I don’t understand the people who say that Lien Chan or James Soong are going to “sell out” Taiwan? Like the pro-Green supporters and the Taiwan governing authorities have said, they don’t represent the government, they can’t cut any deals with Beijing, they can’t hand over the keys of the presidential office to Hu Jintao, and they can’t order the ROC military to suddenly put down their weapons. All they’re doing is talking. Talking, whoever is doing it, is a helluva lot better than fighting, and it’s always possible that it could pave the way for more talks in the future. I think the TI supporters just don’t like the fact that it’s Lien Chan and James Soong (neither do I, I’d rather it be someone like Ma Ying-jeou). But whether some people like it or not, it’s happening, and people just need to wait and see what happens.
…Yes, the violence was troubling, but what the hell did you expect was going to happen?
…[/quote]
The violence was, is, troubling, and will be so again when he returns a week later. What did I expect was going to happen at the airport?
I expected signs, chants, banners, a crowd yelling slogans. Not this ugly riot of hooligans. And now I expect it will happen again next week, and when Soong goes, too.
Lien Chan did not piss in his pants. He didn’t even see the riots. He was on the plane and when the plane landed in Nanking later in the day, he was the man of the hour. Just like Kerry and McCain, Lien Chan might actually build a bridge for future peace and constructive talks, that Chen Shui Bian can later follow up on as El Presidente.
Stranger things have happened. The New Year flights were made possible due to the advance work of the KMT, and now this trip – and Soong’s trip in 10 days – might lay the groundwork for peace and talks.
Like Buddha said, talking is better than fighting. The riots at CKS make Taiwan look like a Banana Republic. This island is looking more and more like a kindergarten of fools.
Poagao, I don’t remember you saying very much along these lines when the KMT/PFP people went ballistic after losing a fair election and trying to storm the Presidential Office and that court building in Kaohsiung. Nor do I recall you saying anything about how the government bent over backwards to neutralize the issue by using a softly-softly approach to the protests. Nor do I recall you mentioning the DPP warning its members not to respond to provocation by blue-camp protesters, on pain of removal from the party. So excuse me if I find your conception of “hooligans” highly selective in the context of political protests in this country.
I do think the police were inept and that there were extreme elements in the crowd. The protesters and the media should never have been allowed inside the terminal, and should never have been allowed that close to one another. When passions run this high there is bound to be a bit of blood spilled when police don’t do their job properly. Taiwan is no exception.
Good gracious, you aren’t seriously telling me Lien Chan can be likened to Jesse Jackson in this scenario? As for Carter, he was and is an ex-president looking for something useful to do, not the leader of an opposition refusing to acknowledge the president of the day and willing to negotiate with a hostile power against the wishes of the government and a huge chunk of the population. I mean, isn’t this blindingly obvious? How can you be so blase about this? Lien may not start a war, but are you seriously telling me that his interests coincide with the maintenance of Taiwan’s democracy? I’d like to see that argument.
Your contempt for Taiwan as a whole is duly noted, Cola.
On this point I think you are on very shaky ground. Lien is perfectly able to cut a deal
Well, the “scuffle” at CKS airport made it onto CNN this morning. I’m sure the US is watching all of this very, very closely.
zhujianlun, brilliant! :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Forgoeing the numerous problems comparing U.S. policy in Iraq to U.S. policy on China, I will point at the obvious. Saddam didn’t have “WMD” as the popular acronym these days stand. China not only has stockpiles of biological and chemical agents, but also a significant nuclear stockpile with the capability to deliver them via ICBM to the United States. This is the biggest dilemma in the Taiwan strait, the risk and consequences of miscalculation. China may underestimate the United State’s willingness to intervene in military circumstances. The United States on the other hand may also underestimate just how far China is willing to go in resolving the Taiwan issue.
[quote=“zhujianlun”]Poagao, I don’t remember you saying very much along these lines when the KMT/PFP people went ballistic after losing a fair election and trying to storm the Presidential Office and that court building in Kaohsiung. Nor do I recall you saying anything about how the government bent over backwards to neutralize the issue by using a softly-softly approach to the protests. Nor do I recall you mentioning the DPP warning its members not to respond to provocation by blue-camp protesters, on pain of removal from the party. So excuse me if I find your conception of “hooligans” highly selective in the context of political protests in this country.
Good gracious, you aren’t seriously telling me Lien Chan can be likened to Jesse Jackson in this scenario? As for Carter, he was and is an ex-president looking for something useful to do, not the leader of an opposition refusing to acknowledge the president of the day and willing to negotiate with a hostile power against the wishes of the government and a huge chunk of the population. I mean, isn’t this blindingly obvious? How can you be so blase about this? Lien may not start a war, but are you seriously telling me that his interests coincide with the maintenance of Taiwan’s democracy? I’d like to see that argument.[/quote]
I’m sorry; I wasn’t aware that I had to comment on every item in Taiwan’s history to be able to comment on this one. For the record, I do think the 3-19 protests were unsightly and embarrassing in the international spotlight. We really don’t need more of the same.
As far what Lien plans to do or is able to do, pretty much all of your accusations, as well as your assessment of what portion of the population is extremely opposed to his trip (there was an article in the paper on a poll by Taiwan Think Tank showing a slim majority condone the trip, yesterday), as all your own assumptions. Most people, including the US, do not share your assumptions (I know, they’re “blindingly obvious” to you). I’m not saying whether or not Lien “should” be compared to Jackson, Carter, etc., but that he probably will be, as an ex-vice president “looking for something useful to do.” If the government banned Lien and Soong from travelling to the mainland and refused to negotiate with China at all, we’d come out looking a lot more like China than we should.
On this point I think you are on very shaky ground. Lien is perfectly able to cut a deal
easy easy now…
No need to talk about China throwing 1-2 nuclear warheads on LA and the end of the Chinese civilization being the result of this.
Back on topic:
OK, now where lian Zhan is gone, is there any way of refusing him re-entry? Any way of letting that slime ball rot in China to the end of his natural life, or when his masters think he has outlived his usefulness?
I don’t see very much good coming out of this, basically because of history. No, I am not talking about Chinese history, I am talking about the way, communist parties have used “united front” strategies to subvert and take over their opponents.
East Germany, Czech republic, the communist parties started to work with the "softer’ of their opponents, IE the social democrats, slowly infiltrated them, took them over, and then used them to basically take over the country in question.
China is trying the same approach here, and so far the KMT are big enough fools to let themselves be used.
Perhaps, but both Kerry and LC are electoral losers. The major difference is that Kerry had the magnanimity to admit defeat and unlike LC he probably cares about the place he lives in.
The only similarity between Kerry and Lien Chan are that they were both anti-war and dissidents to the executive office position on foreign policy. Kerry was anti-Vietnam and Lien Chan is anti-Taidu.
Being anti-Taidu doesn’t mean one doesn’t care for Taiwan.
CSB even did a 180 on Lien Chan trip over the phone. LTH has condemned CSB as an enemy collaborator.
At least you admit China is a foreign country. This is more than I can say for LC. BTW, LC isnt anti-war hes pro-unification. Actually, Kerry didn`t run on an anti-war platform either.
I don`t blame anybody for not trusting LC, but you can thank the USA for CSB now supporting the meeting.
This is classic “straw man” stuff, Poagao. The law allows Lien and Soong to go to China because they do not fall into the categories of people prevented from doing so. The government did not ban them, even when it was opposed to the trips. So why the “If”?
And the government has not negotiated with China because of the conditions Beijing has attached to any talks. It is important that Taiwan play its hand and stick to its message if it is going to protect itself.
So enough of this curious “looking like” theme that has emerged in this thread. Again, why the obsession with what other people think at the expense of what Taiwanese themselves think? If these ghostly observers from overseas actually knew what goes on here then they would know it is damn obvious that Taiwan is not China. It is insulting and preposterous for anyone to infer otherwise. Anyone who confuses the two is so poorly informed or riddled with ideology that he/she can be dismissed out of hand. That’s it. So have some courage and place some trust in international observers. If they have half a brain they will look at any tension here and see it as a product of a long-standing political conflict rather than deduce that Taiwanese are a species of sub-humans.
And all of this comes back to the theme of this thread. It’s not about “travel bans” or about “refusing to negotiate.” It’s about Lien’s contempt for the head of state and his petulance in displaying it
Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. I mistakenly assumed that you thought some kind of action should have been taken to prevent Lien and Soong from making their trips. My mistake.
As for the responsibility you ascribe to me to personally correct Taiwan’s image problem via more “fair and balanced” posts on Forumosa.com: WTF? Honestly. I consider myself pro-Taiwan, mostly out of self interest I admit, but I doubt my posting history is exactly going to change the course of real history.
[quote]And all of this comes back to the theme of this thread. It’s not about “travel bans” or about “refusing to negotiate.” It’s about Lien’s contempt for the head of state and his petulance in displaying it
[quote=“zhujianlun”]So have some courage and place some trust in international observers. If they have half a brain they will look at any tension here and see it as a product of a long-standing political conflict rather than deduce that Taiwanese are a species of sub-humans.[/quote]When French protesters riot and blockade the Channel ports, no-one accuses them of being sub-human riff-raff, do they? No, we call it a healthy democracy where the citizens can express their discontent with public policy.
Not only was the idiotic visit the Prez/phone contact before he left eposide a joke, but his lame-ass response to the question of if he will contact the Prez on his return again showed his true, selfish character. (Er, I don
[quote]lame-ass response to the question of if he will contact the Prez on his return again showed his true, selfish character. (Er, I don
Oh dear.
Say, ac, couldn’t you have at least waited a few more weeks before giving the game away?