[quote=“Fortigurn”][quote=“enpai”]In all due respect after only 6 months being here you are still in awe and amazement with your new cultural surroundings. The reality of living in another culture has not deeply penetrated yet. In another 6
Every place in the world is what you make of it.
If you are slumming away and wasting your life here, then try to change it, no way around that.
That pretty much sums up 2004 for me. Though I guess the scary thing is that whereas a year ago I felt nothing but intense exsistential dread because I was completely underacheiving, now I could hardly give a shit.
Grad school? Umm, yeah, I’ve got that application for grad school somewhere.
Here’s hoping that dating an American girl with no intention of staying in Taiwan past when her Hess contract is up is the thing to kick my ass in gear.
That pretty much sums up 2004 for me. Though I guess the scary thing is that whereas a year ago I felt nothing but intense exsistential dread because I was completely underacheiving, now I could hardly give a shit.
Grad school? Umm, yeah, I’ve got that application for grad school somewhere.
Here’s hoping that dating an American girl with no intention of staying in Taiwan past when her Hess contract is up is the thing to kick my ass in gear.[/quote]
You two!!! Meaningful employment can be found anywhere!!! The real question is
[quote=“Mr He”]Every place in the world is what you make of it.
If you are slumming away and wasting your life here, then try to change it, no way around that.[/quote]
Oh Mr He, I’ve managed 16 years of slumming my way around and wasting my life away here, do you mean I should change all that?
Damn, just when I’m feeling comfortable numb you come along and suggest change… nah nah nah nah nah… can’t be done.
[quote=“bob_honest”]There is a behaviour here which is more tactical towards other people than in western countries. This is why Taiwanese and Chinese do consider themselves to be more clever than other nationals. I found when being asked a question, “information hiding” is more common here. If you give information, someone could use it against you! My wife explained to me: a clever person always avoids corrects answers about things like your previous companies, even your sisters and brothers. She explained: if I tell person A I have a sister called Ellen. Then I could not use Ellen as a witness for me one day. Applying for a job needs you to provide a witness.
In family life here, people think more tactical as well and do business with each other. In my country I would get my aunt a kilo of meet from the butcher, if it is on my way and charge here the original price. Here, people try to make a profit, even with their relative.
Or how my culture book puts it:
Westerners do not make business in the family, but rather with strangers.
Chinese love to do business with their family rather than with strangers.
Is it good? Is it bad? I do not judge. All I say is: OUR WESTERN STANDARDS ARE BULLSHIT here. So be prepared to have a business-warlord dealing with you, when a Taiwansese family member is doing you a favour!
YES, if you lose your purse, they probably will bring it to you. Stealing and keeping other peoples propertyis something totally different.
Our western honesty does not apply here, they have a different one.
And I found individualism less strong here in Taipei “Chinese” families than in western countries. This has nothing to do with being human or not.[/quote]
bob_honest, I
Man it stings that I didn’t see the beginning of this thread!
There’s a problem defining honesty here. A while ago I had the same qualms with the whole population of Taiwan, totally sick of getting ripped off, feeling patronised and insulted by all the politeness, being treated like dirt by shop ladies, and trying to come to terms with the staring, which is particularly hard when you have spent most of your life in a multicultural city where everyone’s from everywhere so get over it. Then I started working at this Chinese kindy every arvo. It wasn’t until then that (before that I was just studying Chinese on a scholarship and not working and the interaction was minimal) I started to really see what was going on with the Face and all that. All the indirectness was really pissing me off as usual, and all I wanted to say was “GET TO THE FRICKIN POINT, WHY CAN’T YOU JUST BE HONEST! I HAVE NO BAD INTENTIONS, I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, SO WHY CAN’T I JUST BE HONEST WITH YOU!!!” You know the deal. Well a few things changed and I have found the teachers there to be very honest, very sincere, and very lovely etc, just indirect about it. They are honest about the job I’m doing e.g. ‘You’re being a bum, start preparing for classes’ but instead of taking me into a corner and telling me straight out, will drop hints while talking to the kids, or do other tactical stuff like move objects out of their usual places, cough, scold some kid for something… or stand at the door while you leave to show that you’re welcome (one of my favourites 
). Honesty and straightforwardness/directness have to be seperated into honest intentions and the way you express them. If the lovely ladies there were dishonest, they would use indirect ways of telling me I was doing a fantastic job.
