It happens the other way too. The Taiwanese yell at us for no good reason at times. Here is my story right here [url]Has professionalism just gone out the window?
[quote=“mabagal”]These concepts are so effective, in the business world they are often referred to as “The Six Weapons of Influence”. These concepts were recently used by a small software shop who released an application a few weeks ago. On day zero, they had zero users. On day 18, they had 1.5 Million users.
It’s fairly surprising how few people have studied and applied these tactics. Those who have done so have done quite well with them.
I’ve used these concepts myself. [/quote]
I don’t know man, you just aren’t influencing me in the slightest to want to pick up this book. That’s a pretty strong anti-selling point to me. 
[quote=“the bear”][quote=“Baas Babelaas”][quote]not just your alcoholic Saffies and Canadian stoners[/quote] 
Are we all alkies? Are all Canucks stoners? Where you from, esteemed bruvva - the Land Of All That Is Perfect?
[/quote]
what about the alcoholic Canadians and the stoner Saffies? Let’s not exclude that demographic now.[/quote]
That’s a good point! How bout the alcoholic stoners and the Canadian Saffies? What are you, some kind of bigot?
Savvon, I have three major thoughts concerning your OP.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]
I wouldn’t do anything unless it reached the level of assault in some way. My wife is perfectly capable of handling such a situation herself.[/quote]
:bravo:
- I enjoyed the above as, Savvon, I found your original post to be smacking of chauvinism:
[quote]Teachers will also tell their husbands/boyfriends. You should have more foresight before yelling at one of our wives, the mother of our child(ren) and daughters of Taiwan.
Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?[/quote]
Being cordial in the workplace has nothing to do with whether one is male or female, or whether another is someone’s wife or daughter. And however unnecessary verbal abuse is, I can’t see how the situation would be improved by having a husband, father or boyfriend threaten any foreigner who had complained too vociferously about not being respected. Besides which, some foreign teachers are female and some assistants are male.
I feel that anyone yelling at a woman should be asking themselves why they need to yell at another human being. Why should the person undergoing the treatment be defined in terms of her roles as a male’s partner, daughter, or mother?
- Putting aside my dismay at the inherent sexism of the post though, let me state that of course foreigners working in Taiwan should show respect to their Taiwanese colleagues and vice versa. While I have seldom seen anger expressed openly between foreign and Taiwanese co-workers, I’ve been bemused, amused, and disturbed by anger expressed in open by both hothead teachers and arrogant Taiwanese management - ending badly in most cases, regardless of which party was ranting. Nevertheless, it is difficult to know what actually happened in the situation you originally used as an example.
We simply do not know. The angry teacher may not have been disrespected at all, with the assistant offering all assistance without hesitation. Alternatively, he may have been provoked to the point at which most rational people would have snapped.
After all, I am reading your version of a story that was itself related to you by your wife who, as you state:
- It would be nice to live in a world in which everyone respected everyone else and in which everyone deserved respect. And I do do what I can to treat all in my workplace with respect. But it’s easier for me in my present job at the university where I have amazing colleagues. Taiwanese/foreigner, native speaker/Taiwanese colleague relationships are fraught with difficulties (especially in the usual buxiban set-up). Both the foreigners and the Taiwanese teachers/assistants often leave the classroom and bitch about the other side. You and I know that both the teacher and the assistant are real human beings with both good and bad characteristics, but a teacher’s friends have probably told him (if we assume maleness here) to expect a lack of respect instead of help from any assistant, while certain assistants have no doubt entered classrooms expecting nothing but laziness and arrogance from native speaking teachers.
So while I imagine that the teacher in the situation you described was probably being an asshole (based on my own biases against foreign teachers) let me clarify my thoughts by reiterating that …
- There’s no reason to be silly and sexist about it.
- There’s reason to be cautious before judging situations when we have few details.
- There’s a need for more respect from both sides of the teaching divide.
