Islam Will Win!

[jdsmith]

[quote=“spook”]Common sense, eh, as in “that was then, this is now” or . . . ?

It’s a bit of a problem, no? How do we convince someone else it’s nuts to follow the letter of their revealed scripture to the bitter end when we’re not quite sure how to explain why we’ve jettisoned whole sections of God’s word ourselves.[/quote]

“We” don’t have to convince ALL muslims spook. Just the ones who feel the need to blow shit up when things don’t go their way.

And why the hell do “we” have to explain why “we” changed? Maybe we could say “IT’S JUST A BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!!!”

[Gao_Bohan]

@TheGingerMan

But isn’t that a matter of jurispudence? I.E. interpretation by local courts? The result will differ from region to region, but it would be interesting to study how the close proximity of an established society ruled by Sharia deals with an active pagan community. Africa would seem like an a case in point.

Yup, it’s a matter of jurisprudence. You obviously know a lot about the Sharia too so there’s no point in going into detail.

In any event, I would posit that the whole principle of dhimmi seems to lend itself to regional “interpretation”. As a political tool, it must be invaluable in maintaining the stability of any Sharia regime. Divide, & Rule.

I agree completely.

[Gao_Bohan]

@TheGingerMan

It’s only BECAUSE i have read & re-read the Qur’an that I truly realize how I don’t want an Islamic government ANYwhere near me.

Same here.

[quote]The whole point is that Jewish & Christian history have suffered what is commonly called The Enlightenment. Throw in some Renaissance, division of church & state, civil law, and Heck, Why Not?: Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

Under Islam There Has Been No Such Thing. Not yet anyway. And not anytime soon.[/quote]

You hit the nail on the head.

[Mother_Theresa]

[quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]
It’s only BECAUSE i have read & re-read the Qur’an that I truly realize how I don’t want an Islamic government ANYwhere near me.
[/quote]

Same here.[/quote]

Perhaps they feel the same way about your religion and your government. What happened to love thy neighbor?

[quote][quote]The whole point is that Jewish & Christian history have suffered what is commonly called The Enlightenment. Throw in some Renaissance, division of church & state, civil law, and Heck, Why Not?: Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

Under Islam There Has Been No Such Thing. Not yet anyway. And not anytime soon.[/quote]
You hit the nail on the head.[/quote]

Ah, so your religion is enlightened and theirs isn’t. Your religion is right and theirs is wrong. Yours is good and theirs is evil. Is that it?

[Hobbes]

[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]
…I don’t want an Islamic government…[/quote]

Same here.[/quote]

Perhaps they feel the same way about your religion and your government. What happened to love thy neighbor?

[quote][quote]…division of church & state…
Under Islam There Has Been No Such Thing.[/quote]
You hit the nail on the head.[/quote]

Ah, so your religion is enlightened and theirs isn’t. Your religion is right and theirs is wrong. Yours is good and theirs is evil. Is that it?[/quote]

Oh c’mon, MT. This is getting very close to trolling.

It wouldn’t be trolling if you were not such a sharp guy. But because you are, it is very hard to believe that you aren’t inentionally pretending to be dumb just to get a reaction out of them.

They said they didn’t want an Islamic government. They said that the west has a greater separation between church and state (not as great as some would like, but still enormous compared to modern Islam).

Do you really think that they would support a 10th Century style “Christian government” stoning people to death for shaving their beards or working on a Sunday? Do you really think they want the Spanish Insquisition coming back to torture members of other faiths and burn women as witches?

It is very clear what their objections are. And it is very obvious that they would have the same objections if it were a contemporary “Christian government” that was sentencing people to death for converting from Christianity to Islam.

I happen to know that you approve of the separation of church and state as well (you’ve written elequently and persuasively about it many times). They are agreeing with you. So this juvenile taunting mischaracterization is all the more disappointing. :s

[Mother_Theresa]

Thanks for the support, Hobbes. But I wasn’t only trying to get a rise out of them. I honestly feel there has been substantial distasteful and inappropriate muslim-bashing in this forum and other public forums over the past few years. To a certain extent it may seem understandable. After all, it’s indisputable that (aside from the role played by the US), most of the fanatics who have blown up sacred sites, innocent civilians and themselves in recent years have been muslims, including those who crashed the planes into the Twin Towers, leading to the sudden acceleration of Christian-Muslim warfare.

But it’s unfair to portray all muslims as crazy, misogynistic, fanatical terrorists. I have no doubt that millions of muslims are kind, gentle, decent people and denying that is not only wrong and un-Christian but is harmful. The world needs less prejudice and divisiveness, not more. Christians, in particular, who profess to rever the teachings of Jesus, for whom love and compassion were paramount virtues, should try to avoid writing off a third of the world’s population (or whatever) as evil losers.

I’m not denying that fanatical muslims exist. I’m just denying that all muslims are crazed fanatics, which is apparently the position being made by several posters. There are good Christians and bad Christians, good Jews and bad Jews, and good Muslims and bad Muslims. That’s all I’m saying.

