Hamas has ended the truce with Israel

[bigduke6]

[quote=“bigduke6”]At the end of the day I fully support a 2 state solution. However, there are certain facts that need to be cleared up first.

1-How do you negotiate with a group such as hamas, when they do not recognize your right to exist. We all know hamas does not recognize Israel. Who do they then negotiate with? The Easter bunny. By negotiating with Israel they are then by definition recognizing and legitimizing Israel. This is against their charter. So the first step to any negotiation is that hamas change their charter and recognize Israel. This is pure logic.[/quote]

Party charter details are not as important as the need to negotiate. Charters can be changed after negotiations or after agreements are reached.

This is where you or dead wrong. Try telling thatb to the Ayatohllas in Tehran. This is what it boils down to. The charter is the reason negotiations cannot occur. How can you expect the negotiations when one party does not recognize the others existence? Explain this. Also please explain how the backers in Tehran will allow this? You really need to look at the big picture and take the blinkers off.

2-A unified Palestinian gov is needed before any negotiations can take place. This is also a simple fact. Israel cannot negotiate separate deals with hamas and fatah. Impossible. Hamas and Fatah probably hate each other more than they hate Israel.

They recently reached an agreement on forming an interim govt.

Yes, but lets see if and for how long it will function. A few years at least before it will be seen as legitimate. In the interim it has to keep the peace.

3-Winning hearts and minds. My god. If only life was so easy. This type of comment states that you do not have enough knowledge of the situation to comment. I am sure the USA tried this in Vietnam. Look how well it worked. You have people that have been indoctrinated since birth to hate both Israelis and Jews. They are also willing to blow themselves up along with innocent civilians for this belief of hate. While I fully agree that there are extremists on both sides and some Israeli civillians have killed Palestinian civilians (these Israelis should be punished to the full extent off the law), I don’t remember the last Israeli suicide bomber.

No one said it would be easy. And equally, it won’t come from military solutions as the US found out in Vietnam. You may not remember the last Israeli suicide bomber but does anyone else remember the last time Palestinian Apache helicopters launched missiles into civilian populations? Different tools maybe but the end result is the same. [/quote]

Aha! Hiding in civilian populations and using human shields. A favorite hamas tactic. Please denounce.

4-Land for peace does not work. Ask Neville Chambelain about that. Six million Jews as well as millions of Gypsies, gays, commies etc died as a result of that deal. Somehow I do not think the Israelis will make the same mistake. Appeasement does not work, despite what the liberal left might think.

Strawman.

Elaborate please.

5-Peace for peace is the step that is required. Once this occurs they can talk states.

Sure, but it works both ways. Building new settlements (or not removing old ones) is also a threat to peace. Peace must work for both sides not just Israel.

Peace for peace requires no pre conditions. We stop fighting and then we can talk about states. Simple.

6-Jerusalem is not a negotiable issue. It is the capital of Israel, and has been so since 1000BC. It only became important to Islam around 600AD.

Personally I think it should be placed under UN or some other international body for administration until such time as both parties can agree to allow the other equal rights over it. It’s been under Islamic control for most of the last millenia so the Palestinians have just as much a right to it as Israel.

The UN?? You must be kidding? Were they not in the the Sinai? Egypt expelled them in 67 and they had to leave, occupied their positions and then massed over 100 000 troops for invasion. This lead directly to the 6 Day War. The UN today is a lot weaker than it was then. UN hahaha.
Regarding Jerusalem, you logic is that if I come to your house, throw you out, I then have the right to the upstairs bedroom?
The muslim presence was through rape, pillage and plunder.

7-The requirment that the 4.7 million Palestinian refugees must be returned to Israel. What about the 900,000 Jewish refugees who fled anti-Semitic violence in the Arab world. Did they receive any type of compensation? Where they repatriated? They were absorbed by Israel with no objection by the gov’s of the Arab countries where these Jews originated. This set the precedent where the country which accepts the refugees assimilates them. Cannot have your cake and eat it I am afraid.

If they wish to return to their homeland, then they should be allowed to. Like it or not, this is an issue that will have to be solved and outright denial of their desire is not the answer. There are just as many situations internationally where the precedent is that refugees only stay as long as necessary and steps are taken to return them. Assimilation is not precedent.

Well dont expect the Iranian, Iraqi, Yemeni, Algerian etc etc govs to make a plea for their Jews to return or compensate them. They never will so that argument is put to bed.

8-Who in their right mind would voluntarily let a population that is essentially against your existence into their country?

Then give them a reason to not be against you.

Like what?