My
[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“Savvon”]
But yes, yelling is bad here, even when perfectly justified. But isn’t yelling at a fellow employee pretty much frowned upon anywhere? I don’t think it’s just in Taiwan that workers feel an unspoken sense of equality. Think of any work environment you’ve been in where someone loses it. They don’t get it back without a lot of time passing and a lot of humble pie eaten.
[/quote][/quote]
Good point. Some foreigners here though seem to think that they have special rights to boss Taiwanese around who are lower on the totem pole. They don’t. What’s even more tricky is that you can’t tell someone what to do even if they are nominally your assistant or you are their manager. You have to persuade them to work with you, not for you. Again, that’s probably true anywhere, but it’s especially true in Taiwan.[/quote]
Yes Taiwanese respect age. If you are older, they tend to listen to you. IF you are not you really need to look and act the part of a manager and you need to do what my (Swiss) manager always did with us if he wanted us to do something. He would say “we” need to do … and … Of course it was understood he meant “YOU” need to do…and… But it was nicer and got the point across clearly with no dissent. And there is an office heiarchy that you need to be aware of. I worked for this very same Swiss manager as his assistant but I couldnt get any of the staff to do anything for or with me to do my job. It was because I had ignored the Taiwanese office manager. Once I went to him to ask for his assistance, he told everyone to work with me and that was that. It was all easy after that.
Taiwanese workers are indeed sensitive and they need to feel you have the right to govern them so its better to be polite and find a way to work with each other, because that is really the ONLY way. One foreign manager yelled at another foreign manager (who he thought he outranked) but the General Manager heard the commotion , came running over. And he was about 6ft 4 and looked like a bull, and fired the guy on the spot. I remember him shouting “I am the ONLY one allowed to raise my voice here…do YOU understand that??”
SO yes, no matter if you are foreign or Taiwanese , do NOT yell at the office EVER.
[quote=“UncleJamie”]Hey,
I got one for ya!
I was working at a school, who shall remain nameless, but it has a 3-letter name.
My Taiwanese co-teacher in one of my classes seemed to hate me from day one. Why, no idea.
Had good working relationship with all other coteachers, tried to be extra nice to her, etc.
One day, just as I was leaving the school, she runs down the stairs and comes up to me and accuses, NOT ASKS, me of taking her flashcards.
I tell her that I didnt, she should look carefully for them, as I had put them back in her teaching basket. She was in the room the whole time, BTW.
She demanded to search my bookbag. I refused and she tried to grab it. Seriously, that biatch should immigrate and get a job with the TSA.
I opened my bag and took out every single item. Surprise! NO FLASHCARDS! I accompany her back upstairs and sure enough, in 30 seconds (or less) I locate them in her teaching basket, which she claimed to have looked through.
Never got an apology, school manager made excuses about her being young and new, etc
Recently heard that she had a nervous breakdown about a year ago. :roflmao: Couldnt have happened to somebody who deserved it more.
So, Savvon, don’t do the same as many new (I’m assuming) foreginers who are still in the honeymoon phase.
You will see a tremendous amoutn of BS in the buxiban industry, but it comes from all sides and all levels of management, not just your alcoholic Saffies and Canadian stoners growing weed on their balconies 
BTW, let me make clear that regardless of where such behavior originates, it is NOT appropriate. However, it sounded kind of funny, with the foreigner hollerign about “you don’t respect me”. That sounds like something I have usuallly heard coming from Taiwanese middle management, usually from people who got no respect bcuz they deserved none.
br
UJ[/quote]
Thin line between love and hate. Maybe she actually liked you and wanted to go out with you and you “dissed” her somehow ,hence her frustration? IF she was cute and that happened, Id ask her out.
Threadkiller,
I apologized for the stereotypical topic in the beginning of my first post. It is not chauvinism or sexism. When I used an example of a Taiwanese female assistant teacher, it’s statistically accurate. Also, I only referred to one foreigner being male and that is the one in my example. I have seen a foreigner female teacher lose it too, but I didn’t think bringing it up would be relevant.
I personally have never met a male Taiwanese assistant teacher and I have never met a foreigner assistant teacher. Currently at Future Heir school there are many assistant teachers, every single one being Taiwanese and female. I am sure you have met a male assistant teacher in your journeys in Taiwan, but that does not change the fact that female Taiwanese mostly fill the role of assistant teacher.
This does not make me a chauvinist nor does it make me sexist simply because I acknowledge and recognize a pattern.
I sent the second half of Savvon’s last post and some following posts here: Please refrain from name calling
[quote=“Savvon”]Sorry for the stereotypical title, unfortunately, the situation falls in a stereotypical area.
A small example:
My wife was witness of a foreigner (let’s call him Scott) yelling at a Taiwanese assistant teacher. The cause of the outrage had something to do with, “you don’t show me any respect” and “you don’t understand me”.
She didn’t pay attention to details because at Future Heir, they keep their teachers rather busy both foreigner and otherwise.
To newbie teachers (take the newbie definition as you see fit):
People talk to each other, so once you “explode”, that’s it for your reputation. It’s a deep hole most don’t crawl out of.
Teachers will also tell their husbands/boyfriends. You should have more foresight before yelling at one of our wives, the mother of our child(ren) and daughters of Taiwan.
Ask yourself, what would you do if some “foreigner” yelled at your wife/girlfriend?
Veterans:
Any stories to share?[/quote]
My thoughts on this are that these kinds of incidents are not uniquely “foreigner,” “Taiwanese” or “newbie teacher” issues. They are human being issues. I am a little surprised at the judgements made by the OP who a) didn’t witness the incident and b) is basing his assessment on an anecdotal account from someone who didn’t “pay attention to details.”
No, yelling at people is not a nice thing to do to someone. On the other hand, what human is perfect? Everyone has a bad day sometimes, screws up or otherwise behaves out of character. And, sometimes, people provoke others into losing their patience through their own actions. Do we really know what happened between these two people? No. I don’t think there is enough info here to reliably conclude anything about the incident recounted, except that it isn’t anyone’s business and it occured between an asian female and a Caucasian (“foreigner”) male. Incidentally, though, there are a couple of negative “isms” associated with immediately favoring one race and gender over another race and gender in a dispute, especially when virtually nothing else is known about the “details” of the dispute.
It is amazing how this thread turned into an analyzing Savvon thread.
I will break it down for you…
Though I have not witnessed this one example, I have witnessed forefingers yell at Taiwanese workers because they cracked. I used this example because it is the latest example of many.
I have never met a male Taiwanese assistant teacher. I also have never met a male Taiwanese bank teller either. Of course, by your definition, I am sexist because I notice this. /boggle
So please continue and go off-topic about me and my chauvinistic/sexist attitude instead of sharing your own personal stories and having an informative discussion for (god forbid) future expats to read and learn from.
Lesson learned here. I will be posting less. Sorry to interrupt you all.
[quote=“Savvon”]It is amazing how this thread turned into an analyzing Savvon thread.
I will break it down for you…
Though I have not witnessed this one example, I have witnessed forefingers yell at Taiwanese workers because they cracked. I used this example because it is the latest example of many.[/quote]
And I have witnessed the reverse. And I have also seen people lose it with people who mistreated them, broke their hearts, yelled at them first etc, etc. I do not agree with your observations, nor your conclusions that fault lies with any particular race or gender. Broad sweeping generalizations, especially those of a racial or gendered manner, do not sit well with me.
I have. I have personally worked with several very good local, male co-teachers. And I see males working at banks.
But all of this is beside the point.
You posted something about an argument of some sort between a Taiwanese and a “foreigner.” By your tone, you have already decided who was at fault, based only on the fact that one was a foreign male and the other was a local female. I do not agree with your assessment. Sorry.
[quote=“Savvon”]So please continue and go off-topic about me and my chauvinistic/sexist attitude instead of sharing your own personal stories and having an informative discussion for (god forbid) future expats to read and learn from.
Lesson learned here. I will be posting less. Sorry to interrupt you all.[/quote]
So, I can only have a discussion if I agree with you? And I have shared my experiences and insights in good faith. They just don’t mash well with yours. In my experience, people of all races and genders get into arguments and disagreements. Deciding who is right in any particular argument based on a third-person account or solely on the races and genders involved is wrong IMO. And it hasn’t been my experience that only the “foreigners” or “foreign male newbies” are wrong in these disputes either.
