[quote=“bob_honest”][quote=“Bu Lai En”]
Unfortunately many foreigners’ main contact with Taiwanese is in the form of their bosses…
Brian[/quote]
You know my wife and her “I am the boss” attitude?[/quote]
You didn’t get the note from her saying, “I’m the boss, and that you got permission for saying that”? Sorry buddy 
I will preface this post by saying I am not an english teacher here on Taiwan. If this were in the english taching forums I would not comment on this topic.
It appears there is a difference of experience among the english teaching posters here and those who are not. I think this may be a hint at something. The Taiwanese dealing with the english teachers know, from long experience, that most, not all, of their teachers are A Only with them for a short time, B Teaching for them only until they find a better, usually more money, job. And C Very likely to leave with little or no notice. This might very well be a determining factor in how much honesty they are willing to invest in their dealings with their employees.
I am not condoning this on either ethical or moral levels. Just offering it up as a way of looking at the topic.
I have dealt with ‘Taiwanese’ in business matters for almost 15 years on a pretty regular basis. I have found ‘them’ to be no less ethical/honest than any other group. In several instances, by different individuals and companies, I have been plesantly surprised by Taiwanese honesty and ethics. I also believe that the length of the relationship and business involvement goes a long way to maintaining this honesty. Quite logical.
I also believe it is the responsibility of both sides in a business arrangment to do as much as possible to protect themself/theirselves in their endeavours.
Just my $0.02NT.
Ok, the last few posts have helped, thanks.
So to repeat my question, what I am trying to discern at present is whether there is any real difference between Taiwanese dishonesty or misdirection in order to ‘save face’, and Western dishonesty and misdirection in order to ‘save face’.
Most of the examples I’ve seen posted here are the same kinds of things I’ve experienced in my two workplaces in Australia.
I would like to make two things very clear:
a) I am NOT an English teacher and never have been one.
b) I do NOT think that Taiwanese people in general are more or less dishonest than other Asians/Westerners/Africans or whatever.
I have met many good, honest, caring people here, and I have also met many people with exactly the opposite character traits.
What I don’t understand is that even the good, caring, honest types LIE TO YOUR FACE at times. Like some of my colleagues, and friends, KNOWINGLY giving me wrong directions and basically refusing to help with even the tiniest little thing, like typing an address in Chinese characters on my cellphone so I can sms it to a Westerner friend. I have many other examples. My first landlady blatantly lied to my roommates and I about a number of things, including apartment building service fees, hell even garbage collecting days, not to mention the length of the contract and and and…
What is better - telling somebody you can’t help them with directions because you don’t know where a place is, or sending somebody off on a wild-goose chase, sometimes at night to dubious areas, just to show how great and helpful and nice you are, even though those directions are pure fantasy on your behalf AND YOU KNOW IT?
Is it OK in Taiwanese society to lie? I would love to think not - maybe somebody can enlighten me on this subject.
But I did learn something the other day. Recently I pointed out to a friend who has been here for years that I have not yet met a single Taiwanese person with even the most basic ability to read a map, doesn’t matter how educated or uneducated, and I travel a lot around the island. Ditto for compass points like north, south, east, west - they do not know. Period. My friend explained that, in the martial-law era, people weren’t allowed to read maps, and therefor also weren’t taught to read maps, and there were no maps available, anyway.
OK so now I understand that. Were they also taught in the martial law era to enthusiastically send anybody asking any question about directions, or where a certain place is, in any direction BUT the right one?
Please help me here, I’d like to understand that.
And that’s my NT$0.02 worth on this subject.
Is there anything you like about Taiwan or its people? I don’t ask this question to be rude or poke fun, but as a sincere question of whether you like it here or not. I think you need to ask yourself: “Why do I stay in a place that I hate?”
If you have this bad feeling about Taiwanese people a lot, I think it may be time to consider whether Taiwan is the right place for you. Perhaps you are already thinking about leaving Taiwan, I don’t know. Change is never easy, but it sounds like you are in a negative funk and the only way to get out of it is to either change your attitude or change your environment and hope that will result in a change to your attitude. I’m not one of those people who feel that if you are unhappy living in Taiwan as a foreigner, you are simply an unhappy person. I believe that life in a foreign culture can place stress on even the most stable of people, which may cause them to think or act in ways very different from how they think or act in their native home.
I first lived in Taiwan from '89-'96 and was pretty down on the place towards the end of that stint. I was living outside Taipei in some of Taiwan’s backwaters in those days. I hated everything, the pollution, the crowds, the binglang chewing psychopaths in the blue trucks, my buxiban boss, teaching etc. So, I left. Not the easiest thing to do, I must admit, and there were many days back in the States when I missed Taiwan. But, eventually, I readjusted to the States and was living a very happy life there. Less pollution, tolerable crowds, no binglang chewing psychopaths in the blue trucks, no buxiban boss, no teaching etc. 
Leaving can be hard, especially if you invested a lot of money coming here to either work or study, had defined goals you wanted to meet and feel that leaving before you accomplish your goals will mean that you (a) threw a lot of money away, and/or (b) quit on your goals. However, no bit of money or goal is worth suffering a completely unhappy life in Taiwan if you don’t think there is any way to make it better (absent leaving, of course).
I can only guess what life can be like for a single black woman in Taiwan. I was sick of Taiwan in '96 and I got to experience the place through the shoes of a single white man, which as you know comes with a lot of benefits. Is there anything that you think you can do personally to diminish these bad feelings about Taiwan and its people? If not, why not? If so, what things could you do?
Unfortunately, I can only offer you questions, not answers. Each of us has to find his or her own little existence in Taiwan, the things that make this place worth living in. What I like about Taiwan may be things another hates and vice versa.
I came back to Taiwan in April 2003 to work because I was offered a job while in the States and the economics (low taxes/low cost of living) made sense. I did not return for the cultural experience or to discover Taiwan. I came here to pay off my law school loans (which I have) and to save up some cash for a house back in the States. I have very limited and defined goals. The funny thing is, I am very happy in Taiwan at the moment and have been pretty much since I got here 20 mos. ago. There are still many things that annoy me on a daily basis, the pollution, the crowds, the binglang chewing psychopaths in the blue trucks, my current boss, work etc. And, as soon as I find that these annoyances outweigh any reasons for staying in Taiwan, I
Smef -
Well said.
Clearly defined goals. Focus of energies. And the very important fall-back of an established time frame of when to
get off the island.
Those factors can go a long way in maintaining sanity here.
At the risk of sounding silly, I would a programme of regular excercise, outdoors preferably, to this. It does wonders.
[quote=“bob_honest”]Lies are not really lies here. That is what I wanted to express in my original post.
But really I do not care what and why, I only want Broetchen.[/quote]
Thanks bob. I’m also going to, from now on, lie blatantly to everybody I come across, but only while I’m in Taiwan. I’m looking forward already! Imagine the fun:
Stranger: I know that accent! Where in South Africa are you from?
Me: I’m not from South Africa, I’m Taiwanese. My father is Hakka and my mother a mainlander 
I also don’t really care about long, explanatory philosophical mini-theses on the subject. And ALL I want at the moment is Broetchen!! (And that’s no lie!) 
[color=darkblue]Fortigurn:
For once, I’m not going to jump in all PC-police. If this were your only post, I’d call you a bigot. However, I think you’re honestly expressing where you are, and you aren’t enjoying it at the moment.
I’ve read that culture shock tends to follow four stages in a cycle.
Honeymoon - everything is so great, people friendly, etc…
Rejection - little things drive you nuts, people seem less friendly
Regression - seek out people and things from home country, insulate your self from local stuff
Recovery - you learn how to communicate and live independently, you see the place fully, flaws and pluses.
Your intial post reads like you may be in stage 2.
Good advice on this thread. Exercise, spend your time doing things you are interested in, be selective about who you spend your time with. Try to learn a bit of the language, etc…
Good luck Nama! And, get some sun. That always helps me.
[quote=“enpai”][color=darkblue]Fortigurn:
… very interesting and applies mostly to me as well. I just left stage 2 I think (my initial post and rule of thumb still had a bit of stage 2, haha). Now starting to learn the language. And my grey NeiHu side street looked a bit nicer these days.
[quote=“rooftop”]I’ve read that culture shock tends to follow four stages in a cycle.
Honeymoon - everything is so great, people friendly, etc…
Rejection - little things drive you nuts, people seem less friendly
Regression - seek out people and things from home country, insulate your self from local stuff
Recovery - you learn how to communicate and live independently, you see the place fully, flaws and pluses.[/quote]
Yes, I think I am probaly still in phase 1 (although I feel phase 2 creeping in) which may may explain my perhaps overly deffensive response to the origanal post of the thread and bob_honest’s phase 2 post which I am sure was made at least partially in jest.
[quote=“banshette”] and it cost me a helluva lot of money, what with having to go on a visa run etc. etc. etc. Not to mention a dent in my previous probably naive habit of believing what people tell me, with a caring and sincere attitude, unless they were obvious bullshitters.
I’m not saying all Taiwanese people are like that, but there is a lot of that type of thing going on involving people one would never expect it from.[/quote]
Lucky you. You got some “real life training” at “never never land” instead of at the “real world”. Be happy about this I went through the same process and am proud to say that by the time I’m back home I’d have gained some of those oh so usefull skills that I was lacking before, like lying and back-stabbing. Those are quite essential in today’s work environment. You can get a lot more out of teaching here than just cash.
No Nutella,
The original post was awful and provoked a similar reaction in me.
But, when seen along with numerous other posts Nama has made, it didn’t make me automatically assume she’s racist, more in a bad place and trying to express it/make sense of it.
I am a stage 4. used to everything, seen the most, and still like it.
That said, you will have to live with the odd down day, but not many of those.
The four point list simplifies the process of adjusting to living in a country foreign to us. Oh, it would be so easy if when we got to step four we would be finished and we could go happily along the road of our life. However, as we go deeper into any culture different aspects of the culture bring us to different points on the list. It is not unusual to be constantly fluctuating between these points.
ergo, the inclusion of “tends to” and “follow a cycle” 
I often get the “What the hell am I doing here?” feeling. I’m slumming at a job far beneath my capabilities, wasting time learning about a culture and language I have no special fondness for, dating local women I have no great interest in and I know I’m not going to find the love of my life amongst the xiaojies, basically going along with the flow of life with no purpose or ambition because the lifestyle here is so easy and convenient. Taiwan sucks you in and before you know it you’ve wasted several years of your life on this island, accomplishing nothing. Is it really my lot in life to work as a performing monkey for children? I know I can do a hell of a lot better than this. Underachieving is too easy.
Mod,
That, in a nutshell, is why I left Tainan.
Taipei (and other places in the world) offers opportunities beyond what most of us without fluent Mandarin or excellent connections could turn up in that small, but appealing city.
Maybe it’s Tainan. Or maybe it’s time to seek out stuff beyond Taiwan.
A friend of mine once said, (about the Taiwanese)
“It’s their first day on the job.”
You can apply it to most situations you find yourself.