Is this racism?

Discussion Open Forum
41

When I was about 11 years old, I heard Howard Cosell call Art Monk, one of the Redskins great receivers “a little monkey” after making a particularly acrobatic catch. I remember thinking “Ooohh, he’s in trouble.” While that was obviously racist, and Cosell paid dearly for it, it doesn’t seem to me that Limbaugh’s comments rose to the same level. Of course, what I think doesn’t mean jack. Really the only person whose opinion matters is Donovan McNabb. From what I read, he was just as upset that the other commentators, both black and white, on the show didn’t call Limbaugh on his remarks as he was about the comments themselves.

By the way Tigerman, what was it exactly that Jimmy the Greek said? All I can remember is something about black swimmers.

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[quote]To put it into what you jokingly call

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Jimmy the Greek may have been clumsy, but he was trying to explain, in his opinion, why black Americans were such good athletes.

The fact is, the African slaves that made it onto the slave ships were the best “specimens” that the slave traders could find… and of those, only the strongest survived what must have been an absolutely horrible voyage… and one of the many aspects of slavery in the US that made slavery so terrible there was that the slaves were indeed bred, and families were split apart.

This, IMO, differs from racism, because the determining distinguishing factor was not race, but rather good genes, … good genes through selection (original purchase in Africa), attrition (the horrible voyage across the ocean) and then selection again (breeding in America).

44

And for a Black perspective read Thomas Sowell’s comments at http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/ts20031003.shtml

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Limbaugh has been spouting ignorant stuff like this for years. The difference is that now with ESPN he is reaching a larger and more mainstream audience. Racism? Not really. Ignorant, absolutley. Worthy of all this band with? Not.

McNabb is a stud. Had he not been drafted earlier, he’d be on my FFL Roster.

Limbaugh, puleeeze. he lost it long ago. But even from jail on his dope bust, I’m sure we’ll all be hearing from him as his only redemming value is to stimulate a discussion, and he’d just as soon die as be shut up.

Chou

46

Right on sandman.

Although I never thought of it the way tigerman did, I think he’s probably punch drunk half the time and I guess that’s why he interpreted it that way.

47

I also disagree that there is an agreed upon definition of race.

My definition would be something like “Discrimination based on perceptions of race”, but then it comes down to defining ‘discrimination’ and defining ‘race’.

Start with ‘race’. Most people would agree that discriminating against certain ‘ethnic groups’ is racism, but what if I don’t liek a certain religious group (who all happen to be of one race). What if I’ve got nothing gainst Jews, but hate Israeli’s. Is being anti-Taiwanese racism.

Even tougher is discrimination. If I hire a white person because he tends to get on better with my other (white workers)? If I prefer Asian girls to western women? Some Afro-American writers have even written that racism is ‘predjudice plus power’ - that is ‘racism’ only comes from a position of dominance, so Blacks cannot be racist against Whites. Am I being racist in referring to Afro-Americans as Blacks, because that was the PC term while I was at uni and now I’m used to it? If I do so, or my grandma were to refer to someone as a negro, how would we be ‘discriminating’?

Brian

48

My relationship with my host family in London fell through because the wife could find no fault with using the term “n_gger brown”. She thought I was ridiculous for thinking it was offensive to say. I explained that it might not seem that offensive to her because she’s never been physically attacked by her peers while they chanted that slur. She must have thought it offensive though because she also said that she would never use that term around her black colleagues. I could have easily pointed out that the term in itself was racist…what was that term referring to originally? the color of someone’s skin. She tried to justify it by saying she wouldn’t be offended by being called a ‘honkey’. No, duh. No one’s ever thrown a rock at her back and shouted it at her. I could have called her a “f_cking b_tch” which wouldn’t have offended me very much, but I bet I’d be out on the street faster than a blink if I did.

Getting of that rant, I don’t think Rush’s comment could be construed as being racist, but I do think it was inappropriate for public commentary. If he’s on his program where people are in the same feeble mind-set as he, then so be it, but if he makes those comments on something listened to by the general public, then he should be reprimanded for it. I think the media reacted so strongly because he reminded them of the qb’s race whereas America wants to gloss over such issues and pretend that it’s all one happy rainbow of people when in reality there’s just a lot more covert racism than they want to admit.

49

ImaniOU,

That woman you stayed with sounds like she’s a complete moron.

As an aside, I found it interesting that Michael Irvin, a black ex-football player who was on the show that RL made the remark, agreed with RL’s remark. If RL’s comment had fit the definition of “racism”, i.e., had RL called into question an individual’s ability to play a certain position because of that individual’s race… then I can imagine that Michael Irvin would not have agreed with RL’s comment… because, as ImaniOU has pointed out… if you’re black (at least in the US), you will know racism when you encounter it.

You (other) guys can argue all you want about whether or not there is an agreed upon definition of “racism”… but for discussing real incidents, rather than theory, I think the dictionary definition is applicable and sufficient.

