International Politics Forum Feedback (Part 2)

[Closet_Queen]

This is a duplicate of my response to the moderator, Tigerman, in the political forum. The title explains my complaint. I post here at the request of Maoman.

@tigerman

You must be joking… are you?

Not at all.

@tigerman

Disappear 1 cease to be visible 2 cease to exist or be in circulation or use… The American Century Dictionary…

Ample proof of Republic semantic parsing and issue shifting. The issue is with their being removed without consulting the authors. No definitions are needed. Two posters questioned the removal of posts and deserve an explanation.

@tigerman

Have the posts in question 1 ceased being visible or 2 ceased existing or are no longer in circulation or use? No. The posts are visible in a different thread, where they are circulating and in use. Thus, the posts have NOT disappeared.

But where? How will the poster follow it up. We see that Tigerman has begun a new thread called Conservatives vs. Republicans. Did Tigerman invent this title and put the posts in there. Was it the poster

[Bu_Lai_En]

Queeny, that’s what moderators are suppossed to do. Move threads to other forums if more appropriate. Merge threads about the same topic. Split off posts that are off-topic. Reasons for splitting the thread could include the original topic being lost in irrelevant posts, or a new topic being easier to find if given its own thread.

There is some inconsistentcy as moderators largely have free reign in their forums so long as they stick to the basic policy. That means some mods will split and merge threads a lot, and others won’t.

Brian

[Big_Fluffy_Matthew]

[quote]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/quote]And when that moderator moves off topic posts, will you accuse him of being biased too ? This way is better for you then you can say to yourself “He moved them because he disagreed with me, not because I made an off-topic post” You won’t be able to use that excuse anymore if he leans the same way you to. Would you complain if a post disagreeing with you was moved.
You never complained when I moved off topic posts, come to think of it, another moderator complained…

Disclaimer: I have not read the thread in question, and I have no wish to, partly because of the above attitude.

[Closet_Queen]

Let me clarify three points.

Tigerman only informed the posters that he had moved their posts after they asked where the posts were. We must presume he would not have done so unless they raised this question. My point is that the moderator should tell the poster before he/she moves the post.

According to Maoman, moderators are free to move posts at their discretion. However, Tigerman moved the post at the request of another (MT). When specifically asked why he moved them, he said he did so because another poster had requested him to do so. He agreed with their request and the post was moved. Further, I don

[Alien]

Quite a while ago, I discussed this point with Maoman. He did say there was someone he thought would pair quite well with the current moderator of IP forum. I wonder if he remembers this conversation.
I wonder if he has given the matter any further consideration or contacted the moderator of IP forum and the possible co-moderator yet.

However, partisanship aside, I can’t say the moderator of the IP forum has actually done anything that any of us other moderators wouldn’t have done ourselves by moving posts and splitting threads without consulting the community or even alerting them. The only problem I see is that the moderator of the IP forum did not direct the community to where this post had been moved to upon questioning. I still have not seen it, and since it was my post in question I would beg the moderator of the IP forum to please produce the link to that post herein.

[Cold_Front]

This is ridiculous. Closet Queen’s case against Tigerman’s removal of posts to another thread – all dressed up in pretty pink, red, and blue font – is a pretense. CQ should be honest enough to come out and say that the only reason he doesn’t want Tigerman as sole IP moderator is because of his politics. Why bullshit around with this bogus claim of deleted posts?

According to two moderators here, neither one of whom agrees with Tigerman’s politics, the IP moderator did absolutely nothing today that he is not entitled to do. So there’s been no abuse. Case closed. End of fucking thread.

I strongly suggest to the moderators that you rally around one of your own, and that you do so no matter what your politics. All of you know Tigerman by his posts here; you know he’s a good and fair man; he also has the toughest thread to moderate. If this kind of bullshit case can be brought against a moderator in order to dilute or remove his or her authority, then you open up a Pandora’s box for everyone. Posters can start threads on the poor qualities of moderators, not based on any real abuse, but simply because they don’t like them.

It would have been entirely different if Closet Queen had started up a thread about having dual IP moderators, where he did not spuriously attack Tigerman’s moderating based on some manufactured issue. But now that he has taken this dishonest route instead, his recommendation should be summarily dismissed.

[Tigerman]

@Alien

However, partisanship aside, I can’t say the moderator of the IP forum has actually done anything that any of us other moderators wouldn’t have done ourselves by moving posts and splitting threads without consulting the community or even alerting them.

That’s absolutely correct. I haven’t done anything that I haven’t seen done here before.

@Alien

The only problem I see is that the moderator of the IP forum did not direct the community to where this post had been moved to upon questioning. I still have not seen it, and since it was my post in question I would beg the moderator of the IP forum to please produce the link to that post herein.

Just because you haven’t seen my direction doesn’t mean that it wasn’t there. You shouldn’t state your limited knowledge of a matter as a [true] fact.

I did in [true] fact direct the community as to where the posts were moved when the inquiries were made.

I don’t know how to link to individual posts… but here is what was posted in chronological order in the subject thread:

[quote]At 3:54 pm on 20 November, the thread initiator posted the following:

@thread initiator

With all due respect Mr. Mod, this discussion has strayed considerably. I believe it veered off track initially when [poster A] said… It seems to me we’ve gotten wrapped up in silly, tangential and irrelevant discussions that take us away from the key points…

At 3:10 pm on 21 November, poster A posted the following:

@poster A

Is it my imagination or do posts seem to be disappearing? When I was previewing I thought I saw a post by Alien.

At 3:10 pm on 21 November, poster B posted the following:

[quote=“poster B”] Did one of my posts disappear? I hadn’t noticed. Hmmm…eerie.
[/quote]

At 3:26 pm on 21 November, I posted the following:

@tigerman

No, posts are not actually disappearing. I have simply moved some off-topic posts from this thread (a discussion re capital punishment) to a new thread (Conservatives vs. Liberal).

[/quote]

I trust this direction was/is satisfactory.

[gus]

@tigerman

I don’t know how to link to individual posts…

At the top of each post is a tiny icon just to the left of the word, “Posted:” – this is a link.

The fastest way to get the URL of a specific post (in Internet Explorer) is to right click on this tiny rectangle-like icon and choose “Copy shortcut…” – then you can Paste (CTRL-V in Windows) the URL anywhere you like

[foodie]

@Closet Queen

[color=blue]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/color]

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness, Tigerman. Such a move would do much to ameliorate this situation and placate anyone doubting your integrity as moderator.

Or aren’t you in favor of big government?

[Big_Fluffy_Matthew]

@gus

[quote=“tigerman”]I don’t know how to link to individual posts…

At the top of each post is a tiny icon just to the left of the word, “Posted:” – this is a link.[/quote]My… that is tiny, I’ve never seen that before :shock:
Also, if you think your posts have disappeared, there is a link to “Your Own Posts” on the main index.

If Tigerman wanted to abuse his power, he could have deleted or edited posts. It takes 2 clicks to delete a post, but many many more to split off posts into another thread.

[Cold_Front]

[quote=“foodie”][quote=“Closet Queen”]

[color=blue]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/color]
[/quote]

Why don’t you, Tigerman, ameliorate this situation by agreeing with the above?

I’m sure it will go along way in placating anyone doubting your integrity as moderator.

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness.[/quote]

Why does anyone have reason to doubt Tigerman’s integrity? No proof has been given to warrant any reason for doubting it. It’s a non-issue.

If Tigerman and/or the other moderators now agree to the suggestion made here by Closet Queen, then they are tacitly agreeing to CQ’s criticism of Tigerman’s moderating, which was also made here. And that they should not do. Had Closet Queen brought up the issue in an appropriate manner without framing it as a spurious attack, then maybe – maybe – it might have merited some discussion.

[Tigerman]

@Closet Queen

[color=blue]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/color]

@foodie

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness, Tigerman. Such a move would do much to ameliorate this situation and placate anyone doubting your integrity as moderator.

I’m not going to “counter” this suggestion. Its not my place to do so. I was asked to moderate the IP forum. I agreed. I was told that I would be the only moderator, but that statement did not lead me to believe that I would always be the sole moderator. If the administration believes I am not a good moderator, or that the forum requires or would be better served by two moderators, the administration will assign another moderator.

As it isn’t a matter that I can decide, I fail to see how my not “countering” the suggestion above in any way reflects, one way or another, on my integrity as a moderator.

[Tigerman]

@gus

[quote=“tigerman”]I don’t know how to link to individual posts…

At the top of each post is a tiny icon just to the left of the word, “Posted:” – this is a link.

The fastest way to get the URL of a specific post (in Internet Explorer) is to right click on this tiny rectangle-like icon and choose “Copy shortcut…” – then you can Paste (CTRL-V in Windows) the URL anywhere you like [/quote]

Thanks gus,

But, at home (now), I’m using an iMac.

[foodie]

[quote=“tigerman”][quote=“Closet Queen”]

[color=blue]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/color]
[/quote]

@foodie

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness, Tigerman. Such a move would do much to ameliorate this situation and placate anyone doubting your integrity as moderator.

I’m not going to “counter” this suggestion. Its not my place to do so. I was asked to moderate the IP forum. I agreed. I was told that I would be the only moderator, but that statement did not lead me to believe that I would always be the sole moderator. If the administration believes I am not a good moderator, or that the forum requires or would be better served by two moderators, the administration will assign another moderator.

As it isn’t a matter that I can decide, I fail to see how my not “countering” the suggestion above in any way reflects, one way or another, on my integrity as a moderator.[/quote]

Oh how typical. The “administration,” you speak of, is but one person and not some intanglible ordainment.

Do this: Write to Maoman, say, look I’ve had a complaint because I moved a post. As I am quite active in the discussions in my forum, and given that I am a professed conversative, shouldn’t we avert further incident and possible questioning of my integrity by appointing someone else to balance things.

Oh and on a Mac, it’s Apple C and Apple V, to copy and paste.

[Tigerman]

[quote=“Closet Queen”]Let me clarify three points.

Tigerman only informed the posters that he had moved their posts after they asked where the posts were. We must presume he would not have done so unless they raised this question.[/quote]

Let me pick a few nits, as I sometimes like to do…

The posters did not inquire as to where their posts had gone… in fact, they only questioned whether some posts had “disappeared”. I responded to those inquiries by indicating a) that the posts had not “disappeared” and b) that they had been moved to another thread (which thread I identified).

@Closet Queen

According to Maoman, moderators are free to move posts at their discretion. However, Tigerman moved the post at the request of another (MT).

No, the thread initiator did not request that I move the off-topic threads. He merely brought to my attention that the posts were off-topic. I then decided to move the off-topic posts. Pray tell, how is that not an exercise of my discretion?

@Closet Queen

When specifically asked why he moved them, he said he did so because another poster had requested him to do so. He agreed with their request and the post was moved.

Again, the thread initiator did NOT request that I move any posts. I did NOT state that I moved the posts upon a request to do so. But again, even if I did, how would that not have been an exercize of my discretion?

@Closet Queen

Further, I don’t believe that the person who begins a thread should exercise control over it’s subsequent development, such as by having posts moved. The thread belongs to the community surely.

What part of Maoman’s clarification was beyond your ability to comprehend? The person who initiated the thread in this instance did not make any request nor did he make the decision to split and move the posts and thus he did not “control” the development of the thread. I decided, in my discretion, to move several off-topic posts. Where is the contradiction or abuse?

@Closet Queen

It’s tautologous to say the political forum is political but it must be pointed out. I know I am not alone in thinking it is ridiculous to have only one right-wing moderator moderating the political forum. The risk of abuse of power is too great.

How did you know that I have been planning to have all who disagree with me thrown into a Taiwan prison or deported?

@Closet Queen

Other busy and less controversial forums have more than one moderator Thus I argue that at least two moderators of diverging political views are required, and that no editing of the thread be allowed without their mutual consent.

Just how controversial is all this? I do this simply for enjoyment and hopefully to help ward off Alzheimer’s disease. Controversy… that’s over in the Middle East.

Anyway, there are many types of editing possible. Whatever happens here, I can state confidently that there are few, if any, posters or moderators, who are willing to allow nearly complete freedom of expression in these discussions to the extent that I am willing to do.

I am not arguing to retain my moderating “job”… but you might want to consider the old adage, “be careful of what you wish for”.

[Tigerman]

@Closet Queen

[color=blue]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators, preferably with diverging political standpoints. In short, we need another moderator here who leans to the left in order to ensure that further posts are not moved without their author’s consent, and to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.[/color]

@foodie

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness, Tigerman. Such a move would do much to ameliorate this situation and placate anyone doubting your integrity as moderator.

[quote=“tigerman”]I’m not going to “counter” this suggestion. Its not my place to do so. I was asked to moderate the IP forum. I agreed. I was told that I would be the only moderator, but that statement did not lead me to believe that I would always be the sole moderator. If the administration believes I am not a good moderator, or that the forum requires or would be better served by two moderators, the administration will assign another moderator.

As it isn’t a matter that I can decide, I fail to see how my not “countering” the suggestion above in any way reflects, one way or another, on my integrity as a moderator.[/quote]

[quote=“foodie”]Oh how typical. The “administration,” you speak of, is but one person and not some intanglible ordainment.

Do this: Write to Maoman, say, look I’ve had a complaint because I moved a post. As I am quite active in the discussions in my forum, and given that I am a professed conversative, shouldn’t we avert further incident and possible questioning of my integrity by appointing someone else to balance things.[/quote]

Things are out of balance? :shock:

When only one person is an administrator, that person is the “administration”. Or, am I mistaken in this thinking?

Tell you what… If you’re so concerned about the perception of my integrity as a moderator, you write to Moaman and make the suggestion.

@foodie

Oh and on a Mac, it’s Apple C and Apple V, to copy and paste.

Thanks… but I’m really a not good with these machines. I still don’t know what to do.

You wouldn’t be another cyber-manifestation of Alien, would you?

[maoman]

@foodie

[quote=“Closet Queen”]I suggest that the political forum requires a minimum of two moderators… …to ensure that all political viewpoints are fairly recorded.

As of yet, you’ve not countered this suggestion, as is custom, given your usual thoroughness, Tigerman. Such a move would do much to ameliorate this situation and placate anyone doubting your integrity as moderator. Or aren’t you in favor of big government? [/quote]
Actually, tigerman’s integrity is beyond reproach. Basically tigerman was chosen for his thoroughness in his posts, which I hoped would carry over to the more tedious “housekeeping” tasks involved in moderation (it has) and most importantly his enthusiasm for this website. I never agreed with his politics, but that’s fine. Anyway, the choosing of a new moderator is one of the perqs of admin. I may or may not bring on more moderators in the future.

I am pretty aware of what our moderators do (or don’t do), and I’m not afraid of a little controversy. We have more than one “controversial” moderator on board, and we’re the richer for it.

Feedback is always appreciated, keep calling 'em like you see 'em.

[Big_Fluffy_Matthew]

Did Tigerman move all posts that were off topic ? Or just the ones he disagreed with ?

[Joesox]

@tigerman

I am not arguing to retain my moderating “job”… but you might want to consider the old adage, “be careful of what you wish for”.

Looks like you’re doing a pretty good job. What’s more, you’re giving up your time to do so.

Just to reiterate the point I’ve made before that Forumosa is neither a profit-making company nor some kind of ‘democratic’ public body; it’s just a very useful resource, run by dedicated volunteers and financed by donations. That means that there’s a lot of freedom to make pragmatic decisions that serve the majority, as has been done in this case. Nothing has been deleted, nothing censored, no opinion left unstated.

My opinion on the two moderators issue is that Tigerman’s doing a good job and I don’t really think that adding another more ‘leftist’ moderator would change any practical decisions. In addition, as I have said before, I don’t think that opinions and viewpoints come only from a two-colour spectrum of ‘left’ and ‘right’, so to truly appear non-biased we might have to have as many moderators as there were opinions! Then everybody would be arguing about moderation issues and we would probably not have any political discussions, which would be no skin off my nose but a great pity for the not insignificant number of posters and readers who enjoy them and find them rewarding.

[Tigerman]

@Big Fluffy Matthew

Did Tigerman move all posts that were off topic ? Or just the ones he disagreed with ?

Matthew,

I’m fairly certain that your question above is a rhetorical one… but for the benefit of those who might be wondering… I moved all posts that I thought were off-topic, including, I believe, some of my own that responded to other off-topic posts.

There are a bunch more (posts) now in that particular thread that I would like to merge with the Debate Etiquette thread (which I would like to re-title “Debate Etiquette & Moderating”) in the IP forum. Unfortunately, I don’t know how to do this.

MT started a good thread and the topic thereof was being well debated from several different perspectives… its a shame, IMO, that this incident has caused that thread to veer so far off-topic.