Regarding the notion of the Chinese (true or not true) considering themselves more clever than everyone else, my conclusion is that when it comes to Emotional Intelligence they are pretty quick. Also, when I consider my superficial knowledge of Chinese history and all the wars and instability and all that stuff going on for so long, I dare say that in that part of the world, people’s self-protective walls of politeness are a little thicker than they are in other places. Perhaps, in some ways, by acknowledging that these days you do have to be cautious about being taken advantage of, they are in fact more honest with themselves and with the world?
I still get charged too much for everything and refused the option to bargain and it used to upset me like nothing else. I used to think to myself, ‘if these people love foreigners so much, why can’t they frickin show it!!! What was all that b/shit about foreigners being welcome here!!! why does everyone want to learn English but not understand Western culture!!! Why does everyone want to move to American and Canada and Australia if they think their own culture is better!!! To make money, or to learn English so then they can make money, you say?? - Greedy mother-f88dfsdsf!’ I will never fit in here, because I am not Chinese, and that is a reality I am learning to accept, although it sucks that I should have to. As for being treated like dirt going shopping, well, sadly enough, I finally gave in to the pressure of conforming, and started DRESSING UP just to go looking around Mitsokoshi. Oh god it made such a difference. Not only did I feel great which is normal anyway, but just as pronounced as it was when people were nasty, it was equally pronounced when people made comments about being so piaoliang and being EXTRA nice to me. It sucks that I eventually gave in though. (And did I really look that bad before?)
My own sweeping generalisation about the people here is that Buddhists and Christians are nicer and kinder in the western senses of the words than everyone else. I’m not religious myself but these things I have just noticed over the past fourteen months. When it comes to transactions they will seem more ‘honest’, the definition of which in this case I take to be a lesser likelihood of [color=brown]trying to get as much money from you as humanly possible[/color]. That’s business, so I have learnt to stop getting the sh–s when people seem ‘dishonest’ in this way. Is it really dishonesty? That’s the business culture here, and it seems to be working for them fine.
Welcome to life in a developing Asian nation.
This reminds me of my stay in Australia during the nineties. At the Gold Coast, a group of caucasian males from across the street pointed at me and shouted,“Hey, look! A jap!”. I was nonplussed about it and imagined saying to them to differentiate a “chink” from a “jap” accurately before making a fool of themselves so publicly. Anyway, it just goes to show that bums transcends all borders, and all nationalities.
P.S. Can’t even write the word “ch–k” here, eh. Ok, I respect that, its cool actually. Just thought that replacing it with “Asian from China” by the system here is pretty cute 
That’s exactly what I observed about the sales staff in my first year here. I am Chinese by race, actually. It is not on their agenda to disparage the caucasians only, but rather, a matter of getting better commission that comes with making a sale to prosperous-looking customers - A “Look rich, will spend more” mentality, if you will. Basically the salespeople just see us all as calves on the sales floor, fatted or otherwise, regardless of colour. It is not pleasant, but not all that surprising either.
That’s exactly what I observed about the sales staff in my first year here. I am Chinese by race, actually. It is not on their agenda to disparage the caucasians only, but rather, a matter of getting better commission that comes with making a sale to prosperous-looking customers - A “Look rich, will spend more” mentality, if you will. Basically the salespeople just see us all as calves on the sales floor, fatted or otherwise, regardless of colour. It is not pleasant, but not all that surprising either.[/quote]
Yeah, a while back I went to Mitsokoshi or Sogo to buy some shirts and ties for work. Talk about a pain in the ass, I was swamped by eager assistants screaming the virtues of of this or that (e.g. “Yes Sir, This one is Cotton!!”) I knew what I wanted and all wanted to do was to rummage thru some stuff and check things out…it was impossible. I left and returned a week later with my wife, thinking that would tone things down a bit. No way, just as bad, if not worse. Almost felt like WE were being rude just focusing on what we were doing and ignoring them.
I thought those Dept stores would have been classier than that.
Quite right. Be basically honest and lying a lot are not necessarily incompatible. I used to work in Taiwan for someone who never told me a direct lie, but was fundamentally dishonest. He was not Taiwanese.
Yeah, pity. Sorry you had to learn the hard way. Always assume people are lying to you. They probably are. There’s very little point in asking questions like directions, or about official things, or asking your bank questions. If they don’t know they’ll just lie, it’s the way it is. They don’t for a minute expect you to believe them.
