Give Lian and Song some credit

The recent visits by Lian and Song have got me thinking about their perspectives. This will be a bit long-winded, so bear with me.

T.I.ers like to attack Lian and Song with personal insults just because of their opposing political positions, even going so far as to bring in Song’s mother, and Lian’s wife, etc. This is consistent with the street-fighting style that T.I.ers have adopted in the years before gaining political power and the uncouth, lowbrow tactics they use to garner support from uneducated southern peasants. Agitation is the method of choice and the mouth is the weapon of choice for T.I.ers.

This is all fine and well for internal consumption, but problem arises whenever T.I.ers, now in power, take such choice methods to the international scene. The problem is, they can’t actually defend their ideology by themselves. They need help from the US, from Japan, or from whomever else willing, but act as if those helpers are at their command and disposal.

Some people are shocked to see this mentality. T.I.ers themselves see it as a sign of “the brave Taiwanese that can’t be scared.” They often say things like they want T.I. now come the end of the world, whatever the consequences, whatever the costs. In fact, they don’t really consider the costs very much, a habit which has been brought into the current administration’s pro-T.I. propaganda. They don’t truly know it. This is also where Lian and Song come in.

Both men, while in mainland China, have mentioned their childhood experiences of large-scale destruction, deaths, and flight associated with years of war and turmoil. It is evident that these weigh heavily on their outlook and shape the values of at least part of the pan-Blue constituency. War often has a sobering effect on those who have experienced it, especially the ultimate pointlessness of it, a poignant point which I am sure Lian realized when the KMT chairman shook the hands of his CCP counterpart.

Those in power now and the T.I.ers never did experience war. Some of them experienced injustice during 228, but not the wholesale destruction that was the Chinese Civil War. They simply do not know it. Lian and Song and the mainlander families, whom T.I.ers make the butt of all kowtow jokes, in fact have the most credentials to speak about the potential costs of T.I. Fortunately, most Taiwanese agree with the pan-Blues on the issue of costs of carrying out T.I. and therefore reject it in favor of maintaining status quo. If Chen Shui Bian and T.I.ers believe in a civil society, they should shut up and respectfully listen, too.

Thank you Zeugumite. Goodness gracious, I never thought of it that way before. Pan Green are lowbrow hicks while pan blue really know the score. Erudite. Incisive. You really have taken this tired old bashing back and forth into a whole new area of measured response and expert analysis. :notworthy:
Exactly what was Lien’s part in the civil war, by the way? He returned to Taiwan in what? 1946? I’m pretty sure the silver spoon didn’t have to come out of his spoiled bratty mouth even once.

The only credit I feel inclined to give them is that shame evidently is not a factor for either of them.

Kudos for shamelessness.

[quote=“rooftop”]
Kudos for shamelessness.[/quote]Not to mention the uncanny ability to avoid imprisonment…

…and become very, very rich … and exempt their sons from military service…

I love their homes in Shanghai. They’re big and pretty.

Zeugmite, we didn’t use any personal insults, much the way you do when you lose an argument.

[quote=“zeugmite”]
T.I.ers like to attack Lian and Song with personal insults just because of their opposing political positions[/quote]

pot…kettle…??? :laughing:

[quote=“butcher boy”][quote=“zeugmite”]
T.I.ers like to attack Lian and Song with personal insults just because of their opposing political positions[/quote]

pot…kettle…??? :laughing:[/quote]

Pointing out that DPP tries to get support from those southern peasants who are uneducated is not a personal insult. Get with the program.

Lian and Song have experienced the result of years of war, especially that fought between Chinese in their childhood. They have a credible perspective when they say war that would come with going down the T.I. path should be avoided. T.I.ers and laowais absolutely do not have that perspective. If you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge some basic facts like this, then you are full of it.

I don’t believe that’s a good basis for giving in though. I mean, even if I served in a war, I would still fight for something I believed in. Apparently they don’t believe in Taiwan independence.

I know a few Vietnam War vets that tried to re-enlist after 9/11.

Don’t get me wrong though…I can perftectly understand not wanting to cause/see such desolation again, but IMHO, it’s a poor reason for surrendering w/o a fight.

Have you guys ever thought about this? Perhaps they see re-unification as inevitable, and they’re only trying to insure that they won’t be imprisoned upon re-subjection of Taiwan…trying to maintain their own status quo, if you will.

Don’t flame me, lol, I don’t live in Taiwan right now, so I don’t know the politics very well.

Credit as good Quislings - that’s the credit I give them. :fume:

I didn’t say surrender. I just say they have a perspective that is too easily dismissed. And that, in comparison, T.I. leaders have shown themselves to be rather gung ho out of ignorance.

Fact is, Lian and Song advocate no such thing as surrender, either. Of course, T.I.ers shamelessly paste the “surrender” label onto anyone who disagrees with T.I. (as in declare independence), but that’s a different story.

Sums up Taiwanese politics nicely I think. One side is gung ho and ignorant, the other side is megalomaniacal and ignorant.

[quote=“zeugmite”]Pointing out that DPP tries to get support from those southern peasants who are uneducated is not a personal insult. Get with the program.

Lian and Song have experienced the result of years of war, especially that fought between Chinese in their childhood. They have a credible perspective when they say war that would come with going down the T.I. path should be avoided. T.I.ers and laowais absolutely do not have that perspective. If you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge some basic facts like this, then you are full of it.[/quote]

“Southern peasants who are uneducated”?

I’ll give Lien and Soong some credit: they never talked about southerners with such contemptuous language

[quote=“zhujianlun”]
“Southern peasants who are uneducated”?

I’ll give Lien and Soong some credit: they never talked about southerners with such contemptuous language

Non sequitur? Funny you call him up for that, 'cause you’re using the same thing. Let’s break this down:

There are lots of uneducated people in the south of Taiwan.
The DPP targets the south of Taiwan.

These are the two points you make. Now where, exactly, do you get that the DPP specifically targets the uneducated ones? Hmmm? They target the south, educated and uneducated alike. Yes, statistically that means their target audience contains more uneducated people than the north would, but it does not logically follow that they specifically target the uneducated sector. Next.

[quote=“Tetsuo”]
The DPP targets the south of Taiwan.[/quote]Have you noticed though, that since the LY elections ‘the south of Taiwan’ in the eyes of the blue has shifted from meaning anywhere south of Taichung to (now) everything south of Miaoli? Is the green spreading, or is the blue ideal of ethnic/ideological purity becoming more narrow?

zeugmite wrote

This is an incorrect interpretation of voting patterns in Taiwan. Voting patterns in Taiwan have been well studied and are very well understood. Very, very little evidence suggests that social class has anything to do with which party Taiwanese vote for. Residents of the southern part of Taiwan generally vote for the DPP because it presents itself as the party of ethnic Taiwanese and this is the region with the strongest ethnic Taiwanese identity.

I recommend that you have a look at Shelly Rigger’s book Politics in Taiwan: Voting for Democracy, which is universally accepted as the best discussion of this topic.

Another important point is that the DPP gets more votes in absolute numbers in the north than it does in the south. And the KMT gets significant numbers of votes in the south. So simplistically dividing Taiwan into a ‘green’ south and a ‘blue’ north is quite misleading.

[quote=“zeugmite”]
Lian and Song have experienced the result of years of war, especially that fought between Chinese in their childhood. [/quote]

There were many well meaning people in Europe in the 20s and 30s who, because of their horrific experiences in WW1 decided to negotiate and try to please the local bully. They came to be known as appeasers, Europe came to be virtually destroyed and millions of lives were violently snuffed out.

[quote=“butcher boy”][quote=“zeugmite”]
Lian and Song have experienced the result of years of war, especially that fought between Chinese in their childhood. [/quote]

There were many well meaning people in Europe in the 20s and 30s who, because of their horrific experiences in WW1 decided to negotiate and try to please the local bully. They came to be known as appeasers, Europe came to be virtually destroyed and millions of lives were violently snuffed
out.[/quote]

Well, with such a short term memory, its not surprising when history gets repeated. Again. and Again…