 14 days to leave as well. They don’t believe the demo story and just feel you are teaching.

We have been calling everyone and I always get different answers as what is going to happen or what I should do. The police are saying I can’t come back to Taiwan for five years and never work here again. The FAP says just go to Hong Kong and back.

I am applying for an appeal also, but if I leave then there is no way of really knowing if I will be let back in to Taiwan. I can’t really afford to be flying home and back or pay for a visa that is not going to help me back. All my stuff is here, so if I am not let back in then I am really screwed. oI am preparing for the worst, so I had to sell my scooter and I will have to get somebody to rent my room. I will have to ship my things back home.

The whole thing is quite harsh for just doing a demo. Like I said the system is screwed; even if the appeal goes through I have already lost my job, lost money moving back home and shipping things, lost my apartment, no scooter, and a 20,000nt flight away…

Hello Spunky Monkey and Tou-fu ren.

What has been going on with you two? Please, please, PLEASE give us an update on your status.
A friend is currently at the beginning of the same process and it would be very helpful to know what has happened in your case.

Does anyone know if this thread has been moved somewhere else? It seems inconceivable to me that everyone has stopped discussing this!! Maybe some of it was lost when Forumosa moved?

If anyone has an update or any new information, it would be EXTREMELY helpful. I will also start posting details of my friends case, if anyone feels it would be helpful… It’s very similar to Spunkey and Toufu-ren’s.

I tried to prepare for the worse: I packed all my things and was planning to send them home, but just didn’t have the time. So I really did need to get back to tie up some loose ends.
I am in Bangkok now and I got my visa today. It is a limited one though. No extensions, single entry, and it has a note saying that working is prohibited. I fly into Taipei tomorrow, so I will see if I get any hassle. I am also hearing that the police will still ask you to leave even with the new visa. It looks like Spunkeymonkey got out of it because of his appeal and he doesn’t live in the city. I have an appeal, but I do live in the city.
I will update when I have more info.

Just a reminder to all who are reading this forum to get ready to move to Taiwan and teach.
A lot of schools here do not follow the law and will ask you to do illegal things. If you are caught, the school won’t help you and you will have to face the hassles on your own.

Learn the laws if you can and be careful.

Thanks so much for the update. I have a friend going through a similar situation right now and it is really helpful to hear about what other have gone through. I wish you the best of luck in your flight back from Thailand. Hopefully, we can find a way to make this work for you as well.

What is the distinction between you working in the city and Spunkey working outside of the city?? It seems you said that his appeal had been accepted!? How did this happen? Does anyone know Spunkey and have his email address? I need to know how to contact him. Please let us know if possible. Anything he has gone through could help to save my friend- literally.

Overall, this is really an issue which affects EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US. The fact is that 90% of foreigners work illegally in Taiwan. Any of us could be deported for any variety of reasons. If the government feels they need to crack down on illegal workers: fine. But, do so in the right way, not just randomly lashing out at any white face they see in the school. I love Taiwan and this is just wrong. This country can do better- and usually does.

A brief overview on what happened to my friend:
He is working entirely legally at a buxiban. He did a friend a favor and substituted a class a couple of months ago. The police came. They acted extremely friendly and simply asked him to sign a few documents in Chinese. They said everything would be ok. The police and owner of the school also asked him to please write a statement in English saying he was substituting classes. He, quite innocently, did as he was told.

Everyone said it was ok and nothing would happen. Two months later, he receives a letter saying he needs to leave the country in 14 days.
This entirely unacceptable and wrong on every level possible: morally, rationally and practically.

Anyway, if anyone has information on other who have gone through a similar situation, please let us know.

Thanks is advance.

The same thing happened to me on September 16th.

My school saw the police at the door and didn’t let them in until they hid 3 of us. They searched the classrooms, then talked to the supervisor. After about 15-20 minutes, she tells us to come out of hiding and go back to the classrooms. We ask if the police have left and she says “No.”

(this was when that little voice in my head said, “Don’t go out there!”)

I should listen to my little voice more often. So we go out, ‘observe’ the class for 4 minutes, and then we are told that the police want to talk to us.

The little voice pops up again, but silly me, I trust my supervisor! We chat it up with the police, then they say they want to check our ID’s at the police station. This was at 5:30PM on a Friday evening.