[quote=“banshette”]What is better - telling somebody you can’t help them with directions because you don’t know where a place is, or sending somebody off on a wild-goose chase, sometimes at night to dubious areas, just to show how great and helpful and nice you are, even though those directions are pure fantasy on your behalf AND YOU KNOW IT?
Is it OK in Taiwanese society to lie? I would love to think not - maybe somebody can enlighten me on this subject. [/quote]
Yes it is. They do not expect you to believe them. The correct way to end the exchange is “Thanks very much” and then totally ignore their directions.
Correct. I find it hilarious. God knows how the army gets around. Dunno why it is. They generally can’t swim either. I guess it’s a cultural thing. Maybe no one teaches these things. Have you also noticed that they don’t sit on balconies outside either or ever look out the window? (Not that there’s much to see in this ugly town) I think there is a general aversion to being outside here which results in no swimming and no interest in maps. Note also the terror of rain (“it’s acid rain!”) and the sun (“I will go brown and look like a SE Asian!”). That is the worst thing that can happen to a Taiwanese woman. Don’t even joke about it. She’ll go home and dissolve her face in a bucket of Clorox.
[quote=“banshette”][quote=“bob_honest”]Lies are not really lies here. That is what I wanted to express in my original post.
But really I do not care what and why, I only want Broetchen.[/quote]
Thanks bob. I’m also going to, from now on, lie blatantly to everybody I come across, but only while I’m in Taiwan. I’m looking forward already! Imagine the fun:
Stranger: I know that accent! Where in South Africa are you from?
Me: I’m not from South Africa, I’m Taiwanese. My father is Hakka and my mother a mainlander 
I also don’t really care about long, explanatory philosophical mini-theses on the subject. And ALL I want at the moment is Broetchen!! (And that’s no lie!) 
[/quote]
Happy lying ! Who is this Broetchen you talk of?
[quote=“rooftop”]I’ve read that culture shock tends to follow four stages in a cycle.
Honeymoon - everything is so great, people friendly, etc…
Rejection - little things drive you nuts, people seem less friendly
Regression - seek out people and things from home country, insulate your self from local stuff
Recovery - you learn how to communicate and live independently, you see the place fully, flaws and pluses.
[/quote]
I keep reading that. I think it’s nonsense. Doesn’t apply to Taiwan. I think Rejection, Regression, Honeymoon, Recovery, Rejection, Recovery, Honeymoon, Suicide would be more like it. Or maybe, Honeymoon, Recovery, oh bugger. But I don’t believe most people here end up feeling settled and loving it. I think long-termers swing between the highs and lows quite often. And a lot of us have no idea how long we’re going to be here or where home is. We’re not really like the expat company men on whom this psychobabble was originally based. We are more like immigrants. However I am like Adonis. I fought in Vietnam you know. For the French. I once killed 40,000 Viet Minh with a bottle of shampoo. My father was Russian. He was seven foot four and fought in the Crimean War.
Just to throw my 2 kuai in the conversation:
I’ve been here about 2.5 years, and have gone through the "honeymoon blah blah blah " cycle more than once already. In fact, I have gone through that cycle in a single day!
I have taken to calling particularly difficult days in Taiwan my “cultural exchange days” as this gives me a bit of perspective. I have been pushed almost to the edge of homicidal rage by the incredible stupidity/arrogance shown by some locals here, and been brought almost to tears by the HUGE gifts of generosity, and compassion given me by others.
In no other part of the world have I walked into a store, merely to ask if the sales person knows where I might get a key cut nearby only to have that person hand me a helmet, and take me on his scooter four blocks down the road to the nearest locksmith, then have to forcefully dissuade him from PAYING for my new key!
But don’t get me started on the other stuff…
And we haven’t even yet begun to talk about what Taiwan’s Asia-Pac neighbors think of them… heh.
I can empathize with Namahottie. I have also been going through a fairly rough stage trying to decide where I want to be and coming to some difficult conclusions. Culture shock is truly a bitch.
I think I was fairly lucky. I went through the honeymoon stage my first two days here, the really low stage starting my third day (coincidentally, the first day I started working…go figure) where I spent the whole night crying because I had figured out that while I did have enough money to bump my flight up to the next day, I couldn’t live with the humiliation of giving up so easily. It lasted for a while although stage 3 kept creeping in. I would almost say, at the risk of being flamed by no_nutella, that I feel surrounded by a cultural bubble. My Mandarin has hit a plateau (or the world’s shallowest incline) and while I would like to learn more, I have no real intrinsic motivation to. I only speak Mandarin in business transactions or to my students (yeah, so shoot me), and despite what any picture of forumosa events might suggest, I really don’t have a lot of free time to socialize and get out into real Taiwan. For now, I am comfortable, but I anticipate that if I am to remain in Taiwan for another year (yes, yet another year), that my cultural bubble will be burst soon enough and I will start the whole culture shock process over. Que sera.
You’re safe. If I flamed you for stating how you feel in such an honest and inoffensive way I would certainly be the ass.
I certainly know the deal. In the west we don’t call it ‘face’, we call it by a number of names (including ‘covering yourself’, and ‘corporate tact’). It’s standard behaviour in the west, which is both approved by society and mandated by certain industries (such as the corporate sector).
Out Of Chaos,
I did not say the Taiwanese have a monopoly for the behaviour I describe. They only do it much more than other nations. Therefore they do not do other things so much which one may consider bad in the West.
I am not blaming Taiwanese people, I am just describing.
It is different, not worse or better.
But trying to make the people here same like Westernes will not help in understanding them. And I do not know what you mean by some
UHIUHUGHJV KHLJLIJI you put at the end of your post. I am not even interested. Your culture will be even different from mine and I do not want to decipher your stuff now. Still busy deciphering here. 
Yes, its just extremes.
I see this happening in each culture.
Funny how indirect Asians are though when trying to confront an issue, then how in your face their face saving tactics can be.
Must be very stressful from their side.
I just say I made a mistake.
One time I was in a board room meeting. I admitted an ommission rather than a mistake then the electrical engineer who was confronting me went all red, scrubbed his face then buried his head in his arms for a while.
He did this for me because I lost face in his eyes. I was already onto the next meeting point. We just got the job done.
That factory went under by the way. Through a classic face saving with a big USA company. If they had of just said "your right,“we will fix it” they would still be around.
Yes, its just extremes.
I see this happening in each culture.
Funny how indirect Asians are though when trying to confront an issue, then how in your face their face saving tactics can be.
Must be very stressful from their side.
I just say I made a mistake.
One time I was in a board room meeting. I admitted an ommission rather than a mistake then the electrical engineer who was confronting me went all red, scrubbed his face then buried his head in his arms for a while.
He did this for me because I lost face in his eyes. I was already onto the next meeting point. We just got the job done.
That factory went under by the way. Through a classic face saving with a big USA company. If they had of just said "your right,“we will fix it” they would still be around.[/quote]
This is exactly what I mean. I have almost no regrets about leaving my job in Australia, because it routinely requested of me unethical behaviour with which I refused to comply. I did my best with regard to communicating tactfully and with discretion, but I simply could not get used to the idea that I should be dishonest when ‘the situation required’. This naturally led to difficulties for me.
Such unethical behaviour is not only common in our society, but is well recognised, perfectly acceptable to most people, and is mandated by certain industries.
OK I tried to resist, but I can’t.
I’m not a young, impressionable, (perhaps) desperate English teacher. I’m 42, I’ve worked on EVERY BLOODY continent except North America. NOWHERE have (decent) people lied to me so much as in Taiwan.
I don’t care what you call it, in every blinking sense of the word, it’s LYING. When you distort the truth, you LIE!!!
My question is: Would it be acceptable for ME to LIE to the Taiwanese??? From what I’ve heard, THAT gets subscribed to “lying foreigners”! Oh woe is me!
Whatever the answer, it’s complete and utter BS and goes against the grain of everything moral.
Saving face? CRAP!!! You LIE, therefore you cannot be trusted!
It’s NOT a cultural thing. In Africa and South America, people without even a wriiten language do NOT lie to one another, and everybody else, on a regular basis!
But then, maybe that’s just a mirror. Of Taiwanese society, that is. Deny everything and you’re OK.
Deny that you’re in moral shite, deny that you’re politically lost, deny everything for the quick buck. Deny that you live in what would be called a “shit-hole” in honest societies. Your environment??? Fer gawds sake how can you call that fit to live in???
Bloody splendid. :fume: :fume: :fume: