[quote]Taiwan’s significant problems are trash, pollution, and awareness of others. All three are improving year by year though the latter will likely never reach a level that can satisfy westerners. In fact, it will likely get worse to some degree as it is more a product of the culture liberalizing than tradition.
And always remember, there’s a difference between wanting taiwan to be a civil place and wanting it to be another WASP holdout.[/quote]
Totally agree. What’s more, I actually like the jubilant din of a gathering of Taiwanese chowing down. Seeing a boring bunch of office workers suddenly become animated, if only during lunch time. It’s positive energy.
[quote=“Muzha Man”]Eating loudly. It’s vulgar but we perfected talking with your mouth open in the last generation back in North America so don’t get on your high horse complaining about it here.[/quote]I never said I thought North America was a civilized place.
[quote=“Muzha Man”]And always remember, there’s a difference between wanting taiwan to be a civil place and wanting it to be another WASP holdout.[/quote]That’s not what I meant, so don’t be putting words in my mouth.
I agree with you about tilting points. It does seem that if you can get 20% of the local population to do/wear/buy something there is enough sheep factor in the rest that the number will almost immediately jump to 80%. I do think though that bad habits are taken up much more readily than good habits. No, I’m not at all starry-eyed about the West on this point, so don’t bother with that red herring. I wish I shared your optimism, and I hope it’s justified. Sadly, very little that I’ve seen in 20 years here suggests your optimism is warranted. The majority of Taiwanese that I have met who have espoused similar ideas about what consititutes a civil society have for the most part emigrated.
[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“Muzha Man”]Eating loudly. It’s vulgar but we perfected talking with your mouth open in the last generation back in North America so don’t get on your high horse complaining about it here.[/quote]I never said I thought North America was a civilized place.
Not putting words in your mouth. Just thought it was a good way to frame the debate. Anyway, sorry if my words were offensive.
Not a red herring at all, but a very useful thing to remind people every now and then. As my father likes to remind me, Canada was a lot like this 40 years ago.
Many long term expats I know have not really gotten out in years to really see the changes to the place. Many of them will still tell you to watch for cultural traits that apply only to grandmothers in the south. I’m not saying that this is you, but my optimism is partly because I have left twice for a year and come back to see big changes each time. For example the average taipei person is no where near as concerned about brand name fashions as even five years ago. As a result stores can’t make it here, and are moving to nouveau riche Taichung (if not Beijing). I work with lots of people in their twenties and many of them consider themselves dropouts. They don’t have any ambition but just want to live their life. Met lots of people like that down in Kenting too.
Here’s something to consider. Look at how clean the average guy keeps his car. Immaculate. But you see guys polishing their cars beside apartment blocks that haven’t been washed or painted in 20 years. It’s not that people don’t care here, but so much is pointless to care about. Yeah sometimes they dump trash on the road so it doesn’t dirty their car, but in a way that is promising as all you need to do it make the person believe that the environment as a whole is part of his life and he will treat it as kindly as his car. It may take years, but it is a natural evolution. We are not reforming welfare victims here but middle class people.
In the long run, Taiwan will improve. But in the long run, we’re all dead.
[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Many long term expats I know have not really gotten out in years to really see the changes to the place. Many of them will still tell you to watch for cultural traits that apply only to grandmothers in the south. I’m not saying that this is you, but my optimism is partly because I have left twice for a year and come back to see big changes each time. For example the average Taipei person is no where near as concerned about brand name fashions as even five years ago. As a result stores can’t make it here, and are moving to nouveau riche Taichung (if not Beijing). I work with lots of people in their twenties and many of them consider themselves dropouts. They don’t have any ambition but just want to live their life. Met lots of people like that down in Kending too.
[/quote]Sure, I’ve met these sort of dropout types and they are very cool and all… but do they represent a trend? I don’t think so.
[quote]
Here’s something to consider. Look at how clean the average guy keeps his car. Immaculate. But you see guys polishing their cars beside apartment blocks that haven’t been washed or painted in 20 years. It’s not that people don’t care here, but so much is pointless to care about. Yeah sometimes they dump trash on the road so it doesn’t dirty their car, but in a way that is promising as all you need to do it make the person believe that the environment as a whole is part of his life and he will treat it as kindly as his car. It may take years, but it is a natural evolution. We are not reforming welfare victims here but middle class people.
[/quote]Sorry, but I don’t buy this argument. I know a bunch of people who live in crappy old brick hovels and are basically broke but have a new Mercedes. Why is that? I think it’s due to the fact that everywhere you go people will see your car and (so the thinking goes) they will admire and respect you for it. How many people will ever see your home?
Before you start again with the Taiwan vs. US comparisons, I am aware of the ‘hood rich’ phenomenon.
The tossing of garbage from cars just underlines (to me) the idea people have that they are separate from the world they live in. They still insist on the existence of a place called ‘away’ (as in “throw it away”). It’s not just the car thing either. I’ve met hundreds if not thousands of people who show up at any appointment immaculately dressed and manicured, but live in filth.
I’m now going to reveal just how deep my streak of pessimism runs. I believe that in the long run Taiwan will be overrun with Chinese (inevitable outcome of either status quo or unification) and they will quickly bring Taiwan down to their level. I don’t think the majority of Taiwanese will resist much, if at all. I honestly think the majority either revel in mess, filth and chaos or are simply too apathetic to do anything about it. Just my opinion of course.
[quote=“redwagon”]
I’m now going to reveal just how deep my streak of pessimism runs. I believe that in the long run Taiwan will be overrun with Chinese (inevitable outcome of either status quo or unification) and they will quickly bring Taiwan down to their level. I don’t think the majority of Taiwanese will resist much, if at all. I honestly think the majority either revel in mess, filth and chaos or are simply too apathetic to do anything about it. Just my opinion of course.[/quote]I’m not sure if that’s pessimistic or realistic. I hate to think you are right, but I can’t say you are wrong. It’s entirely speculative and I admit to enjoy reading you guys having a civil conversation about a subject that too often goes to shit on page one of a thread. Well done gents.
What a doll.