Sorry you seem upset.
Savvon, as a subject for discussion, not everyone is going to agree with your point of view. I agree with Toasty as this being more a human issue, nor is it completely taboo to loose your cool under any circumstances. Most everyone does agree we should all try to behave decently to each other.
The foreign teaching environment may be a bit different, for a whole range of reasons, in my work I have lost it a few times, it didnt result in me being sent to Conventry. Once with a particular ass who was head of another department had his entire team come up and thank me afterwards, he was just an unpleasant person and everyone knew this, once with a subordinate who was also upsetting a lot of people around him, people were not shocked, they had their faces down giggling the whole time I roasted him, he deserved it.
Taiwanese will loose tempers with each other from time to time, in our own countries its the same. I agree to do so without extreme provocation, should be avoided at all costs and will especially if the other person ends up being particularly upset have a very negative impact on how people perceive you. The situation you relay, is very hazy in what context the foreign teacher lost their temper.
I will post a reply here, if anyone is interested to read it. There is such a thing as subtle office bullying. That is were the bully chooses a target to pick on and does intimidating things that others on outside would not interpret as bullying. The target knows however that they are being bullied. Examples can be jokes, snide comments, or refering to some personal information the bully knows about the target. The target has to put up with little barbs all day long because nobody else perceives that they are being bullied. One day, the target decides they have had enough and snaps. The target lashes out at the bully due to the abuse they endure daily. The boss hears about the target’s outburst (not the bully’s behavior). The target gets into trouble and the bully has accomplished his mission 
.
What I am essentially saying here is, that yelling at the Taiwanese assistant was wrong, there may be more to the story than we know.
Look how you stretch and bend my examples so you can promote your crusade. Simply mind boggling.
Lets change the tone shall we?
I have a fun little challenge, not just for you, but for all of you.
Challenge:
Tell me the name of a school in Taiwan that has male teacher assistants, even if it is just one (Bonus points if they are a foreigner).
Tell me the name of the bank and location of the bank in Taiwan that has a male teller. Not manager helping an absent teller, an actual on the clock, job description teller.
Yes, I will call the schools/banks to prove a point here, I have a phone.
After we are done deciding on my narrow minded ignorance, we will do the simple math when we are done and then maybe, just maybe we can see what I was actually trying to say.
Remember, just because I can recognize patterns and see whats in front of my face, does not make me part of the beast that has been alive before I noticed it.
Don’t shoot the messenger. 
Look how you stretch and bend my examples so you can promote your crusade. Simply mind boggling.
Lets change the tone shall we?
I have a fun little challenge, not just for you, but for all of you.
Challenge:
Tell me the name of a school in Taiwan that has male teacher assistants, even if it is just one (Bonus points if they are a foreigner).
Tell me the name of the bank and location of the bank in Taiwan that has a male teller. Not manager helping an absent teller, an actual on the clock, job description teller.
Yes, I will call the schools/banks to prove a point here, I have a phone.
After we are done deciding on my narrow minded ignorance, we will do the simple math when we are done and then maybe, just maybe we can see what I was actually trying to say.
Remember, just because I can recognize patterns and see whats in front of my face, does not make me part of the beast that has been alive before I noticed it.
Don’t shoot the messenger. [/quote]
What is the point of this line of debate? It’s already been pointed out that your observations about female dominated jobs are completely beside the point and aren’t in dispute. Do you really think they are what people are disagreeing with here?
What is your broader argument exactly? It seems to be:
English teaching and banking are female dominated professions for Taiwan,
Foreign teachers are generally white males
Therefore any foreign teacher in an argument with a local teacher is automatically wrong, engaged in an act of oppression and the [strike]damsel in distress[/strike] local teacher, furthermore, needs assistance from other males.
Think about what you are saying and take a good look back at what has been written here.
The criticisms of your posts have their origins in your observations and conclusions that border on reverse racism and sexism. You took an isolated incident, not even observed by you personally-- and about which the details are not really known, and made all kinds of broad sweeping generalizations about it as well as judgements about the people involved. Believe me, nobody is arguing employment statistics with you here.
But I have another challenge for ya. Rather than asking us to disprove your “leaves are on the trees” red herring about female dominated professions in Taiwan, why don’t you:
Prove that every foreign teacher (except yourself, of course ) is a chauvenistic knuckledragger, newbie or whathaveyounot
Prove that every Taiwanese coteacher is a helpless fawning damsel in distress, needing male protection
Prove that every Caucasian is wrong in disputes
Prove that every asian is right in disputes
In short, prove or defend some of what you have advocated in your OP.
And she wonders why we yell.
[quote=“bob”]And she wonders why we yell.
[/quote]
GET OUTTA HERE!
Savvon, TK was right on target. You assume, that if a woman gets ‘yelled’ at she will take it lying down and go cry on the shoulders of the males around her - bro, dad, BF, hubby.
I laugh coz obviously you haven’t seen many women int he workforce being yelled at and in TW??? No way. If they don’t feign a nervous break down then and there and mortify you enough, they will have your balls in a sling soon enough.
That said, I find your tone in the thread very umm what’s the word, confrontational???
Calm down, breathe, be the garden. Understand the people here, and work with them, you shall bloom.
[quote=“Whole Lotta Lotta”]I will post a reply here, if anyone is interested to read it. There is such a thing as subtle office bullying. That is were the bully chooses a target to pick on and does intimidating things that others on outside would not interpret as bullying. The target knows however that they are being bullied. Examples can be jokes, snide comments, or refering to some personal information the bully knows about the target. The target has to put up with little barbs all day long because nobody else perceives that they are being bullied. One day, the target decides they have had enough and snaps. The target lashes out at the bully due to the abuse they endure daily. The boss hears about the target’s outburst (not the bully’s behavior). The target gets into trouble and the bully has accomplished his mission .
What I am essentially saying here is, that yelling at the Taiwanese assistant was wrong, there may be more to the story than we know.[/quote]
Indeed. I’m amazed at the lack of insight many people in positions of authority have in this respect. What’s even more fucked up is when the colleagues, who have seen the bullying, and maybe even witnessed the person being bullied crying in the toilets or some such warning sign, then feign astonishment when their colleague finally snaps, as though no one could see it coming like a giant, noisy freight train. Everyone is like, “Jesus man, what’s wrong with Mary?” “I know, what a psycho, dude!” People are like a pack of fucking jackals sometimes.
I had a class in Australia once where there was this sneaky little cunt who was always up to no good, but it was really hard to pin anything on him. One day, I suspected he was really needling this other kid (who was a bit soft and a bit of a pain in the arse at the best of times) and the kid finally snapped and went fucking apeshit on him. The first kid had apparently been calling the second kid a retarded rapist (which was all the more fucked up because we had a kid with cerebral palsy in the class). I came down on the second kid, but I really dropped fire on the first kid and told him (in a nicer way, of course) that he was an insidious little cunt, but this time I’d caught him and I was going to hang, draw and quarter his little punk arse. Of course, he thought I was so unreasonable because he wasn’t the one who started ranting and raving and throwing things. Fuck him and all like him.
EDIT* [At one time there were male assistants at the following locations:] end EDIT
Kojen, Global Academy, GEOS (if they’re still in business), Liu Yi, Happy Marion, Happy Kids…just off the top of my head from people I know in the business. All Taiwanese, several ABCs, a couple of them gay, one of them in his mid-50s. Lots of male assistants out there. Most move up to teacher very quickly.
Mega Bank, Anhe Road, Sec. 2, Linjiang St. cross-street, on west-side of street, a block and a half north of Carnegie’s, don’t know the addy but that’s where I do my shit and there’s two male tellers, one of whom has the worst body odor this side of Mumbai. The other is a respectable fella and I see him at the hot pot shop down the street every so often.