Bu, it doesn’t matter how you define “race”… once you have done so, the dictionary definition of “racism” could easily be applied.

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Bu, that IS basically the accepted definition of “racism”.

That wouldn’t necessarily fit the definition of racism… Unless your decision not to hire is based on a perception of the individual’s ability, which you base upon his/her race, your decision to discriminate was not based on racism… employers discriminate all the time… not always based on racism, sexism, etc…

That’s a tough one. But I don’t think so. 1) you may prefer them based on looks, but not attribute their ability or lack thereof to their looks, and 2) any actual difference between Asian females and western females could likely be explained by differing cultures rather than race.

Total bunk. But some people believe the Moon is made of green cheese… doesn’t make it so.

I don’t think its racist… the primary component of the definition of “racism” is the idea that an individual’s character and ability are a function of his/her race, and that individuals of one race have better character and higher ability than individuals of another race.

I realize that you focused on “discrimination”… but as I stated, not all discrimination is “racist” and not even all discrimination that involves a question of race is racist. For instance, what if I discriminated against a black man because I was concerned for his safety… what if the job involved a hazardous occupation, and I knew that all the other workers were racist white men? My decision to discriminate against the black man would not be a result of my perception that he as a black man could not do the job as well as a white man…

Racism may cause one to act in a certain way, such as by discriminating against someone… But not all discrimination is the result of racism, IMO.

51

Imaniou:

Here we must part company. I have never attacked a black person in my life but have been mugged repeatedly. I have also been made to feel very unwelcome in many neighborhoods in america and africa while never ever telling anyone black that they should go back where they belong or comment that “you’re not from around here is ya?” So yes, I think as a white person I know not about rocks but about guns and knives accompanying words like white asshole, the man, though never honkey, oh forgot white fuck and snow flake were used as well and the knives and guns and menacing four to five toughies made sure that those words were underlined so yes I understand and this was not in some pleasant social situation in London where it “reminded” me of something. It was there full force with fists and threats and where’s your money mutha fucka.

Then, let’s talk to some of my Asian friends who grew up or studied in NYC and California. The most racist students they dealt with were black so it goes both ways. They were constantly beat up and bullied by black students. Ask your Taiwanese friends and colleagues about their educational experiences in America and I guarantee you that if they faced racism it was not from whites but from blacks. Wanna bet? So let’s try to remember that racism is always bad and can happen in many different directions. Blacks are also equally guilty.

In fact, if you would like, we could sit down and go over the number of times that I have been threatened, robbed, mugged, burglared and nearly carjacked by blacks as well as minor things like sworn at or sneered at in black neighborhoods to compare who has been out racismed. Wanna get into that? Let’s not, but again to stress my point. Racism comes in many different directions and to my way of thinking blacks in America today are some of the worst. In addition, Blacks only have to accuse a white person of being racist to leave them speechless or facing criminal or job discipline. Does that work both ways? I think not.

freddy

52

And is THIS–the unthinking characterization of white people from middle America as human garbage–racism?

Maybe, but you know what? That’s okay with me. We don’t much like you either. Bring it on!

First of all, we have to decide what we mean by “racism.” I’m afraid the dictionaries won’t be of much help here.

Now we can either use the word “racism” to mean (a) a belief that (yadda yadda), or (b) a WRONG, EVIL belief that (yadda yadda).

If we choose (a), then one who believes (yadda yadda) ought to say, “Yes, I am a racist and proud of it.”

If we choose (b), then the same person ought to respond, “No, I am not a racist, because my beliefs are true.” So is truth a defense? (Unfortunately it is not in Germany or Canada, legally speaking.)

My own view is that there are many, many facts about the world which “anti-racists” are unwilling to accept. For example:

*Maya Angelou would never have gotten so much attention if she had been white.

*In the United States, blacks rape whites at least a hundred times more frequently than whites rape blacks–even though their share of the population is much lower.

*White IQ scores are, on average, higher than those of blacks. Inequality in other areas of life is a natural consequence.

Therefore I am a racist according to (a). This does not necessarily make me wicked, however. For that you need the addition of (b), which makes racism wicked by definition. Of course this sort of reasoning ought to strike us as suspicious.

Beyond belief, “racism” also makes us think of certain emotional responses or even behavior.

Is it “racist” to allow race to influence who we are happiest being around, who we go to bed with (either way!), or who we vote for in the California recall election?

Is it “racist” to dislike the smell or appearance of certain population groups? After all, nobody thinks I’m wicked for disliking Korean cuisine, or rap music. (Hmmm, on second thought that could be dangerous ground.)

Is it “racist” to form ethnically-based political groups which lobby for their own interests? (And does it matter WHICH ethnic groups?)

Is it “racist” to desire a homeland where your own ethnic group will reign supreme? (cough cough Israel cough cough)

So, enough with this liberal claptrap.

53

Freddy,
We now see where the root of your problems lie. Having grown up entirely in the south where the population of blacks to whites is relatively equal, I’ll say that I have never personally experienced racism, attacks, or muggings. On the contrary to many people’s beliefs, the south is not nearly as racist as other parts of the US. In fact, up there with driving on freeways, I miss the black population the most about living here in homogeneous Taiwan.
I have experienced racism in San Francisco US however, but from the Korean community who’re wound up tight as a drum, for some odd reason.
Screaming Jesus, I’m finding it difficult to make sense of your post. If you have somehow disguised your own sentiments, I would deem many of your remarks objectionable for this forum and would toss them in the flames. I beg others in this community to please make their feelings known on this matter.

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Alien, I have not “disguised” anything, though I have simplified my very convoluted views. If you really want more details, just ask.

No foreigner can live here and NOT have conflicted views about human diversity, I think. Whether that conflict is allowed to rise to the conscious level, is another matter.

My point is partly a logical one about terminology (is “racism” evil by definition?), and partly an espousal of a few (probably true) observations that are often considered “racist.” Biting the bullet, so to speak. I recognize that the topic is unavoidably volatile, but then, so is our society.

55

Slate: “Rush Limbaugh Was Right: Donovan McNabb isn’t a great quarterback, and the media do overrate him because he is black.”

Notice how the author of the piece actually knows something about football as opposed to most of the goofballs here who judge Limbaugh’s remarks without the slightest knowledge of whether what he said is really true or not.

And Slate is hardly what we might call a bastion of conservatism.

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I don’t find Screaming Jesus’s remarks objectionable.

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I don’t find Screaming Jesus’ comments objectionable either, and give credit to him for bringing up real-world issues that underlie people’s perceptions of what is or is not racism.

He and others have pointed out that racism is not absolutely identifiable, but is something that all cultures and individuals may “see” in different degrees. The dictionary also cannot give an adequate definition of racism as dictionaries can, at best, only suggest denotative meaning.

As I mentioned in another thread, what others here call the “agreed upon definition of racism” is only that demarcated by the laws of a nation.

58

[quote]*In the United States, blacks rape whites at least a hundred times more frequently than whites rape blacks–even though their share of the population is much lower.

*White IQ scores are, on average, higher than those of blacks. Inequality in other areas of life is a natural consequence.
[/quote]

Any proof?

I doubt it.

Statements can be true and still racist.

“A black man went crazy in the mall last night and shot down 15 shoppers”
“A man went crazy in the mall lasyt night and shot down 15 shoppers”

Which one is racist?

Brian

59

[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]*In the United States, blacks rape whites at least a hundred times more frequently than whites rape blacks–even though their share of the population is much lower.

*White IQ scores are, on average, higher than those of blacks. Inequality in other areas of life is a natural consequence.
[/quote]

Any proof?

I doubt it.[/quote]

Jensen, Murray, Herrnstein, etc. The study of race and I.Q. scores is well-documented if not completely understood.

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]Statements can be true and still racist.

“A black man went crazy in the mall last night and shot down 15 shoppers”
“A man went crazy in the mall lasyt night and shot down 15 shoppers”

Which one is racist?

Brian[/quote]

Neither one is racist. The first one, however, if true, is more informative.

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This was his opinion, whether he was right or not is irrelevant to whether his opinion was racist.

These conservative commentators would never miss a chance to attack the “liberal media.” This was not a Jimmy the Greek or a Cosell foot in mouth. He knew what the reaction would be to what he said.

Anyway, what he said is not racist because Mcnabb thought it was. What does that mean? If Mcnabb decides tomorrow that I am racist, should I go out and get a swatstika tattoo? I can’t see how what he said was racist from an objective standpoint, and no one above has been able to show how it could be.

There are different ideas of racism, the main difference was outlined above, anybody can be racist vs only oppressed peoples can understand racism. I can accept this but we must deal with this as two seperate concepts. Not to get into the right or wrong of either, but I hardly see how Limbaugh’s comments could be classified as racist under the latter definition either, Limbaugh was not using his position of “power” to deny any type of right to Mcnabb, he was merely stating his opinion.

There was a racial aspect to that opinion, but I can’t see how there was any negative connotation for black people. He was talking about one black man, Mcnabb, and not how his race affected not his skill or any other aspect of his person, but only the perception of it by the media. This could be right or wrong, and he could in fact be racist or not, but I don’t find the comment to be racist.

But certainly bizarre. I don’t think the sports media sits around in back rooms plotting how to advance the career of black quarterbacks. If he gets more publicity, and I have to admit I have hardly watched a game since I came to Taiwan and wouldn’t know Mcnabb if he came up and asked me where the Taipei zoo was, I’m sure it’s because as a black NFL quarterback, even a just decent one, he is automatically a rather unique person bound to get a lot of attention. Think of all the attention a white boxer gets.