I hate this country, and I can't wait to leave!

Discussion Open Forum
21

To a degree you are right, but you must know that it is the geriatrics who mostly keep the streets and parks as clean as they are. Muzha is clean along the river and through the uni because old hikers go through the area every day.

The other problem is that Taipei will improve but not the countryside as the level of education out there is very low. Just go out to Taipei County any weekend and the garbage tossers are mostly young families.

What will happen though is that a tipping point will be reached at some point in the next 10 years. The problem now is that there is so much that must be ignored that it is hard to know where to start. People don’t like their old run down buildings but what can they do? No one wants to take the first step. Many are just waiting till the buildings get too old and then they plan to tear them down and rebuild. That’s what my neighbors want. Until then they can’t be bothered to repaint the stairway or fix up the outside.

Many many people desperately want a better Taiwan but don’t know where to put their energy. When some direction is given there will be a lot of positive change to this place. Just look at the fish conservation programs set up by the EPA. They wanted to monitor rivers to help restock the fish populations. They had no problems getting hundreds and hundreds of volunteers around the island to help patrol rivers.

As john said, two steps forward, one back.

22

[quote=“Highway Star”]This is a generalized statement,and feel free to agree/disagree as you choose but I think that as soon as the over 45 generation hurry up and die, the place will be much better off. :wink: Most of the irritating factors that are discussed within my network of friends mostly point this way, others can disagree but this is how we see it.
IMO, the under 35/40 generation are generally a lot more savvy in terms of social behaviour and common courtesy as they are well travelled and have had exposure to International education and culture. They understand the rules of social interaction better, as they see it among their peer group whereas the older folk tend to be less informed what is publicly acceptable or not.
Of course there are exceptions, and I know a great many older locals who are ashamed of their own for the same reasons.
Leaving trash at a beautiful riverside bbq, lack of manners, disregard for safety on the road, pushing, shoving…most of us that have been here for a while have been pissed off by this and I for one have certainly had my share of bad days when I let the other guy know that he’s in the wrong, but it passes and you somehow develop a tolerance for it over time and it doesn’t bother you as much
Things are changing slowly, but it will take another generation or two for things to be a shadow of what we are used to in our respective home countries. Talk about it, get it out of your system, punch somebody in the face (kidding), but don’t let it detract from the positives that Taiwan has, for there are many things outside the walls of Taipei that you may never see back home!
Andmost of al, don’t let it affect you- stay happy![/quote]

I lived in Taipei for 4 years and before leaving I would have agreed with you as far as "the next generation being different.

Down here in Jiayi it’s the young men who are the “trash”. No manners. Entitlement. Never seen or even heard of the rest of the world.

23

[quote=“Highway Star”]This is a generalized statement,and feel free to agree/disagree as you choose but I think that as soon as the over 45 generation hurry up and die, the place will be much better off. :wink: Most of the irritating factors that are discussed within my network of friends mostly point this way, others can disagree but this is how we see it.
IMO, the under 35/40 generation are generally a lot more savvy in terms of social behaviour and common courtesy as they are well travelled and have had exposure to International education and culture. They understand the rules of social interaction better, as they see it among their peer group whereas the older folk tend to be less informed what is publicly acceptable or not.[/quote]

Thanks for letting us know (twice!) that we are free to agree or not cuz otherwise I dunno, like, I jus dunno, you know?

24

I think we should all be entitled to our explosion of frustration every once in a while, especially someone like Sherry who seems to be working so hard to make positive changes in her community. Sometimes that one step backwards lands right on the most sensitive part of our foot. It’s okay to howl in rage.

I just finished reading The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. I have to say, as I read it, I kept thinking of all the ugliness in Taiwan and trying to think of what it would take to tip it into a drastically positive change where people would take pride in where they lived and take care of their home. Of what point would it take for people here to become more tolerant of those who don’t fit into a cookie cutter pattern of being skinny, light-skinned, and Taiwanese. Of what would make people start obeying the law and the police begin enforcing it. Of what would ensure that the quality of English teaching reached the same standards one would see in the likes of Europe or the Middle East.

I don’t have any simple answers (probably why I’m an English teacher and not a social epidemiologist), but I hope they tip sometime soon.

25

[quote=“Muzha Man”]As john said, two steps forward, one back.[/quote]Yep. And that can be quite frustrating and discouraging sometimes. Some days are good, others… Not as good…

26

No wonder she has some bad days. Not much privacy to release some stress.

27

I don’t know if I hate this country… BUt I do know that lately I’ve had a real serious need to get out of it and go back to the States. There’s this strange need I’ve been having lately to see a variety of people and interact with them. Also the normal, being around people who can relate to you. Also, I’ve been dying for some real Mexican food. Damn I wanna go home.

28

If Taiwan had an efficient garbage collection system it would have a bigger unemployment problem. There are no garbage bins because there are street sweepers. You are obliged to just throw it out the window to ensure another’s livelihood.

There is a lot of traffic congestion because there are so many taxis. At peak hour they stretch for miles in front of you. Sometimes it’s a sea of yellow. Taxi driving is a form of social security in Taiwan. Take one they’re cheap and give a guy a break. The more congestion there is the more he makes.

If there weren’t so many old sofas and livingroom chairs in your local park then the resting street sweepers would have to sit on rocks or the ground. Drop off you old settee at the park. Do the decent thing.

If large dogs weren’t kept in bird cages there would be no room to keep large dogs and your children would suffer by not being exposed to other life forms. Keep a large dog in a box for education purposes. It’s civilized.

Common Sherryl get with the program.

29

[quote=“Muzha Man”][quote=“Sherryx”]Sorry if I rant, but this Taiwanese behaviour around animals makes me sick. What do they teach the children in their schools? Don’t they teach them any social behaviour? I mean, I’m even talking about road safety for example. I often see groups of students on their bicycles or scooters driving side-by-side talking, oblivious to all the traffic around them. Or people crossing the streets, just expecting that all the cars would stop for them. How about the look-left-right-left again thing?
And then there’s the thing about garbage. They take their food with them to the park or beach or wherever and never throw it away or take it home with them. No, let’s just leave it here. We don’t love our country. Our country can look like a giant trash-can, it doesn’t matter.

I hate this country, and I can’t wait to leave!!![/quote]

Bye bye.[/quote]

:unamused: Yes, the Chinese are so incredibly kind to each other, treat animals well, have the utmost respect for the envrioment, and are amongst the most considerate on earth…

30

[quote=“bob”][quote=“Highway Star”]This is a generalized statement,and feel free to agree/disagree as you choose but I think that as soon as the over 45 generation hurry up and die, the place will be much better off. :wink: Most of the irritating factors that are discussed within my network of friends mostly point this way, others can disagree but this is how we see it.
IMO, the under 35/40 generation are generally a lot more savvy in terms of social behaviour and common courtesy as they are well travelled and have had exposure to International education and culture. They understand the rules of social interaction better, as they see it among their peer group whereas the older folk tend to be less informed what is publicly acceptable or not.[/quote]

Thanks for letting us know (twice!) that we are free to agree or not cuz otherwise I dunno, like, I jus dunno, you know?[/quote]

by102fd.bay102.hotmail.msn.com/c … 00824384cf

31

Please ignore the link above. It doesn’t work.

32

[quote=“Muzha Man”]To a degree you are right, but you must know that it is the geriatrics who mostly keep the streets and parks as clean as they are. Muzha is clean along the river and through the uni because old hikers go through the area every day.

The other problem is that Taipei will improve but not the countryside as the level of education out there is very low. Just go out to Taipei County any weekend and the garbage tossers are mostly young families.

What will happen though is that a tipping point will be reached at some point in the next 10 years. The problem now is that there is so much that must be ignored that it is hard to know where to start. People don’t like their old run down buildings but what can they do? No one wants to take the first step. Many are just waiting till the buildings get too old and then they plan to tear them down and rebuild. That’s what my neighbors want. Until then they can’t be bothered to repaint the stairway or fix up the outside.

Many many people desperately want a better Taiwan but don’t know where to put their energy. When some direction is given there will be a lot of positive change to this place. Just look at the fish conservation programs set up by the EPA. They wanted to monitor rivers to help restock the fish populations. They had no problems getting hundreds and hundreds of volunteers around the island to help patrol rivers.

As john said, two steps forward, one back.[/quote]

Next ten years? I seriously doubt it. I live in that countryside, and maybe a hundred. The fact is that there are far too many people interested in trashing Taiwan, getting rich, and then leaving (Chinese, I mean). Some if the stupidity I see is simply appaling (like Chunan city banning dumpsters…in '89 trash was piled in an alley, wonderfully fragrant festering piles of swill…dumpsters, entering the modern age…BUT, they are now illegal).

I was told by a Chinese guy something in 1989: “We Chinese CAN build the most beautiful things in the world, more beautiful than any other culture. And within 10-20 years, they will fall down because we don’t like to maintain anything.” So true. I remember when Sunrise opened in Hsinchu back in 1990. Where is it now? I seriously give Taipei 101 20 years before its basically an indoor night market.

When you put a 14th century culture in 20th-21st century structures don’cha know :wink:. Take a look at the streets, and in your mind replace the designer knock offs with traditional clothing. Replace the scooters with oxes, and the BBBs (Blue Betelnut Bus) with ox carts, replace the modern structures with traditional ones…and just watch. Create a 14th-16th century image, and suddenly it all makes sense.

One of the costs of isolation, a culture stagnates.

10 years? No way in hell :slight_smile:.

33

It’s almost Christmas. Walking in a shitty foreign land.

34

You can throw the garbage right behind you
And pretend that someone picks it up
If you just can’t beat 'em, you can join them
Or spit your bettle nut into a cup

35

[quote=“j99l88e77”]You can throw the garbage right behind you
And pretend that someone picks it up
If you just can’t beat 'em, you can join them
Or spit your bettle nut into a cup[/quote]

Why spit it in a cup when there is a perfectly good scooter seat next to you :noway: .

36

Spitting should be a national sport in Taiwan and Korea. Maybe next Olympics.

37

Either that or they could start using the blind guys that direct traffic coming out of RT Mart parking to go around cleaning off scooter seats :smiley:.

38

[quote=“Highway Star”]… as soon as the over 45 generation hurry up and die, the place will be much better off. :wink: Most of the irritating factors that are discussed within my network of friends mostly point this way, others can disagree but this is how we see it.
IMO, the under 35/40 generation are generally a lot more savvy in terms of social behaviour and common courtesy as they are well travelled and have had exposure to International education and culture.[/quote]Not where I live mate. The over-45s around here are doing a damn good job of teaching their kids to cheat the system, drive/park like asshats, litter and make as much noise as possible. The LCD (lowest common denominator) always seems to win out in the end.
The under 35 crowd that my wife knows think she’s some kind of freak since she doesn’t:

Toss trash around
Screech loudly in public
Make noises while eating
Park wherever she feels like
Cover herself from head to foot trying to be white
Care only about money and face
etc etc.

I keep telling her she needs new friends, but these are the people she grew up with. All of them have been overseas, but nothing seems to have sunk in beyond the price of LV’s crap in whichever place they visited. They don’t exactly fill me with hope. :idunno:

39

[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Highway Star”]… as soon as the over 45 generation hurry up and die, the place will be much better off. :wink: Most of the irritating factors that are discussed within my network of friends mostly point this way, others can disagree but this is how we see it.
IMO, the under 35/40 generation are generally a lot more savvy in terms of social behaviour and common courtesy as they are well travelled and have had exposure to International education and culture.[/quote]Not where I live mate. The over-45s around here are doing a damn good job of teaching their kids to cheat the system, drive/park like asshats, litter and make as much noise as possible. The LCD (lowest common denominator) always seems to win out in the end.
The under 35 crowd that my wife knows think she’s some kind of freak since she doesn’t:

Toss trash around
Screech loudly in public
Make noises while eating
Park wherever she feels like
Cover herself from head to foot trying to be white
Care only about money and face
etc etc.

I keep telling her she needs new friends, but these are the people she grew up with. All of them have been overseas, but nothing seems to have sunk in beyond the price of LV’s crap in whichever place they visited. They don’t exactly fill me with hope. :idunno:[/quote]

They fill me with hope. Remember, these people don’t set trends, they pick them up. Like I said, when the tipping point happens all these slugs will become better citizens because it will then be the only acceptable way to behave. Behaving civilly will be the new way to maintain face.

As for talking loudly, well, I never see that going away. It’s just the style here at least for those from a real Taiwanese background (my waishengren friends can’t stand it either). No different from most Latin American countries. Parking? Go to Quebec. Double parking is the rule. Eating loudly. It’s vulgar but we perfected talking with your mouth open in the last generation back in North America so don’t get on your high horse complaining about it here. Caring about money and looks? Oh no, we have so little of that back home it’s almost not worth mentioning.

Taiwan’s significant problems are trash, pollution, and awareness of others. All three are improving year by year though the latter will likely never reach a level that can satisfy westerners. In fact, it will likely get worse to some degree as it is more a product of the culture liberalizing than tradition.

And always remember, there’s a difference between wanting taiwan to be a civil place and wanting it to be another WASP holdout.

40

I hated it! The people there were extremely superficial, materialistic, and self-centered. They never cared to ask how anyone else was – a conversation was about telling others about themselves. The time they weren’t complaining about how the world should work, they were downing three-dollar lattes and thousand-calorie hamburgers. They had huge houses, multiple cars, washing machines, expensive jewelry, little fluffy pink inbred dogs and yet complained incessantly about how bad everything was. They individually drove RVs and converted military vehicles and developed unusable mass-transit systems and yet complained about a 5/100 dollar increase in the price of gas. They were fascists in their opinions, highly prejudice to anyone who didn’t agree %1000 with their views, ostracizing anyone who admitted to agreeing with something done by The Other political party. Their relationships were a joke, a brief joke. The women were overly idealistic and only dated aggressive muscle-heads and then were surprised when they got cheated on. The guys were completely oblivious on how to maintain a relationship and so maintained long-term relationships with porn videos. The way their families existed really scared me. The children were treated like jetsam, to be gotten rid of after a certain age, and spending time with family was thought to be a choir. They had no concept of hospitality or patience or humility. Letting a stranger stay in their home was insane. Waiting in a grocery store line for more than 30 seconds justified berating the clerk. And doing someone a favor was considered an inconvenience. It was a dreadful place. I’m glad I left California.