Heads up: Yelling at Taiwanese assistants

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
1

Sorry for the stereotypical title, unfortunately, the situation falls in a stereotypical area.

A small example:
My wife was witness of a foreigner (let’s call him Scott) yelling at a Taiwanese assistant teacher. The cause of the outrage had something to do with, “you don’t show me any respect” and “you don’t understand me”.

She didn’t pay attention to details because at Future Heir, they keep their teachers rather busy both foreigner and otherwise.

To newbie teachers (take the newbie definition as you see fit):
People talk to each other, so once you “explode”, that’s it for your reputation. It’s a deep hole most don’t crawl out of.

Teachers will also tell their husbands/boyfriends. You should have more foresight before yelling at one of our wives, the mother of our child(ren) and daughters of Taiwan.

Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?

Veterans:
Any stories to share?

2

If you are not the boss and yell at someone, you will indeed dig yourself into a very deep hole. One that you will probably never get out of. I’ve seen this happen several times. I remember a good friend who snapped back after being interrupted by an assistant (inadvertently) while eating his lunch. The manager saw it. He was never asked back for the many (fairly well paid) interpreting gigs that followed. I suggested bringing him back a few times and someone finally took me aside to explain that the ‘yelling’ (it really didn’t rise to that level) had made him persona non grata because he was ‘difficult’.

Now if you are the boss, standard practice is to yell at your employees with impunity. Actually, don’t do this though because now some people are suing their bosses for public humiliation. Really.

I’m not sure that in the story told above that his reputation was shot because he was a foreigner. Its because he tried to pull rank on someone else. The assistant may be called an assistant, but it doesn’t mean you can order them around or yell at them ‘as if you were the boss.’ I think that violates deeply held Taiwanese ideas about equality among fellow employees.

3

I was told he denied it when approached and he didn’t get in trouble because none of the managers physically saw it.

4

[quote=“Savvon”]Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?
[/quote]

I wouldn’t do anything unless it reached the level of assault in some way. My wife is perfectly capable of handling such a situation herself. I’d give the guy the cold shoulder inthe future if I ever saw him, but otherwise, what could you do? Threaten him? Yell at him? Give him a stern talking to?

But yes, yelling is bad here, even when perfectly justified. But isn’t yelling at a fellow employee pretty much frowned upon anywhere? I don’t think it’s just in Taiwan that workers feel an unspoken sense of equality. Think of any work environment you’ve been in where someone loses it. They don’t get it back without a lot of time passing and a lot of humble pie eaten.

I’m glad I don’t have to work with others. I have a short temper. Fortunately anyone I yell at I won’t be seeing again ever. :laughing:

5

Hey,

I got one for ya!

I was working at a school, who shall remain nameless, but it has a 3-letter name.

My Taiwanese co-teacher in one of my classes seemed to hate me from day one. Why, no idea.

Had good working relationship with all other coteachers, tried to be extra nice to her, etc.

One day, just as I was leaving the school, she runs down the stairs and comes up to me and accuses, NOT ASKS, me of taking her flashcards.

I tell her that I didnt, she should look carefully for them, as I had put them back in her teaching basket. She was in the room the whole time, BTW.

She demanded to search my bookbag. I refused and she tried to grab it. Seriously, that biatch should immigrate and get a job with the TSA.

I opened my bag and took out every single item. Surprise! NO FLASHCARDS! I accompany her back upstairs and sure enough, in 30 seconds (or less) I locate them in her teaching basket, which she claimed to have looked through.

Never got an apology, school manager made excuses about her being young and new, etc

Recently heard that she had a nervous breakdown about a year ago. :roflmao: Couldnt have happened to somebody who deserved it more.

So, Savvon, don’t do the same as many new (I’m assuming) foreginers who are still in the honeymoon phase.

You will see a tremendous amoutn of BS in the buxiban industry, but it comes from all sides and all levels of management, not just your alcoholic Saffies and Canadian stoners growing weed on their balconies :astonished:

BTW, let me make clear that regardless of where such behavior originates, it is NOT appropriate. However, it sounded kind of funny, with the foreigner hollerign about “you don’t respect me”. That sounds like something I have usuallly heard coming from Taiwanese middle management, usually from people who got no respect bcuz they deserved none.

br

UJ

6

Hello UncleJamie,

Great story! :laughing:

However, what do you mean exactly when you said the quoted above?

7

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“Savvon”]

But yes, yelling is bad here, even when perfectly justified. But isn’t yelling at a fellow employee pretty much frowned upon anywhere? I don’t think it’s just in Taiwan that workers feel an unspoken sense of equality. Think of any work environment you’ve been in where someone loses it. They don’t get it back without a lot of time passing and a lot of humble pie eaten.

[/quote][/quote]

Good point. Some foreigners here though seem to think that they have special rights to boss Taiwanese around who are lower on the totem pole. They don’t. What’s even more tricky is that you can’t tell someone what to do even if they are nominally your assistant or you are their manager. You have to persuade them to work with you, not for you. Again, that’s probably true anywhere, but it’s especially true in Taiwan.

8

[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“Savvon”]

But yes, yelling is bad here, even when perfectly justified. But isn’t yelling at a fellow employee pretty much frowned upon anywhere? I don’t think it’s just in Taiwan that workers feel an unspoken sense of equality. Think of any work environment you’ve been in where someone loses it. They don’t get it back without a lot of time passing and a lot of humble pie eaten.

[/quote][/quote]

Good point. Some foreigners here though seem to think that they have special rights to boss Taiwanese around who are lower on the totem pole. They don’t. What’s even more tricky is that you can’t tell someone what to do even if they are nominally your assistant or you are their manager. You have to persuade them to work with you, not for you. Again, that’s probably true anywhere, but it’s especially true in Taiwan.[/quote]

Yep, I learned that the hard way the one time I was in a supervising position at a publishing company. Ran into the old “I don’t want to do what you asked so I’ll say yes but do the worst job I can; in fact, I’ll do exactly what you specifically asked me not to do.” I lost it, and scolded the person in the office without thinking that everyone around could hear.

