Is A-Bian a big fat liar or the victim of defamation?

[Mr_He]

@huggie

Why? When it comes down to it politicians are all dirty. As a citizen who would you pick as your president?

Now, let’s look at the dirty and power-hungry DPP politicians. Did they enter politics to feather their nest? No, if that did so, then they would not have participiated in the Gaoxiong incident.

The usual Taiwanese assertion "all politians are dirty, and the only resond your westerners politicians don’t do very much under the table is that they can’t get away with it is not very fair, and show a relatively weak understanding of western politics and societies in general. (I am not talking about basket cases like Italy etc). I would say that the politicial process are very clean in Scandinavia and in places like NZ.

[Mr_He]

@huggie

So far you haven’t proved anything I said incorrect yet. On the other hand I see you not checking facts when you makes an argument.

Let’s see. Take a look at the post right above.

@huggie

Am I understanding your words? Where is the bases for this? Few months before the election there are still about 30%(I don’t remember numbers well but it’s siginificant) of the people who can’t decide who they’ll vote on polls.

No middle ground. Well, where is the midle ground here. I see two groups staring each other down, with not very much in the way of sitting down and get the issues resolved.

The middle ground here are people who don’t like to reveal who they are voting for or (in the case of 20% of the electorate) don’t vote. Most of my inlaws are “the middle ground” as they don’t respond to the questions of any pollster - after all there was only 1 political party here until 1986, and people were afraid of saying anything political to their own kids.

[Mr_He]

[quote=“huggie”] I’m sorry I typed the wrong words. It’s 邱義仁, 總統府秘書長, secretary general?

A DPP member who handles the election (Or according to pro-blue papers: 操盤.) together with 吳乃仁.[/quote]

The general secretary of the presidential office does much more than that - I tought that I was 2 other DPP pols taking care of the actual running of president chen’s reelection campaign.

He rund the office, is a very senior and close advisor etc.

I would be saying bad things about him as well, as he is likely to be the man behind the referendum, major parts of the reelection strategy.

KMT should have hired him.

[huggie]

@Mr He

The socalled “middle ground” does not exist in Taiwanese politics…

@Mr He

The middle ground here are people who don’t like to reveal who they are voting for or (in the case of 20% of the electorate) don’t vote.

Seriously, you’re making me confused as to what your position is.

@Mr He

Now, let’s look at the dirty and power-hungry DPP politicians. Did they enter politics to feather their nest? No, if that did so, then they would not have participiated in the Gaoxiong incident.

Elaborate I’m not getting this. Forgive my ignorance. What Gaoxiong incident? How do they participate it?

@Mr He

The usual Taiwanese assertion "all politians are dirty, and the only resond your westerners politicians don’t do very much under the table is that they can’t get away with it is not very fair, and show a relatively weak understanding of western politics and societies in general. (I am not talking about basket cases like Italy etc). I would say that the politicial process are very clean in Scandinavia and in places like NZ.

OK, some people in some country are not dirty. That has nothing to do with Taiwan. My argument “all politicians are dirty, so I should pick them by considering other issues” are not addressed to other parts of the world. It’s only addressed to the situation in Taiwan. In Taiwan we got the first lady and Lee and Soong…so I pick by other things.

See your argument does not really address to my argument. Therefore I’m not convinced.

[Mr_He]

Huggie, I am getting seriously tired of you.What you called the middle ground here is not a block of moderate voters, more people who don’t want to reveal their preferences or who don’t bother. They turned up in the polls as “undecided”. Read my posts before replying, please.

I was talking about: 美麗島事件.If you don’t know about that; then your general ignorance of Taiwanese politics can be forgiven.

Your assertion about dirty politics is still wrong. What you are saying is that people who damn nearly died trying to democracize this island are a bunch of power-hungry money-grubbing morons. A lot of Taiwanese pols of all stripes are like that. however, there are a few, nearly all in the green camp, who are reasonably clean.

Let’s see. The first LY elections held here under DPP (justice minister Chen Dingnan) purview were held late 2001. They were the cleanest elections here on record. In general, corruption on this island is better than it was under KMT rule and the quality of life here has improved due to that. while a great deal of the corruption talk here centers on Lee Denghui and the 1990’s then it was much worse before him - however by mentioning so back in the 1970’s you risked a sudden and early death. Sure people started to talk in the 1990’s, they were allowed to.

When it comes to the daytrading first lady, let’s see was it a total trading volume of NT$30 million?

Yeah, less than a million US, which she could have got by legal means. Wait, noone says that she has almost a million bucks, all they say is that she traded for a total of 30 million NT. I don’t know over which period of time. If you are a day trader with say 1-2 million NT in your kitty when starting out, and your liquidate the position before the stock market closes every day, then it would take you a month at most to trade for a total of NT$30m.

is it unethical that she does it? To some extent, if it can be proven that she used insider knowledge when she placed her bets. (After all, people are innocent until proven guilty) while I don’t know the laws here, then as far as I know, MS Wu Shuzhen is not elected to any office more than you are. As long as she does not break any laws, she can do as she pleases -just like you and me.