9-Security. Assume there is a Palestinian state tomorrow. What will happen when the rockets fall on Israel from that state? Any suggestions? It will happen. Please, please don’t tell me the UN.

If negotiations have been carried out correctly and enough time and aid is permitted to allow a functioning Palestinian state to flourish, it’s unlikely to be a problem. But it will take time - over half a century of abuses won’t be overturned easily or quickly.

And in the interim Israel accepts suicide bombings, mortars, rockets etc etc indefinitely? Remember the Jews have had centuries of abuses and have learnt the hard way the need for strength.

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Looks like as good a time as any to add this bit. Hell, its became a cottage industry in some tail-chasing groups…

The Anti-Israel Distortions Industry

Just one of many examples showing the media/“academic” bias against the state of Israel.[/quote]

Excellent post. It is mystifying how people can continue to bash Israel by repeating half-truths and claim that they are being even handed.

I have lived in the region for 15 years, and will be going back again in a couple months. I have seen the situation myself.

Has everyone gone insane?

[cfimages]

bigduke6 - you are placing ALL the blame on the Palestinians and none on the Israeli leaders. Nothing is ever black and white like that. We’ve seen how the hardline works - it doesn’t. From either side. If you keep going with this “need for strength” approach the only thing that will happen will be that this same debate will be taking place in 50 years because nothing will have changed.

@Albert Einstein

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

The leaders on both sides have failed their people who desire peace, and failed the world.

[bigduke6]

[quote=“cfimages”]bigduke6 - you are placing ALL the blame on the Palestinians and none on the Israeli leaders. Nothing is ever black and white like that. We’ve seen how the hardline works - it doesn’t. From either side. If you keep going with this “need for strength” approach the only thing that will happen will be that this same debate will be taking place in 50 years because nothing will have changed.

[quote=“Albert Einstein”}Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.[/quote]

The leaders on both sides have failed their people who desire peace, and failed the world.[/quote]

I agree there must be a 2 state solution, and further agree that leaders are part of the problem. For the most part you are blaming the Israelis.

However my main point is simple, you cannot negotiate with someone who does not accept or recognize your existence. It is actually as simple as that.

Once hamas do this the ball will be in the Israeli court and they will have to respond.

Until then it is nothing Israel really needs to do. how can you do anything if you don’t exist.

Hamas and the rest need to pull away from Irans influence otherwise it will never happen. Iran’s constitution basically calls for Israels destruction, and they are trying to achieve this by proxy.

[TainanCowboy]

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]Looks like as good a time as any to add this bit. Hell, its became a cottage industry in some tail-chasing groups…

The Anti-Israel Distortions Industry
Just one of many examples showing the media/“academic” bias against the state of Israel.[/quote]
Excellent post. It is mystifying how people can continue to bash Israel by repeating half-truths and claim that they are being even handed.
I have lived in the region for 15 years, and will be going back again in a couple months. I have seen the situation myself.
Has everyone gone insane?[/quote]GTBK -
Insanity?..I would characterize it as “selective omission” promoting a political agenda.

I do know that this piece recently went out over major wire services and was almost universally not picked-up.

[quote]As Jews In Israel Are Murdered, As In Nazi Era, Media Turns Blind Eye To Terrorism
By Joel Leyden, Israel News Agency

Jerusalem, Israel — August 21, 2011 … Not since the Nazi era of the late 1930’s and early 1940’s, has the world media turned a blind eye to Jews being murdered. After a bloody series of well coordinated, barbaric terror attacks near Eilat, Israel by Islamic extremists which claimed the lives of 8 Israelis, the world media was mostly silent. Not a word could be found on the front page of USAToday.

Many other newspapers and Internet news sites had the story buried on page 5, 6 or 12. One must credit a few papers for calling the terrorists - terrorists, rather than militants or gunmen, as terrorists are responsible for shooting down civilians.

The New York Times carried a highly distorted fact claiming that Israel “ignited” the violence by responding to a Palestinian terror attack!

As for Reuters and AP - they did their job. They got the news out. But the Western media simply chose to ignore it. …(excerpt)[/quote]

Yes, the title is a tad harsh and other media is named by name; but editors change and edit article titles and content everyday. Still, the basic tenor of the piece just doesn’t fit the PC mold that todays media sells.

[cfimages]

[quote=“bigduke6”]

For the most part you are blaming the Israelis.[/quote]

You must have missed all my posts mentioning both sides.

[quote]However my main point is simple, you cannot negotiate with someone who does not accept or recognize your existence. It is actually as simple as that.

Once hamas do this the ball will be in the Israeli court and they will have to respond.

Until then it is nothing Israel really needs to do. how can you do anything if you don’t exist.

Hamas and the rest need to pull away from Irans influence otherwise it will never happen. Iran’s constitution basically calls for Israels destruction, and they are trying to achieve this by proxy.[/quote]

Simple. Include discussion on the charter in the negotiations somewhere.

[Jaboney]

Not so long ago, there were people saying they would never accept sitting down to negotiate with the IRA so long as it retained arms. A way was found.

[bigduke6]

@Jaboney

Not so long ago, there were people saying they would never accept sitting down to negotiate with the IRA so long as it retained arms. A way was found.

Yes, but the IRA could negotiate as they recognized Britain as a state, and did not publicly state on numerous occassions that they wanted Britain wiped off the map and drive all the protestants into the sea.
Also this situation was driven by unionists and nationalists. One basically calling themselves British/Protestant and another Irish/Catholic. The unionists were quite happy to have the British army there.

Different situation all together. Not even worth comparing.

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

Furthermore, liberals and the left continue to incessantly criticize Israel and offer ‘token’ criticisms when the Palestinians perpetuate something especially egregious.

Why is that?

It seems that Israel’s worst sin was that it was successful in defending itself. It’s like being ganged up on by a bunch of thugs and then getting arrested for assault and battery.

Does anyone have a cogent reason for why this is?

[Jaboney]

@Got To Be Kidding

Does anyone have a cogent reason for why this is?

You’ve asked for reasons and proofs, but decline to respond.
So, are you really asking? Is there any reason to bother answering?

[bigduke6]

[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“bigduke6”]

For the most part you are blaming the Israelis.[/quote]

You must have missed all my posts mentioning both sides.

[quote]However my main point is simple, you cannot negotiate with someone who does not accept or recognize your existence. It is actually as simple as that.

Once hamas do this the ball will be in the Israeli court and they will have to respond.

Until then it is nothing Israel really needs to do. how can you do anything if you don’t exist.

Hamas and the rest need to pull away from Irans influence otherwise it will never happen. Iran’s constitution basically calls for Israels destruction, and they are trying to achieve this by proxy.[/quote]

Simple. Include discussion on the charter in the negotiations somewhere.[/quote]

I have read your posts. They are definitely leaning far towards the Palestinians.

Include discussing the charter in negotiations. Again, hamas needs to recognize Israels right to exist prior to any negotiation. Otherwise they can refuse to recognize the outcomes and obligations of any negotiation. This is simple.
You really do not understand the realities of this situation at all. How do you negotiate with someone who does not recognize your existence? Please explain? It os not possible. If they do not recognize Israel, they will definitely not recognize the Israeli gov and the negotiating team.
The Israelis should refuse to recognize the existence of a future Palestinian state until hamas recognizes their right to exist.

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

@Jaboney

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]Does anyone have a cogent reason for why this is?

You’ve asked for reasons and proofs, but decline to respond.
So, are you really asking? Is there any reason to bother answering?[/quote]

Jaboney, you don’t have reasons or proofs. There’s no way to get them from you. You’ve been caught by one side of the argument and don’t understand how this started or where it’s going.

I have seen both sides. I’ve watched both sides. I have friends on both sides. I’ve been there.

I guess that what I’m really mystified about is why the Left can be so gullible. Maybe that’s it.

[Jaboney]

Riiiight.[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”][quote=“Jaboney”]Very hard to imagine how peace could grow out of how many decades of both sides embracing violence and propaganda, and yet claiming victimization. [/quote]Israelis embrace violence?

You obviously don’t know Israelis. They do NOT embrace violence. It’s not in their religion. It’s not in their society. It’s not in their individuality.[/quote]

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Wall St Journal”]GAZA BORDER –
[…]
Some, like Mr. Danino, are here to egg on friends and family members in the fight.
[…]
“a kind of catharsis for me, to get rid of all the anxiety we have inside us after years of rocket fire” from Hamas.
[…]
Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza.

“Look at that,” she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. “Bravo! Bravo!”
[…]
She acknowledges an uncomfortable, self-conscious awareness that she is cheering on a deadly war.
[…]
A father of six, Mr. Al-Beyali says he thinks of the Palestinian children suffering in the cold, with little food or safety, under the barrage. “When I see my children, I feel ashamed and guilty. I feel like I should find a way to go over there and fight the Israelis.”

“Injustice, injustice,” he mumbles.[/quote]

Both sides embrace violence and portray themselves as victims. I think my perspective is pretty fair and accurate.
[/quote]
I thank you for saving me the time and trouble of bothering in the future.

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

[quote=“Jaboney”]Riiiight.[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”][quote=“Jaboney”]Very hard to imagine how peace could grow out of how many decades of both sides embracing violence and propaganda, and yet claiming victimization. [/quote]Israelis embrace violence?

You obviously don’t know Israelis. They do NOT embrace violence. It’s not in their religion. It’s not in their society. It’s not in their individuality.[/quote]

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Wall St Journal”]GAZA BORDER –
[…]
Some, like Mr. Danino, are here to egg on friends and family members in the fight.
[…]
“a kind of catharsis for me, to get rid of all the anxiety we have inside us after years of rocket fire” from Hamas.
[…]
Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza.

“Look at that,” she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. “Bravo! Bravo!”
[…]
She acknowledges an uncomfortable, self-conscious awareness that she is cheering on a deadly war.
[…]
A father of six, Mr. Al-Beyali says he thinks of the Palestinian children suffering in the cold, with little food or safety, under the barrage. “When I see my children, I feel ashamed and guilty. I feel like I should find a way to go over there and fight the Israelis.”

“Injustice, injustice,” he mumbles.[/quote]

Both sides embrace violence and portray themselves as victims. I think my perspective is pretty fair and accurate.
[/quote]
I thank you for saving me the time and trouble of bothering in the future.[/quote]

There you go again. No perspective. Cherry picking newspaper articles written by journalists who have spent maybe two weeks in the region is not a good way to come to an understanding of the causes and solutions to this conflict.

Please, let’s not be gullible.

[bigduke6]

[quote=“Jaboney”]Riiiight.[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”][quote=“Jaboney”]Very hard to imagine how peace could grow out of how many decades of both sides embracing violence and propaganda, and yet claiming victimization. [/quote]Israelis embrace violence?

You obviously don’t know Israelis. They do NOT embrace violence. It’s not in their religion. It’s not in their society. It’s not in their individuality.[/quote]

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Wall St Journal”]GAZA BORDER –
[…]
Some, like Mr. Danino, are here to egg on friends and family members in the fight.
[…]
“a kind of catharsis for me, to get rid of all the anxiety we have inside us after years of rocket fire” from Hamas.
[…]
Jocelyn Znaty, a stout 60-year-old nurse for Magen David Adom, the Israeli counterpart of the Red Cross, can hardly contain her glee at the site of exploding mortars below in Gaza.

“Look at that,” she shouts, clapping her hands as four artillery rounds pound the territory in quick succession. “Bravo! Bravo!”
[…]
She acknowledges an uncomfortable, self-conscious awareness that she is cheering on a deadly war.
[…]
A father of six, Mr. Al-Beyali says he thinks of the Palestinian children suffering in the cold, with little food or safety, under the barrage. “When I see my children, I feel ashamed and guilty. I feel like I should find a way to go over there and fight the Israelis.”

“Injustice, injustice,” he mumbles.[/quote]

Both sides embrace violence and portray themselves as victims. I think my perspective is pretty fair and accurate.
[/quote]
I thank you for saving me the time and trouble of bothering in the future.[/quote]

Well at least the Israeli woman acknowledged an “uncomfortable, self concious awareness cheering on a deadly war”. The Palestinian mumbled “injustice, injustice.” On side is acknowledging the wrong, the other is not.
While your analysis might be relatively fair and partly accurate (I say this loosely), it simplifies a much larger geo-political situation that is the root cause.
You have plenty muslim countries calling for the destruction of Israel or not recognizing Israels right to exist. Many of these surround Israel. Also look at the size of Israel compared to them. By giving the Sinai back to Egypt they gave away a huge buffer zone, not to mention large oil reserves. This is not the actions of a aggressive, war mongering, expansionist nation. It is the actions of one looking for peace.
Also look at the size of Israels waist if the Palestinians get all they ask for. Barely defensible. You do not give this much land away until your security is guaranteed. It is suicidal.

[cfimages]

[quote=“bigduke6”][quote=“cfimages”][quote=“bigduke6”]

For the most part you are blaming the Israelis.[/quote]

You must have missed all my posts mentioning both sides.

[quote]However my main point is simple, you cannot negotiate with someone who does not accept or recognize your existence. It is actually as simple as that.

Once hamas do this the ball will be in the Israeli court and they will have to respond.

Until then it is nothing Israel really needs to do. how can you do anything if you don’t exist.

Hamas and the rest need to pull away from Irans influence otherwise it will never happen. Iran’s constitution basically calls for Israels destruction, and they are trying to achieve this by proxy.[/quote]

Simple. Include discussion on the charter in the negotiations somewhere.[/quote]

I have read your posts. They are definitely leaning far towards the Palestinians.

Include discussing the charter in negotiations. Again, hamas needs to recognize Israels right to exist prior to any negotiation. Otherwise they can refuse to recognize the outcomes and obligations of any negotiation. This is simple.
You really do not understand the realities of this situation at all. How do you negotiate with someone who does not recognize your existence? Please explain? It os not possible. If they do not recognize Israel, they will definitely not recognize the Israeli gov and the negotiating team.
The Israelis should refuse to recognize the existence of a future Palestinian state until hamas recognizes their right to exist.[/quote]

My POV is toward a solution that is fair and just for both sides. If you see that as leaning towards the Palestinians then that says more about your position than mine.

Of course you can include the charter in negotiations. It can easily be one of Israel’s cards to play. Your alternative of doing nothing until Hamas changes just means a continuation of the current situation of blockades, human rights abuses, gunships, rockets, assassinations and bombings. What’s the point? We already know it’s a failed policy and doesn’t work. Unless you can offer a workable alternative, what have you got to lose? All Israel has to do is invite Hamas to the negotiating table with everything up for discussion, freeze/remove illegal settlements and allow aid through, and then all the pressure (and blame) will be on the Palestinians.

[bigduke6]

[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“bigduke6”][quote=“cfimages”][quote=“bigduke6”]

For the most part you are blaming the Israelis.[/quote]

You must have missed all my posts mentioning both sides.

[quote]However my main point is simple, you cannot negotiate with someone who does not accept or recognize your existence. It is actually as simple as that.

Once hamas do this the ball will be in the Israeli court and they will have to respond.

Until then it is nothing Israel really needs to do. how can you do anything if you don’t exist.

Hamas and the rest need to pull away from Irans influence otherwise it will never happen. Iran’s constitution basically calls for Israels destruction, and they are trying to achieve this by proxy.[/quot

Simple. Include discussion on the charter in the negotiations somewhere.[/quote]

I have read your posts. They are definitely leaning far towards the Palestinians.

Include discussing the charter in negotiations. Again, hamas needs to recognize Israels right to exist prior to any negotiation. Otherwise they can refuse to recognize the outcomes and obligations of any negotiation. This is simple.
You really do not understand the realities of this situation at all. How do you negotiate with someone who does not recognize your existence? Please explain? It os not possible. If they do not recognize Israel, they will definitely not recognize the Israeli gov and the negotiating team.
The Israelis should refuse to recognize the existence of a future Palestinian state until hamas recognizes their right to exist.[/quote]

My POV is toward a solution that is fair and just for both sides. If you see that as leaning towards the Palestinians then that says more about your position than mine.

Of course you can include the charter in negotiations. It can easily be one of Israel’s cards to play. Your alternative of doing nothing until Hamas changes just means a continuation of the current situation of blockades, human rights abuses, gunships, rockets, assassinations and bombings. What’s the point? We already know it’s a failed policy and doesn’t work. Unless you can offer a workable alternative, what have you got to lose? All Israel has to do is invite Hamas to the negotiating table with everything up for discussion, freeze/remove illegal settlements and allow aid through, and then all the pressure (and blame) will be on the Palestinians.[/quote][/quote]

See below

In February 2008 a Haaretz poll indicated that 64% of Israelis favour their government holding direct talks with Hamas in Gaza about a cease-fire and the release of captives.[347]
According to a November 2009 survey conducted by Haaretz, 57% of Israelis support the view of MK Shaul Mofaz of Kadima, that Israel should establish a dialogue with Hamas under certain conditions, for example, that Hamas renounces violence, recognizes Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish nation, and loses its designation as a terrorist organization. Hamas responded to this by labeling it “Zionist vulgarity” [b]and stating that they will never negotiate with or recognize their “enemy”, the state of Israel[/b]

How exactly do you begin to negotiate? Please note the what hamas says about negotiations.

[Got_To_Be_Kidding]

So, let me get this straight. Hamas has demonstrated a determination to eliminate the State of Israel and kill all the Jews - in both word and deed.

You think that Israel can negotiate with something like that?

Do we have examples of this ever working anywhere in the world?

[bigduke6]

[quote=“Got To Be Kidding”]So, let me get this straight. Hamas has demonstrated a determination to eliminate the State of Israel and kill all the Jews - in both word and deed.

You think that Israel can negotiate with something like that?

Do we have examples of this ever working anywhere in the world?[/quote]

Of course. In Never Never land, and the peace negotiations between the Smurfs and Gargamel.

[cfimages]

The IRA situation was mentioned before. Add to that the Maoist war in Nepal. That’s two. I’m sure you can google a few more. Regardless, the current situation isn’t working so unless you want to continue with more killing, isn’t it about time to try something else?