(fast forward)

It’s 1:30am and after interrogating us, making us wait, and feeding us supper(BK), we write up a statement with the police and are asked to sign the document in Chinese.

For all those people who said, “You shouldn’t have signed!”, I know that I shouldn’t have, but after 8 hours in there with pressure from your boss and the police saying that it’s okay, don’t worry, why don’t you trust us, and them threatening to re-interrogate me and/or deporting me that night, you’d crack too. They also said that at this point, the boss has to pay the fine and that’s it.

So I signed.

Fast forward to November 2nd, I get THE LETTER. We(the 3 of us) are working with the school to see if this can be reversed. I’m not overly optimistic, nor do I trust the school anymore(unless the decision goes our way :wink: )

I would recommend that you talk to everyone and anyone Taiwanese, because there is the chance that one of them will know “the right person”. We’ve gotten a lot of information this way that we never would have otherwise.

I am expected to leave the country by November 15th if the decision doesn’t go through, so I’m all packed up if the worst happens.

I’ve learned that:
-my boss didn’t pay the fine! I was told that it could have been a reason that we got the letters. She has no intention of paying.
-never leave your hiding spot or run like the wind!
-the police cannot keep you at the police station for more than 3 hours at the police station. Hold out till then and you are free to go; they cannot restrain you.
-some other stuff too, but I just woke up!

I’ll keep you posted, but I’m 99.999% sure that I won’t be here for Christmas… sigh

Hi, sorry to hear this news-but it is a good lesson for all of us to think through this situation beforehand. Hope everything goes well with you.

What other stuff did you learn?

So, if you work at a school illegally and they take you to the police station…You just wait 3 hours and its like nothing ever happened?

So you mean you were caught working without a visa. No appeal rights it seems.

And you have actually admitted working illegally… oops :blush:

Really, who told you that? Too bad when you try to walk out and they cuff you to the rail on the wall. :help: :help:

I hope you all get visa’s to come back and visit. :smiley: :smiley: Just get your work pemit before stepping up the the plate. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Maybe it’s best if you don’t post on this topic as you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

I do have an appeal right as my appeal is being processed now

Another update!

I got back in to the country with out any problems on a student visa. However a few days after I arrived an administrator from the Ximending FAP called me up and said that I would have to leave within 10 days. I argued for a long time but she was insistent

Eventually I got my girlfriend to call the administrator. First she tried to get my girlfriend to change my address form Taipei county to Taipei city so that I would have to go to that FAP rather than the Banqiao one. And then she said that my appeal had failed, it hadn’t, she was just lying.

My girlfriend threatened to get a lawyer involved and then she started backpedaling. Instead of 10 days she said I could have 3 months for the appeal to run its course.

I’m not really sure what the Ximending FAP were playing at as it seems very strange that they were so determined to kick me out and then suddenly give me 3 months to stay.

Apparently they get bonuses for the number of foreigners they deport so perhaps she was just trying it on. I very much doubt it was an act of kindness!!

Anyway the student visa I got was non-extendable so I’ve had to go to the ministry of foreign affairs to request an extendable visa. I find out on Monday what they say and let everyone know

Hope all your visa problems get sorted

it would be nice to know why they are so gung-ho on you signing the paper. is it more that they don’t have a leg to stand on otherwise, which would suggest that it could be in your interest to tough it out and not sign, or merely that from their viewpoint it will simplify the following legal proceedings, where it most likely wouldn’t make a difference. i would tend to suspect the latter.

Thanks very much for the update Spunkey.
A lot of people are going through the same thing right now, but you are further along in the process, so it’s really helpful to hear how things turn out for you.

What makes you think they get bonuses for deportations? Was that a joke, or did someone actually say something along those lines?

Do you have any feeling at this point as to how your appeal will go? Everything I am hearing is not encouraging.

Keep us updated!!

This seems to be the root of a lot of problems, the fact that the right hand of the government doesn’t seem to know what the left hand is doing.

How silly that one office can give you a visa and another try to take it away from you!

I doubt this. Surely if it were true then a whole lot more foreigners would be getting deported as there are clearly lots of cases where a deportation could be justified but is not instituted. I have heard a lot of good things about the FAP in Taipei and my personal experiences certainly back this up.

If it was all about quotas and bonuses as you suggest and she was out for the money then I doubt that she would have backed down so readily!

Thanks for the update though. First hand experiences are really very valuable.

Well, don’t trust the police…but we all know that, right? :fume:

The police officer assigned to the case decided to call me to make sure that I was on my way out…apparently he couldn’t reach either one of my co-workers.

Anyway, I was informed (by a friend of a friend of the police) that I must give them my passport and ticket. Since my boss had no intention of paying the fine, they could stop me at the border, and detain me until it was paid. Since I had no intention to pay my boss’ fine, I co-operated and now there is a stamp on my passport saying that I have to leave on Monday.

It gets better…

On Thursday, my boss gets the appeal done. The one that usually takes 2-3 months took her 1 week. She’s been getting a lot of guanxi from somewhere…I don’t know. They actually overturned the decision and we can stay!!!

Now comes the best part…

I still have to leave because I have a stupid stamp in my passport!!!

Go figure that I’m the only foreigner that could stay after a raid and deportation order and blew it.

Now my boss says that I should just leave and come back in under a spousal visa. We can sort it out when I get back. I would put in a rant about my boss, but I think that my whole posting would get deleted!!!

I’m fed up over the last 2 weeks and I’m going home. It feels like I’ve gone through 7 years of puberty(the angst and ups-and-downs) since I received that letter. I don’t regret coming here at all, and this will make for a good story one day…but today is not the day!

Thanks for listening!

Well, think on the American TV shows…they can only keep you for a certain amount of time in jail without charging you. Then they have to let you go. So, after 3 hours, if they haven’t done anything, then you are entitled to walk out.

I’d still recommend having a lawyer to back you up, as I’m sure that the police would deny it and say you had to stay.

No joking about the cuffs on the metal bar!!! I saw 2 bars there with the handcuffs just dangling there, waiting for my wrist…

OH!!! THE HORRORS!!!

The police get 1 point for feeding us Burger King for dinner.
The police get -5938 points for keeping us waiting so long…and another -250 points for carting in (and drinking!) Taiwan beer. I didn’t see them drinking, but you know they weren’t using it for decoration!

Thanks for the update Canadian.

It’s great news that the appeal was upheld!!
Do you know what approach your boss took to the appeal?
If you could find out what she did, it would be very helpful to those people who are just beginning this process. Thanks!

You shouldn’t leave if you had planned on staying here. It’s a shame that this happened to you, but Taiwan is a great place and there is nothing wrong with us fighting to change a few things. There are plenty of things which go on in our country that we don’t like either.

Why then do the police bother turning up at schools at all? Surely if they are accountable to no-one, they can pick names off the computer at random.

This is what I suspect. I suspect that there is a burden of proof on the police and that there are rights for the prisoner which the police are desperate to keep hidden. I say “prisoner”, but it appears people are never actually arrested. I mean if I was a cop I’d rather someone signed a confession than have to gather evidence and push paper across desks.

It is likely that part of the motivation behind the police raids is to enforce the law on immigration as it is written. Is is very likely that much of the effort is directed towards improving the image of area politicians and preventing scandal. Parents don’t like finding out such and such a school was unlicensed after, say, a kid has an accident at the school, or some other such thing likely to lose the area Politico the election. Thus, raids must be conducted against a school likely to yield up to police teachers who are working illegally.

They don’t raid the big chain schools with such regularity, as great effort is expended to make sure the teachers are legit, and they tend to have their papers in order. Raids conducted against smaller schools, or schools inexperienced in hiring foreigners, schools with weaker guanxi, or clearly unlicensed schools are more likely to yield illegal teachers.

Raiding schools is effective for several reasons. It results in the foreigner getting screwed, and a fine for the school. The fine for the school can be dealt with in whatever fashion is agreed between the police and the school. The foreigner can be disposed of without too much worry, as no-one important will go out of their way to help, nor be angered if the person is deported (except perhaps some short-term frustration on the part of some parents: “Grrr. Why was my kid’s teacher illegal?” Rare.). In any case, the law is being seen to be enforced, and very few politicians get criticised for that. Raids may also have the effect of increasing compliance with the law (more taxes) or alternatively, bigger hong baos to the local cops and fire dept, although I see no evidence of that.

The upshot, is that no-one particularly likes raids and deportations. They come in waves (the first I remember being in September 1992 when the FAP finally worked out the Employment Services Act 1989) depending on bonuses, and political campaigns. The mayorships of Taipei City and Taipei County are up for grabs at the moment. Immigration enforcement is a huge issue in Taipei County, and nationally. The teaching of English, and the whole concept of foreign languages and what the fuck language should we speak in Taiwan anyway, is a huge political hot potato.

The point for the teacher is to remember you are just a pawn in all of this. You need to be quick to assess whether you can make yourself a big enough pain in the arse for the fuzz to drop this. Quoting the law is one way. I have quoted the law to various senior members of government over immigration issues and for every law I quote, they produce an internal guidance instruction that contradicts it. On the other hand, I have found using guanxi (including with other foreigners) can result in having things turn out the way I wanted despite a seemingly hopeless legal situation.

Will the school go to bat for you? If they have made a mistake, rather than, say, putting you through another school for tax or work permit headcount reasons, they have a good argument to make along the lines of “Oh so many regulations, look we have our certificate from the fire department, and local police, and our business licence, we pay tax, we are so sorry, the work permit rules are so complicated, we tried…” I have seen this argument work three times at two different large national chains in cases of foreign teachers with erroneous ARCs. Each time the key was the otherwise flawless legality of the school, and the meticulous (but erroneous) application for the work permit, as well as the correct and timely payment of business taxes, and the personal icome tax registration of the teacher. In a case where the school will get into a long discussion with the FAP and you believe they are trying to help you, all hop is not lost. I would advise not talking to the FAP without someone from the shool with you in a case like that. If the school plays its cards right, the FAP will move on to the next target school on their list. Perhaps they have nothing more on the school than some agent of a rival school made a suggestion that there were illegal workers at the school and they have nothing on any one teacher in particular. Could turn out that your school’s guanxi are better than the complaining school’s.

If the school seems happy to pay the NT$150k or whatever it is nowadays, and cut you loose, then you are of course on your own. As has been advised before, the best route is to sign nothing, and certainly don’t give up your passport. If that’s all you’ve got, (no ARC) then you really are screwed and I don’t know what you could say other than I wasn’t teaching, but I don’t feel comfortable advising on how to hoodwink the police. If you really were just there for an interview, say, then all you can do is tell the truth. I would imagine there is no provision for interviews being acceptable due to the difficulty of proof, but written records of appointments may help. If you have an ARC but there is a problem with it, then the only possible argument is that you have done everything you could to try and be legal. You have to pose the question how you are supposed to verify and compare documents written in a language you don’t understand, and isn’t it the school’s responsibility to make sure your documentation is correct? This is one reason I dislike schools which charge the applicants visa processing fees because that could be used as an argument to distance the school from its responsibility to properly process the application. It would be a weak argument, but when it looks like you are going down for teaching illegally you are in the realm of weak arguments.

Remember also that even if the FAP want to do you, the sanctions can vary depending on their mood and the phases of the moon. Try and simply get your ARC cancelled. You are supposed to leave within 14 days, but the FAP might want you to leave right away. On a technical note, very few people actually get deported, as such. Deportation involves being taken to the airport by the police in a police car, and escorted onto the plane where your passport is returned to you. In the few cases I know of (all involving non-English-teachers) the prisoners were locked up in a detention centre first and the employer was made to pay the air fare to the country of nationality. That is actual deportation (chu zhu chu jing). So negotiate and say nothing. I am not sure how much use getting a lawyer is unless you can find one that actually deals with administrative measures on a daily basis.

The Appeal: Should we assume that that was an appeal against the action taken against her, or did it include an appeal on your behalf in respect of the measures taken (or to be taken) against you? I know the ramifications of the appeal would affect you, but were you an actual party to the appeal? I ask because I have been repeatedly told there is no immigration appeals process in Taiwan (and indeed no initial judicial hearing which could give rise to an appeal) which by your post appears to be untrue.

Were you at the hearing where the deportation judgement was given? Or was it simply a written procudure (letter in the post)?

Were you present at the appeal?

I’d like to hear more of the exact format of the appeal. Any chance you could post a copy of the deportation order? (With personal details removed, of course)