Does her possible misdemeanor compare up the dirtyness of the other side? Hardly, there are still US$400m of James soong’s unexplained wealth in a frozen bank account somewhere. (Don’t think the monies remain in Ching Hsing Bills)

[huggie]

@Mr He

Huggie, I am getting seriously tired of you.What you called the middle ground here is not a block of moderate voters, more people who don’t want to reveal their preferences or who don’t bother. They turned up in the polls as “undecided”. Read my posts before replying, please.

Like I said, I couldn’t understand it. I sincerely mean it.

@Mr He

Let’s see. The first LY elections held here under DPP (justice minister Chen Dingnan) purview were held late 2001. They were the cleanest elections here on record. In general, corruption on this island is better than it was under KMT rule and the quality of life here has improved due to that. while a great deal of the corruption talk here centers on Lee Denghui and the 1990’s then it was much worse before him - however by mentioning so back in the 1970’s you risked a sudden and early death. Sure people started to talk in the 1990’s, they were allowed to.

I don’t care who is worse. Why am I going to argu something that is probably false? OK KMT is worse on blackgold issue. I just want you to ackknowledge that DPP is also currupt and doesn’t always respect the laws. Read on that foreigner thread I posted.

[quote=“Mr He”]When it comes to the daytrading first lady, let’s see was it a total trading volume of NT$30 million?

Yeah, less than a million US, which she could have got by legal means. Wait, noone says that she has almost a million bucks, all they say is that she traded for a total of 30 million NT. I don’t know over which period of time. If you are a day trader with say 1-2 million NT in your kitty when starting out, and your liquidate the position before the stock market closes every day, then it would take you a month at most to trade for a total of NT$30m.[/quote]

I’m not concentrating on whether that is by legal mean because I can’t prove it. What I said was on other things. There are a total of 8(or 10 or other number?) transactions over the last year with a value of over 10 million. She only reported 2 and told us that there weren’tt any more. She lied about the rest when questions, until KMT digged it out. And Chen Yo Hao thing was also about lies she said about meeting him. Not necessarily whether they cutted deals or not.[/quote]

@Mr He

As long as she does not break any laws, she can do as she pleases -just like you and me.

I told you. It’s lies that I’m concentrated on. And don’t tell me KMT also lies blah blah. I know that! My point is to have you to look at a somewhat more balanced view.

@Mr He

Does her possible misdemeanor compare up the dirtyness of the other side? Hardly, there are still US$400m of James soong’s unexplained wealth in a frozen bank account somewhere. (Don’t think the monies remain in Ching Hsing Bills)

You digressed.

I told you. I don’t cast a vote base on how they’re getting their money. If you do, fine. I’m only to say they’re all dirty. It’s you who told me that you don’t buy this Taiwanese argument of politicians are all dirty blah blah. So I argued that politicians are all dirty. Also read that foreigner thread about DPP also not following laws. Don’t tell me KMT is worst. That’s not my argument. I don’t care if KMT is worse.

[daltongang]

@huggie

I don’t care who is worse. Why am I going to argu something that is probably false? OK KMT is worse on blackgold issue. I just want you to ackknowledge that DPP is also currupt and doesn’t always respect the laws. Read on that foreigner thread I posted.

Well I answered your “charges” on there huggie. I must say, your arguments are heavy on assertions that the DPP is as bad as the KMT and light, featherweight in fact, on actual examples of DPP misbehavior.

I told you. It’s lies that I’m concentrated on. And don’t tell me KMT also lies blah blah. I know that! My point is to have you to look at a somewhat more balanced view.

I have been here for a long time and I believe that I do have a balanced view. A balanced view is not as simple as saying “all politicians are dirty.” I find your view unbalanced in the extreme.

[Mr_He]

I think that the notion that there are people who entered politics out of ideals will not be understood by our Taiwanese friend.

He’s starting to piss me off.

The way things were presented on ICRT was that her total transaction value was NT$10m. What bothers me about that is that no legal; charges have been brought yet - after all she does not enjoy any immunity from prosecution.

At least legal charges were brought against Soong.

Claiming that all politicians are dirty is the same as claiming that all chinese are greedy. Utter bullshit.

[Juba]

@Mr He

Now, let’s look at the dirty and power-hungry DPP politicians. Did they enter politics to feather their nest? No, if that did so, then they would not have participiated in the Gaoxiong Incident.

To clarify, Annette Lu (Lu Xiulian) took part in the Kaohsiung incident and went to prison as a result (for about five years.) However, this thread is about Wu Shuzhen. To my knowledge, neither she nor her husband Chen Shuibian took part in the Kaohsiung Inciedent. Chen Shuibian was a defence lawyer at the trial. Chen Shuibian did spend some time in prison when he lost a libel case - nothing to do with the Kaohsiung incident.

[Mr_He]

@Juba

Chen Shuibian did spend some time in prison when he lost a libel case - nothing to do with the Kaohsiung (Gaoxiong) incident.

Singaporean libel I presume - brought by the pan-blue paragon of virtue, justice and democracy, Elmer Feng.