The loss of face for her was terrible and she quit the next day. Which was honestly fine by me, but I did learn a valuable lesson: I don’t want to work with Taiwanese. :laughing:

9

leadership is influence.
influence requires persuasion.
here is the bible for this.
the concepts here strike primal and instinctual triggers that are widely agnostic of culture.

10

How on earth can you read a book by someone who writes “PHD” after their name on the cover? As my anthropology professor taught me: “Only quacks and people catering to morons flaunt their qualifications on a book cover. Real academics let the text speak for itself”.

Yeah, and don’t shout at the assistants. There are subtler ways of bending them to your will. :wink:

11

This is the only way I’m interested in persuading people to work “with me”! It worked very well for 20+ years! :discodance:

12

[quote]not just your alcoholic Saffies and Canadian stoners[/quote] :unamused:
Are we all alkies? Are all Canucks stoners? Where you from, esteemed bruvva - the Land Of All That Is Perfect?

I had an awesome working relationship with my TA. We worked together for the best part of three years and never once had an issue. She wasn’t much good at assisting in the teaching side of things (not that I needed it at that stage), and she was rather timid, but the kids loved her and she was very good with the parents.

If there were any complaints about me from them, those complaints never got back to me. Then again, I was often at the front door when they arrived to pick up their sprogs.

There were some surly TA’s at Joy, where I started out, but I never got lippy with them and they weren’t rude to me ever.

Damn, in that post it seems like I come from the Land Of All That Is Perfect :whistle:

13

[quote=“Baas Babelaas”][quote]not just your alcoholic Saffies and Canadian stoners[/quote] :unamused:
Are we all alkies? Are all Canucks stoners? Where you from, esteemed bruvva - the Land Of All That Is Perfect?

[/quote]

what about the alcoholic Canadians and the stoner Saffies? Let’s not exclude that demographic now.

14

Or the boozehound pothead Saffas who hang with dopehead drunkard Canucks… :lick:

15

[quote=“jimipresley”]How on earth can you read a book by someone who writes “PHD” after their name on the cover? As my anthropology professor taught me: “Only quacks and people catering to morons flaunt their qualifications on a book cover. Real academics let the text speak for itself”.

Yeah, and don’t shout at the assistants. There are subtler ways of bending them to your will. :wink:[/quote]

Despite what his publisher decided to put on the cover, these concepts are solid and effective.

We’ve met and spoken. I wouldn’t recommend something to you that I didn’t think was worthwhile.

These concepts are so effective, in the business world they are often referred to as “The Six Weapons of Influence”. These concepts were recently used by a small software shop who released an application a few weeks ago. On day zero, they had zero users. On day 18, they had 1.5 Million users.

It’s fairly surprising how few people have studied and applied these tactics. Those who have done so have done quite well with them.

I’ve used these concepts myself. People I have managed have often said that they never feel like they are working “for” me. I never explicitly ask people to work nights and weekends. Yet there is still frequent activity in our product development at 3AM on a weekday or 3PM on a weekend day.

The Harvard Business Review synopsis of this book is a great 5-page summary of the concepts in this book. It can be found here: bit.ly/cTGW3W It’s a good 5-page read.

As for the person who would actually yell at their assistant as if that would influence the assistant to actually do anything, oh well… no use in worrying about them. A person who would do that sort of thing sends a strong signal that they will likely never lead any sort of organization in their life. Not worth the effort to even think about them.

16

I agree that shouting at people is generally a bad idea, unless they are about to step on a land mine or something.

17

From my PDF:

  1. Reciprocation – giving a little in order to take more
  2. Commitment and consistency – playing off our internal need to be consistent with ourselves
  3. Social proof – the power of what other people are doing
  4. Liking – positive associations
  5. Authority – amazing what we’ll do for someone who appears to be in authority
  6. Scarcity – we want things more when they are few

The book is filled with common sense wrapped in your typical “power” word cloud, pretty much what you would expect from a self-help book. I would of enjoyed an audio version more (need help sleeping at nights). :wink:

*Edit
The above statement looks a lot harsher than I meant it. I’m just bustin’ your balls a little is all. :wink:

18

Hey Savvon,

Just meant that as you seem to be new here, you may have an easier time seeing the “ugly foreigner” aspect of things, while not seeing how the locals have their own way of being complete and utter f*cktards.

Every culture has it’s own unique little ways of how people do things, including abusing/f’ing with each other.

As for the Saffies/Canucks comment, maybe I should have taken a moment and looked for a SARCASM smiley. (Is there one? I shall go look in a moment).

And welcome, savvon. really liked some of the idead in your gardening/philosophy of life thread.

br

UJ

19

I made this mistake once, but it was after 6 months of pain and strife, as no one had ever bothered to clue me in on how to do my job best at that school. Told them I had no experience, told them I needed training, was told I would be fine, and that was a straight up lie. I feel awful that I took it out on someone who was putting up with twice the shit at half the pay. Sure am glad I left that job.

20

[quote=“UncleJamie”]Just meant that as you seem to be new here, you may have an easier time seeing the “ugly foreigner” aspect of things, while not seeing how the locals have their own way of being complete and utter f*cktards.

And welcome, savvon. really liked some of the idead in your gardening/philosophy of life thread.[/quote]

Ahh, I understand.

I am new to this forum, not to Taiwan. I would say I have adapted differently than the people I have come in contact with to say the least.

Also, thanks for the compliment about the other thread. Gardening is my “self help book”. :wink: