That it’s inconvenient.
As is having the morality police break in when you’re between the sheets with your lover, then held incommunicado for 12 hours afterward. When the only options you’re given are sit tight, hold on, and hope to get out of it, or phone your father and drag your family and hers through the mud.
What would you expect reasonable people to think?
Bereal -
No…its a fact of life for those inclined to be followers of Mohammad.
I suggest you do some study on female genital mutilation and “honor killing” and get back to us.
This situation is, very unfortunately, far from being isolated or uncommon.[/quote]
I guess the same thing could be said about “followers of Christ” and connections to gangs, business corruption, etc.
The Bible condones honor killings but most, if not all Christians do not do this. The Bible does not condone murder, extortion, or greed, yet there are plenty of “Christians” who do this. Some of the most violent countries in the world are ones where Christians are in the majority. By the way, female genital mutilation comes from the traditions of the converted, not Islam. Tribes were doing this long before Muslims came along.
Not all Christians are the same nor do the wrongs of some mean all Christians are equally guilty. This holds true for Muslims.
Surely you’re not attempting to paint 1.57 billion people with the same brush, are you?
What’s the difference between an honor killing and a public lynching? Only 50 years.
White Christians were bombing churches, raping women, and killing innocent people with no rebuke from the law and vocal and silent accolades from other whites not even 50 years ago in the US. White women were killed if they were thought to have been involved with a black man. And of course, women were not much more than property only 100 years ago.
When you point a finger at someone, three more point back at you.
[quote=“Jaboney”]
As is having the morality police break in when you’re between the sheets with your lover, then held incommunicado for 12 hours afterward. [/quote]
You’re implying that strong arm tactics are used not just in countries with extreme Shari’a law such as in Saudi Arabia? That’s maybe true, but I have a lot more trust in the judiciary to overturn such actions in Western countries. Law enforcement might be over zealous on occassions, but usually there are avenues to complain and seek redress. In Saudi Arabia, the courts are usually enforcers of such idiocy. Only chance is to get a liberal Royal on your side for clemency and most don’t have those kind of connections.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]What’s the difference between an honor killing and a public lynching? Only 50 years.
White Christians were bombing churches, raping women, and killing innocent people with no rebuke from the law and vocal and silent accolades from other whites not even 50 years ago in the US. White women were killed if they were thought to have been involved with a black man. And of course, women were not much more than property only 100 years ago.
When you point a finger at someone, three more point back at you.[/quote]
Were lynchings that common in the Western world? No, unlike the practices above which are quite common in most places in the Muslim world. Have the regions in the West that used to partake in such violence progressed? Yes, so far, in fact, they are now more progressive in race relations than most other parts of the country.
Which backs up my point exactly. Whether it was the renaissance in the 16 Century or the Civil Rights Movement, Western culture has gone through many periods of cultural advancement where society at large changed. I don’t see this happening in Muslim cultures in nearly the same extent. I’ll give the Muslims Southern Spain and parts of Southern Italy during the Middle Ages. In all cases, these were cultures with large, non-Muslim minorities. Along with Jewish culture, they helped preserve Greek texts. I’ll give them Turkey in contemporary times, but these days that’s a Kemalist minority that’s not in power.
Other than these examples? Few and far betwen IMHO. Region is still mired in medieval thought with most government structures and social mores reiterating the nasty status quo.
The big difference is who is doing the protesting. People that were striving for social change in the 60s in the Western World are now some of the biggest apologists for these medieval practices just because these counterculture people that never grew up would rather criticize the US at any cost.
Hardly a convincing argument.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]What’s the difference between an honor killing and a public lynching? Only 50 years.
White Christians were bombing churches, raping women, and killing innocent people with no rebuke from the law and vocal and silent accolades from other whites not even 50 years ago in the US. White women were killed if they were thought to have been involved with a black man. And of course, women were not much more than property only 100 years ago.
When you point a finger at someone, three more point back at you.[/quote]
Good point Imaniou, who are we to judge given Western Culture’s soiled history. Screw the blasphemous bitch, hopefully the authorities can detain her long enough for a mob to come along and burn her at the stake. I guess you really can justify anything if you are willing to use the lowest common denominator of human history to do so.
[quote=“ImaniOU”]What’s the difference between an honor killing and a public lynching? Only 50 years.
White Christians were bombing churches, raping women, and killing innocent people with no rebuke from the law and vocal and silent accolades from other whites not even 50 years ago in the US. White women were killed if they were thought to have been involved with a black man. And of course, women were not much more than property only 100 years ago.
When you point a finger at someone, three more point back at you.[/quote]
you are pretty much in line with this:
[quote=“Deuce Dropper”]
how much of this is related to the fact that the West has advanced so much in the last fifty years that other places who believe in all this hooey and apple sauce now look like a bunch of 15th Century heathens?[/quote]
You aren’t serious about using this as a comparison are you? In North America, such compounds are very, very rare and usually are closed by law enforcement albeit sometimes with tragic circumstances. However, I would argue that women being mistreated is the norm in Islamic countries. When women can’t drive (I wonder what Jaboney’s Saudi friends think about that), get threatened with stoning for appearing in magazines (Indonesia), are forced to wear black hijabs or burkhas in stifling heat (most countries in Middle East), are forced to have their genitals mutilated (African Muslim countries)and allow men to have multiple wives with little protection for the wife (Malaysia), I’d say the cases of abuse are more the norm than isolated.
And sure, parts of the Catholic church have a lot to answer for with the recent sex scandals. There is a huge difference though. Most Catholics are quite vocal in their disgust and have the guts to vocalize their disgust. In most Muslim countries, as referenced in the article above, most politicians are too reliant on votes to condemn such actions, and most so-called moderates remain silent as to not rile up the large sections of people that aren’t moderates.[/quote]
Again, I am not saying the plight of women in the muslim communtiy is not horrible, i am just saying, demons are everywhere…have you read House Cats’ posts, where little girls get sold for crack and boys for pennies??? What do you think is done to those children??? And that’s not rare, prostitution and its repercussions are not rare, wife beating neither. Women are bashed in and abused as rampantly in the west as in Muslim culture. You hear of it less, coz you get desensitized to the crimes in your own backyard. And the 40 year old white lady with a broken nose and black eye showing up at a school soccer game does not generate news. Only Rihanna does!
Do you know how MOST of the women are respected in Muslim communities?? They wear a hijab, yes, sometimes not, but, if they are not in abject poverty they are doctors, engineers, yada yada yada. The Bollywood film industry is teeming with hot sizzling muslim girls!!
Polygamy compounds may be rare, so are terrorist training grounds. But they exist and cause much evil.
Hold on! Are you saying that these kinds of murders are tolerated in the West? That the newspapers don’t pick up the stories? That the perpetrators, if caught, don’t face judicial proceedings? What nonsense! They’re classed as murder, pure and simple. Not “honour killing.” Both the men charged in the Harry Potter actress kid are (I believe – could be wrong) in custody, charged with plotting a murder. Hardly “tolerance.” 
The problem I have with honor killings is that they are a sign that Muslims aren’t assimilating well into Western culture. It’s that they are committing honor killings in Europe, Canada, and the US.
If they want to live in the freedom of the West, they have to extend that freedom to their womenfolk, too.
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]The problem I have with honor killings is that they are a sign that Muslims aren’t assimilating well into Western culture. It’s that they are committing honor killings in Europe, Canada, and the US.
If they want to live in the freedom of the West, they have to extend that freedom to their womenfolk, too.[/quote]
yea, why can’t they be like good immigrants… like Asians.
[quote=“Jack Burton”][quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]The problem I have with honor killings is that they are a sign that Muslims aren’t assimilating well into Western culture. It’s that they are committing honor killings in Europe, Canada, and the US.
If they want to live in the freedom of the West, they have to extend that freedom to their womenfolk, too.[/quote]
yea, why can’t they be like good immigrants… like Asians.[/quote]
They ARE Asians.
Hold on! Are you saying that these kinds of murders are tolerated in the West? That the newspapers don’t pick up the stories? That the perpetrators, if caught, don’t face judicial proceedings? What nonsense! They’re classed as murder, pure and simple. Not “honour killing.” Both the men charged in the Harry Potter actress kid are (I believe – could be wrong) in custody, charged with plotting a murder. Hardly “tolerance.” [/quote]
I think you misread
Hold on! Are you saying that these kinds of murders are tolerated in the West? That the newspapers don’t pick up the stories? That the perpetrators, if caught, don’t face judicial proceedings? What nonsense! They’re classed as murder, pure and simple. Not “honour killing.” Both the men charged in the Harry Potter actress kid are (I believe – could be wrong) in custody, charged with plotting a murder. Hardly “tolerance.” [/quote]
I think you misread[/quote]
I disagree. I think you didn’t make your point clearly enough. There are MANY environments where this kind of behaviour is not tolerated, which is why these stories get in the papers. Which is why these people are facing prosecution.
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]The problem I have with honor killings is that they are a sign that Muslims aren’t assimilating well into Western culture. It’s that they are committing honor killings in Europe, Canada, and the US.
If they want to live in the freedom of the West, they have to extend that freedom to their womenfolk, too.[/quote]
There are two cases of honor killings that I am aware of in B.C. Niether were by muslims. One was hindu and one was a caste issue. ALL RELIGION IS BAT SIHT.
Here’s a news story to warm Imaniou’s heart:
cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/07/ … rue&hpt=T2
Damn western human rights organisiations getting in the way of justice again. Don’t they know their own soiled history justifies this stuff.
Bullshit with the moral equivalency argument. Did you see Mother Theresa or the Pope issue fatwas against authors and cartoonists. Do you see minority Christian populations engaging in family honour killings? Making women second class citizens and mutilating their body parts? [/quote]
Chewy, try Google. Modern minority christian communities in honor/shame cultures also engage in honor killings, though with less prevalence than in Islamic cultures. Honor killings were sanctioned in western Christian legal codes into the 19th century. In fact until 1970 Texas, Georgia, Utah, and New Mexico considered adultery legal grounds for murder.
Such behaviors are human, not Islamic. Hindu and Sikh culture also engage in honor killings, the former in celebrated cases in which caste boundaries are violated by a relationship. In some areas of India honor killings account for 10% of all killings, I’ve heard. Christians do it too; we just refuse to see and label properly. But killings of women for violating socio-sexual boundaries such as out of wedlock pregnancies or adultery in western honor/shame cultures, especially those originating around the Med Basin – are relatively common.
See this U of Cal paper:
escholarship.org/uc/item/401407hg
We both have the same assessment of Sharia. Incompatible with a democratic state. “Moderate” Islam is mostly a matter of good manners and easygoing tolerance, like the Muslims I lived among in Kenya. They didn’t believe differently than their cobelievers, they just didn’t regard it with any great strictness. I don’t consider any religion that dreams of instantiating itself in every human mind to be “moderate.”
Now if you want something really sick, from the Wiki page:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
“Over 80 Iraqi women in Diyala province committed suicide, to escape the shame of having been raped. They chose to become suicide bombers to escape the shame; their rapes were planned in advance by 51-year-old Iraqi woman Samira Jassim, who confessed to Iraqi police that she organized their rapes so she could later persuade each of them to become a suicide bomber to escape their shame.[11][12] [13]”
The western media’s “shock” at honor killings among Muslims is an example of the classic “scapegoating” of the Other for our own crimes.
[quote=“Vorkosigan”]Now if you want something really sick, from the Wiki page:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
“Over 80 Iraqi women in Diyala province committed suicide, to escape the shame of having been raped. They chose to become suicide bombers to escape the shame; their rapes were planned in advance by 51-year-old Iraqi woman Samira Jassim, who confessed to Iraqi police that she organized their rapes so she could later persuade each of them to become a suicide bomber to escape their shame.[11][12] [13]”
The western media’s “shock” at honor killings among Muslims is an example of the classic “scapegoating” of the Other for our own crimes.[/quote]
What do you mean “our own crimes”
Crimes against women, ranging from making women pay for their own rape kits to banning abortion to the cultural codes that call for men to kill their wives when they commit adultery. Chewy’s post in which he claimed Christians didn’t do that was a good example of how that works in practice: the Other does whatever it is we consider bad.