How would you discourage "picking on the new guy"?

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From a discussion in the Where Can I Find forum: Where can I find someone to bid at ruten.com.tw for me?

[quote=“Stray Dog”]There is, in fact, a scam called bid-assisting, which involves the victim receiving goods on someone else’s behalf because the bid isn’t open to international bidding.

taihu57, if you’re genuine, my advice is to do a little more than call people jerks.

Goose Egg, you should be protecting Forumosans from this kind of scam. The guy may be genuine, but you really shouldn’t be encouraging people to pay for, receive, and ship goods on a stranger’s behalf.[/quote]

[quote=“I”]I can relate to how taihu57 feels. I needed something on short notice in Shanghai last week, and I posted for help on ShanghaiExpat.com. A couple of wiseass remarks later, I got nothing. The hell I want to go back there for advice. Fortunately, I was able to find what I needed on Alibaba.com (an amazing response, btw), thought it would have been nicer to have gotten some advice from the long-term users of that forum. In the end, I ended up taking a chance with a vendor in Beijing I’ve never done business with

Sandy, is it too much to expect you to have posted more like what you did above, than with the wiseacre remark. This is supposed to be the WCIF forum. It would have been more appropriate for you to quote taihu57’s post and post your joke in the Temp forum. I’m all for Forumosa being a source of entertainment, but it’s also meant to be a place where people can go to for help[/quote]
I’m looking over what I posted and I do not see where I advocate “encouraging people to pay for, receive, and ship goods on a stranger’s behalf”.

First, I identify with what it’s like to be a new poster who comes to a discussion forum in desperate need. Then I point out that Sandy could have issued his warning (which I noted is helpful to ALL) instead of an obtuse crack designed primarily to alienate the OP.

I actually appreciated hearing about an ecommerce site like ruten.com.tw, although I cannot seem to view it from Shanghai. I’ll check it out when I get the chance. I also appreciate hearing about bid-assisting, and will be on-guard for it should I ever use an auction site (especially in China)

My post is about protecting new Forumosans from bullying. I do not use the site as a reader very much, but as an admin, I see the complaints of Forumosa becoming an “in-club” and of how difficult it can be for a new Forumosan. And I see what this can be like on forums like ShanghaiExpat and TheBeijinger. I’m thankful Forumosa has not reached the depths those sites have reached at times when their long-time users pounce on newbies.

How do you propose I should have “protected Forumosans”? Surely not by mocking the new guy even more? Had Sandy posted his second post first, that would have served enough as a clear and fair warning

I think this could have been handled better. That Sandman happens to also be a moderator here is embarrasing, because we hold mods to a higher standard. Stray Dog, I don’t want you to think this means I’m opening the gates to scammers and grifters; it means that at one post on the forum, we give the new person slack. And if that person does turn out to be a shyster, that’s slack enough for them to hang themselves with.

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But surely the onus is on him to prove that he is not a scammer, no? I thought the tone of both Messrs Dog and man was fine and in fact jokey. Can the OP not see their position?

Anyway I feel it is definitely warranted in this sort of case viewtopic.php?f=39&t=79916

Can we have a rule where restaurant people stop pretending they are customers? As I said in the post nothing says " My customers are brainless and they don’t even know it! HAHAHA" or “I don’t stand behind my product” more than this kind of post.

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Yes, the onus is on the OP. That’s what I meant by giving them enough rope to hang themselves.

I don’t know, some of our favorite Forumosans started out just this way - and have gone on to become friends and popular posters.

What would be more constructive would be to add a post or a link in the Restaurant forums targeting restaurant owners that explains a more effective way to post on Forumosa. That is, maybe links to well-received self-introductions and discussions where restaurant owners and managers have created positive relationships with the website community - that’s leading by example. Instead, what happens is that Forumosa develops a reputation among restaurant entrepreneurs as a place to avoid! Now no one is happy

Naturally, I would like there to be links to how to buy banner space and make the case why it makes sense for new restaurants to advertise here, particularly new western restaurants. We’ll work on that :sunglasses:

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This has long been a problem on this and probably all forums…members with high post counts always feel they have the right to attack newbies at any perceived kind of breach of protocol. check out Visa-free from England as of March 2009? guy got a right good going over for his schoolboy error. And made the same arguments…why be so hostile to newbies?

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Indeed.
Sometimes we are faced with mean-spirited trolls who come to simply flaunt an agenda, witness the flurry of anti-religion trolls a few months back.
Likewise, we have several diametrically opposed regulars who have always disagreed with each other and always will.
Obviously, I myself am a frequent participant in the exchanges resulting from both of these scenarios, and consider it nothing more than healthy discourse. I’ve never complained when slapped with a healthy 2-week timeout as the result of overzealous dust-ups.

But the unwarranted drubbing the OP received in the thread cited by Bear was truly embarrassing to witness.
I hadn’t viewed it until it had reached its current length, at which time it was brought to my attention by a mod.
The fact that the 2 worst offenders are both personal friends IRL, and that one of them is in fact a mod made it all the more shameful.
I remember a time when there was much more aggressive modding to prevent this kind of nasty-ass gangbanging, but it seems to have receded in recent times.
If that’s what it takes for this place to be regarded as something other than nastybastards.com, then so be it.

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I must agree that the thread cited by Mr The Bear contained unwarranted nastiness. I recall my first few posts on forumosa being greeted with disdain and ridicule and was quite affronted at the time. Nonetheless, I was not blind to the inherent dark humour of the protagonists and thus persevered.

There is a contradiction here. Whilst the admin obviously desire the expansion of this board in order to maintain it as more than a mere labour of love, they also rely on the veterans to keep topics alive and to provide assistance to the Taiwan greenhorns. Mr Sandman and Ms Buttercup can be horribly nasty at times, but the contribution that they both make here is invaluable. I personally have seen more willingness to help the newbies out from them than most of the other contributors put together. People have bad hair days. Mr Sandman and Ms Buttercup just happen to have more hair than most people.

I honestly don’t think that newbies are lambasted to the degree that this thread infers. I my experience, I find this forum to be extremely welcoming and informative to new posters. And the villains of the piece are largely to thank for that.

As regards the post that generated this turmoil, I felt it was vague and highly suspicious. I agree with Mr Goose Egg that he/she will eventually hang herself with her own rope. Nonetheless, I didn’t find the cynicism that greeted the OP as totally unwarranted. I’ve had the same shit flung at me and taken it on the chin.

Once again, the contradiction. Do the admin want this to be a sterile info site or do they want it to be a fun forum? A bit of both, I assume. And they’re doing a damn good job of balancing these angles. Let’s not overreact here, friends.

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How? By not assuming the worst of people. By giving the benefit of the doubt. By being NICE, for a bloody change!

[color=#8000BF]Hi, and welcome to Forumosa! :slight_smile:

I understand how frustrating it is not to be able to bid on something abroad, and hopefully someone here will be able to work out a safe method of doing so for you. Please do understand, though, that people may be reluctant, not just due to the hassle involved, but because there is actually a kind of scam in which people ask others to bid for them, and then either don’t pay the money, reverse the charges, claim non-receipt, and so on, and the person helping is stuck holding the bill. You’ll need to pay the person helping in advance, in a non-reversible manner, with a written agreement not to hold them accountable in case of non-receipt of items or other problems with the transaction, in order to alleviate such concerns, before you’ll be likely to get people to help in such a case. BTW, why don’t you let us know what the items are, as someone may know another place for you to order them from that avoids whatever difficulties you’re having in ordering directly from Ruten.

Best of luck with this![/color]

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[quote=“the chief”]But the unwarranted drubbing the OP received in the thread cited by Bear was truly embarrassing to witness…
The fact that the 2 worst offenders are both personal friends IRL, and that one of them is in fact a mod made it all the more shameful.[/quote]
As an ex-mod who has the occasional tendency to shout at people, my mind was ruminating idly yesterday on the possibility that I haven’t been invited back into the moderating fold because I’m not always the nicest of people. That would seem perfectly reasonable, but it does beg the question of why certain mods seem to repeatedly get away with behaviour that others find objectionable.

I don’t know what the guidelines are for mods these days, but in the case above I was quite surprised to see how nasty it got by page 4 when I came back to it. Whoever kicked it from TEIT to Legal should have either intervened before doing so, or given the legal mods a heads-up. And our new legal eagles don’t seem to have been on the ball at all. I agree with the Chief that moderating seems to be a lot less aggressive than it was for a period a few years back.

But on the other hand, is more proactive moderating a realistic goal? Is it too hard for some passing mod to simply say “hey, guys, this is getting out of hand, please tone it down” and maybe alert the appropriate person? It seems that these days it is. I guess the guidelines have been relaxed?

What of the squeal button? I didn’t see any victim, or disgusted passer-by, pressing that. Or if they did it didn’t do any good. Maybe it needs to be more obvious?

And I must say that, apart from not pressing the squeal button, the newbie in question this time didn’t go out of her way to make friends. It’s a classic example of a thread descending into a shit-fight because nobody involved was being mature, including the people who jumped in to defend the newbie. Some people who should have known better contributed on the other side too, it’s not simply grouches ganging up against a newbie. And the newbie is not a complete internet-virgin. As Gus points out, other boards are even less welcoming. So why should anyone wander in here and assume that he/she is allowed to be stupid from the get-go? Forumosa is not unique, and getting grief for transgressions is normal all over the web. I think it’s reasonable to expect newbies to take some responsibility for attracting negative responses.

What does the welcome message for newbies say? Do we encourage them to get a feel for ‘how we do things’ before jumping in? I seem to remember a notice telling people to think before posting in the past.

As for ‘protecting forumosans,’ am I not an adult? Since when is Gus liable for everything posted here? If someone fails their incredibly important English test because they took my free advice online, is that Gus’ fault? Does he need to protect innocent forumosans from my disinformation? Perhaps he should interview all Language Exchange advertisers to make sure they’re not psycho xiaojies or cynical exploitative males before he posts their ads?

Or maybe this is a site for grown-ups, and grown-ups have to take responsibility for taking part in illegal scams or for pissing off the locals. We have our unpaid police, but they can’t be everywhere and in a democracy the responsibility for our collective welfare is our individual responsibility. I know that Flob is not a democracy, but there are always people saying it should be, and int this context they’re right. It’s a community, and if people see it as a community then the community can be self-policing. Appealing to higher authorities is a cop-out. You may as well just move the server to Shanghai and ask the PRC to provide oversight if that’s what you want.

And remember, for every time that something gets out of hand there are countless examples of people being friendly, helpful and taking time out of their day for the benefit of others. Has anyone heard about BULATS? for example. Buttercup may be a bitch when dealing with people who want a fight, but she deserves a commendation for all the nice things she has done for newbies.

And FWIW, I exchanged PMs with the newbie I disagreed with recently. I can’t repeat the content, obviously, but they were positive and I don’t think anyone has been frightened off. Perhaps the other protagonists could be encouraged to make an effort?

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[quote=“jimipresley”]I recall my first few posts on forumosa being greeted with disdain and ridicule and was quite affronted at the time. Nonetheless, I was not blind to the inherent dark humour of the protagonists and thus persevered…

I honestly don’t think that newbies are lambasted to the degree that this thread infers. I my experience, I find this forum to be extremely welcoming and informative to new posters. And the villains of the piece are largely to thank for that…

Once again, the contradiction. Do the admin want this to be a sterile info site or do they want it to be a fun forum? A bit of both, I assume. And they’re doing a damn good job of balancing these angles. Let’s not overreact here, friends.[/quote]
Jimi posted this while I was typing, and he hit the nail on the head. I remember being pilloried when I started posting here, and having to ‘prove myself’ before being accepted. I persevered because it seemed worth it.

Others don’t and that may be their loss, but it may be ours. I think we’re back to the conversation that reappears quite often about what the character of Forumosa is envisaged as being by the owners. As I’ve said before, I favour there being different standards of behaviour in different areas so that people can hang out in the ones that they’re comfortable with.

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What I said in the other thread about taking the rough with the smooth was because I realise that some of the people who post the nastiest stuff are also some of the most helpful and generous people on the board.

I don’t think the basic tone of the forum is ever going to change, and I’ve made my choice to continue using it. There are some very funny and useful posts, some from the people whose other posts I find upsetting. It’s worth staying for the good bits.

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nicam got a ridiculously rough ride, but all he/she had to do was apologise for the error and it would have ended immediately. The general refusal to say sorry on internet forums is a bit mystifying. If I say something stupid or wind someone up I always say sorry, shuts them up immediately.

I think everything on this site is fine as it is, and no changes need to be made. I don’t think it’s an ‘in club’ at all. If anything, the posters who clearly know each other seem to be at each other’s throats much more than with newbies.

I apologise for this post by the way.

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Excellent advice.

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I agree with jimi; how sterile do you want the site to be? For me, the humour in many of the posts is what I like about Forumosa, even though most of the funniest bits are mine.

If this were a pub (I have experience running pubs), I would ask the regular patrons to remember that new customers may not understand the in-jokes and tone, and would step in to guide the conversation so that the newcomer can appreciate that he has walked into a bar with gritty character and shouldn’t get too offended.

I’d then probably jokingly put down the jokers who spoke up when the new guy walked in and let everyone now feel they’re on the same level, and then wait to be the butt of someone else’s joke. I’d do this as I was also getting the new customer what he needs.

If, however, the person walking in seemed to be trying some kind of scam (we saw a lot of these characters in the pub business, and some were so clever that we had no idea we’d been had over until long after the event), then I would be more questioning, but ready to welcome the guy should he turn out to be harmless. A good way to break the ice with someone who at first glance appears to be a scammer is to jokingly call him on it and see how he responds. At the very least he’ll know not to try that scam.

I would also make sure the new guy doesn’t respond in a way that might cause matters to escalate into a serious argument, as the poster did in the the thread posted by the bear. He wasn’t scared off, as some seem to be suggesting; he chose to stand and make a fight of it. Also, if you look, for a newcomer, he just walked in, without introduction, and started asking questions without realising that he might offend. In the ruten thread, the new guy responded to the jokes with a direct insult.

Now, I’m not condoning badgering and bullying of newbies - far from it. I’m saying that you need to take a step back and see the situation for what it really is and then step in to take it where you want it to go. As when I’m training people to fix their dog’s issues - and in fact with anything in life - I suggest asking yourself how you yourself are responsible for whatever unwanted event happened. I guess that’s what this thread is for.

I don’t want to see this place turn into one of those quiet pubs filled with old people quietly sipping away on their half a bitter or glass of sherry while the real characters have moved somewhere else because no one took the lead to control their humour and reactions. You are the host; you are responsible for the mood of the place.

The thread that this thread is in response to, whereby a newcomer came on here and asked if anyone would pay for and receive goods on his/her behalf, began with that request and was followed up by two (intended) humorous responses but hardly what I would call insulting or attacking - I guess that’s the difference between senses of humour between the Brits and the Americans (I don’t include Canada, because (a) they understand our humour better, and (b) they’re not American, and would be offended if we referred to them as such, even though they’re part of the American continent - as would a Scot or Irishman told that he was English [or even British, in the case of the Irishman]).

So, if you want to ensure that matters don’t get out of hand and newcomers don’t feel offended by the humour that prevails on Forumosa, you need to take better control. That is, you need to have ‘hosts’ who are better able to bring the conversation about so that everyone feels they have common ground, understanding, and a desire to make acquaintance with those they are meeting. You need to host more than just the website.

Sean

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Stray Dog is right in pointing out that you don’t want enforced sterility, and that there should be room for humor. That doesn’t mean I like the tone of the thread, though. Assuming the worst of a person, especially a newbie, instead of granting the benefit of the doubt and being welcoming to them, is likely to drive people away, and I think that’s highly detrimental to the site. One can be suspicious of scams and yet polite to a person in case they are not in fact a scammer.

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Stray Dog is right in pointing out that you don’t want enforced sterility, and that there should be room for humor. That doesn’t mean I like the tone of the thread, though. Assuming the worst of a person, especially a newbie, instead of granting the benefit of the doubt and being welcoming to them, is likely to drive people away, and I think that’s highly detrimental to the site. One can be suspicious of scams and yet polite to a person in case they are not in fact a scammer.[/quote]DB, you were pretty suspicious of that weather guy the other day, though, calling him a KMT troll. We’ve all done it. Maybe there’s just something about Internet forums that makes us tend to behave in a different way than we would normally.

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Stray Dog is right in pointing out that you don’t want enforced sterility, and that there should be room for humor. That doesn’t mean I like the tone of the thread, though. Assuming the worst of a person, especially a newbie, instead of granting the benefit of the doubt and being welcoming to them, is likely to drive people away, and I think that’s highly detrimental to the site. One can be suspicious of scams and yet polite to a person in case they are not in fact a scammer.[/quote]

It may not polite, but in England, where sandman and I both come from, it’s friendly to joke with new people. We call it banter.

I hope I can say this without offending anyone (else), but American’s don’t get our sense of humour. Maybe Forumosa could offer some kind of guidance in that regard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_humour

Maybe give classes to any Americans who are thinking about wanting to join our community? So they can go from this :cry: or this :fume: to this :roflmao: . If we taught the Scots to have a sense of humour, let’s face it, we can teach anyone.

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Oh, the guy who, while emotions were running high about the flooding disaster, was feeding us the KMT apologetics to take the heat off of Ma Yingjiu’s ineptitude? It’s all the CWB’s fault? Ma hasn’t asked for foreign assistance [color=#BF0000]out of fear foreign companies will buy up all of Taiwan’s beachfront property? [/color]:loco: Well, if you post SHEER INANITY, especially on a sensitive topic, you should expect some appropriate responses. Could I have been nicer and should I have been less personal about it? Sure. I would have respected the mod’s decision had he or she temped that. :idunno:

I thought Stray Dog’s initial response was funny, and appropriate to the thread. I get the ‘banter’ bit. The OP should have taken that with a sense of humor, IMO. As has been mentioned, threads tend to spin out of control when both sides respond with negativity.

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[quote=“Dragonbones”][quote=“joesax”][/quote]DB, you were pretty suspicious of that weather guy the other day, though, calling him a KMT troll. We’ve all done it. Maybe there’s just something about Internet forums that makes us tend to behave in a different way than we would normally.

Oh, the guy who, while emotions were running high about the flooding disaster, was feeding us the KMT apologetics to take the heat off of Ma Yingjiu’s ineptitude? It’s all the CWB’s fault? Ma hasn’t asked for foreign assistance [color=#BF0000]out of fear foreign companies will buy up all of Taiwan’s beachfront property? [/color]:loco: Well, if you post SHEER INANITY, especially on a sensitive topic, you should expect some appropriate responses. Could I have been nicer and should I have been less personal about it? Sure. I would have respected the mod’s decision had he or she temped that. :idunno: [/quote]Quite a few people read that guy’s posts a different way. But I think there were a couple of things he said that could have been worded better and that really set you off on that path of thinking he was posting from a political standpoint. Maybe he was, but it didn’t seem that way to me. Anyway, never mind. I just wanted to point out that we all have a tendency to jump to conclusions, or to make jokes that may not be taken by others as jokes.

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Hey Gus,

Perhaps that’s the problem. If you read the forums more, you’d easily notice that EVERY TIME a newbie has a difficult time, the same posters are seen pilling up. EVERY TIME. In fact, if you look at the threads that were brought to your attention by the Bear and Funk, as well as the thread you had in mind when starting this discussion, it’s all the same posters.

I don’t think there is an “in club” per se. But there definitely are some people who will back up one another, not based on what is said, but on who says it.

To make matters worse, some people post way too much. As an example, buttercup had 12 posts on August 13 followed with 34 posts on August 14. That’s right! 34 posts in one day!

We’re talking 50 posts in two days, here, Gus. Admittedly, I am not a fan of buttercup, but that’s not the issue. The issue is simply that posting that much shouldn’t be allowed because you end up with the same posters in EVERY threads, and often times, these threads are like the ones linked above by you, the Bear and Funk. And THAT is what gives some posters, especially newbies, the impression that the site has an “in club.”

Coincidently, sandman had 24 posts yesterday. It’s too much. We’re looking at nearly 100 posts in two days… From 2 posters. That’s a problem, Gus.

Get these people under control. Perhaps have the moderators moderate instead of over posting. This site is your site and it’s your job to administer it how you see fit. I’m only answering your question and pointing things out to you which I feel contribute greatly to making the site unwelcoming. It’s up to you if you want to let the site run like this or make changes accordingly.

Sincerely,

Chris

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[quote=“Stray Dog”]I agree with jimi; how sterile do you want the site to be? For me, the humour in many of the posts is what I like about Forumosa, even though most of the funniest bits are mine.

If this were a pub (I have experience running pubs), I would ask the regular patrons to remember that new customers may not understand the in-jokes and tone, and would step in to guide the conversation so that the newcomer can appreciate that he has walked into a bar with gritty character and shouldn’t get too offended.

I’d then probably jokingly put down the jokers who spoke up when the new guy walked in and let everyone now feel they’re on the same level, and then wait to be the butt of someone else’s joke. I’d do this as I was also getting the new customer what he needs.

If, however, the person walking in seemed to be trying some kind of scam (we saw a lot of these characters in the pub business, and some were so clever that we had no idea we’d been had over until long after the event), then I would be more questioning, but ready to welcome the guy should he turn out to be harmless. A good way to break the ice with someone who at first glance appears to be a scammer is to jokingly call him on it and see how he responds. At the very least he’ll know not to try that scam.

I would also make sure the new guy doesn’t respond in a way that might cause matters to escalate into a serious argument, as the poster did in the the thread posted by the bear. He wasn’t scared off, as some seem to be suggesting; he chose to stand and make a fight of it. Also, if you look, for a newcomer, he just walked in, without introduction, and started asking questions without realising that he might offend. In the ruten thread, the new guy responded to the jokes with a direct insult.

Now, I’m not condoning badgering and bullying of newbies - far from it. I’m saying that you need to take a step back and see the situation for what it really is and then step in to take it where you want it to go. As when I’m training people to fix their dog’s issues - and in fact with anything in life - I suggest asking yourself how you yourself are responsible for whatever unwanted event happened. I guess that’s what this thread is for.

I don’t want to see this place turn into one of those quiet pubs filled with old people quietly sipping away on their half a bitter or glass of sherry while the real characters have moved somewhere else because no one took the lead to control their humour and reactions. You are the host; you are responsible for the mood of the place.

So, if you want to ensure that matters don’t get out of hand and newcomers don’t feel offended by the humour that prevails on Forumosa, you need to take better control. That is, you need to have ‘hosts’ who are better able to bring the conversation about so that everyone feels they have common ground, understanding, and a desire to make acquaintance with those they are meeting. You need to host more than just the website.[/quote]
Stray Dog’s thoughts mirror mine pretty much exactly. It’s definitely a balance, and sometimes the balance gets skewed too much to one side. Fortunately, there are checks and balances, and we can self-correct.

Stray Dog’s comments about being a good host strike a chord with me as well. Forumosa’s “hosts” are admin, moderators, and the regular posters. It’s good for all of us to reflect on what kind of messages we’re sending out, spoken and unspoken.