[TheGingerMan]

[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“gao_bo_han”][quote=“TheGingerMan”]
It’s only BECAUSE i have read & re-read the Qur’an that I truly realize how I don’t want an Islamic government ANYwhere near me.
[/quote]

Same here.[/quote]

Perhaps they feel the same way about your religion and your government. What happened to love thy neighbor?

[quote][quote]The whole point is that Jewish & Christian history have suffered what is commonly called The Enlightenment. Throw in some Renaissance, division of church & state, civil law, and Heck, Why Not?: Innocent Until Proven Guilty.

Under Islam There Has Been No Such Thing. Not yet anyway. And not anytime soon.[/quote]
You hit the nail on the head.[/quote]

Ah, so your religion is enlightened and theirs isn’t. Your religion is right and theirs is wrong. Yours is good and theirs is evil. Is that it?[/quote]

1. I’m not religious at ALL. It’s not my bag. I consider organized religion as poltics by another means. If that is Evil, fine.
2. My comments are directed at the application of politics under Islamic societies, as embodied by Sharia. I’m not insulting Allah, or His Prophets, or people’s dedication to the same.
3. If your looking for a rise outta me, you’ll have to do better than that. Try a little tenderness, whydon’cha?

[Gao_Bohan]

Thanks Hobbes.

[Taiwanlight_Zone]

Europe should abandon democracy at once, and revert to rule by benevolent despot (=royalty). [quote]

You think European Royals were/are benevolent? At best they threw a few crumbs to the rest of us and spent a lot of time and money in propaganda telling us us they were so benevolent.

[fred_smith]

[quote]Thanks for the support, Hobbes. But I wasn’t only trying to get a rise out of them. I honestly feel there has been substantial distasteful and inappropriate muslim-bashing in this forum and other public forums over the past few years. To a certain extent it may seem understandable. After all, it’s indisputable that (aside from the role played by the US), most of the fanatics who have blown up sacred sites, innocent civilians and themselves in recent years have been muslims, including those who crashed the planes into the Twin Towers, leading to the sudden acceleration of Christian-Muslim warfare.

But it’s unfair to portray all muslims as crazy, misogynistic, fanatical terrorists. I have no doubt that millions of muslims are kind, gentle, decent people and denying that is not only wrong and un-Christian but is harmful. The world needs less prejudice and divisiveness, not more. Christians, in particular, who profess to rever the teachings of Jesus, for whom love and compassion were paramount virtues, should try to avoid writing off a third of the world’s population (or whatever) as evil losers.

I’m not denying that fanatical muslims exist. I’m just denying that all muslims are crazed fanatics, which is apparently the position being made by several posters. There are good Christians and bad Christians, good Jews and bad Jews, and good Muslims and bad Muslims. That’s all I’m saying.[/quote]

Bullshit.

Simple questions. Do you believe that women have rights? Yes or no. Do you believe that people have human rights that should be protected? yes or no. Do you believe that is acceptable to use terrorism to further your political aims? yes or no. Do you believe that gays have rights? yes or no. Do you believe that everyone should have the right to vote? yes or no. Do you believe that everyone has a right to an education? yes or no. Do you believe in freedom of the press? religion? assembly? yes or no. Do you believe in international law? yes or no. Point of clarification. I am not saying I believe in international law, I am merely asking. Then punch your little questions into a data sheet and then use that to objectively measure who is doing what and how well. It can be done because the UN does a report on this every year as do the Human Rights Watch among many many many many others and what do you suppose we will find?

It would be more helpful if certain posters spent more time rallying behind universals such as those outlined above rather than defending in their Carteresque attempts to look benevolent and caring the very regimes that deny their citizens so many of the rights mentioned above out of some misguided and ludicrously stupid vanity about appearing “fair, broadminded and just.” Reread the above rights, and then OBJECTIVELY look at who is doing well and who is not. It is not a question of Moral Relativism. These can and have been rated and we know the answers. Why pretend that we do not?

Sorry, must run. Back again around April 19.

Fred

[Okami]

Dear Fred,

Spread out the questions very difficult for me to read

Dear Hobbes,

Do you really think that they would support a 10th Century style “Christian government” stoning people to death for shaving their beards or working on a Sunday? Do you really think they want the Spanish Insquisition coming back to torture members of other faiths and burn women as witches?

I take great offense at this and call Unintentional Catholic Bashing on you.

The most sophisticated courts at that time were the church courts, which were more concerned with saving souls(unfortunately) rather then burning or stoning people. The death penalty was given out only 1% of the time in Spanish inquisitorial courts and you did have people blatantly blasphemy in order to get put in front of them instead of the local lord. The local lord often be an illiterate savage only concerned with sating the masses(republicans?) ignorant superstitions. I would thank you greatly if you would change the wording to a more appropriate gentler way.

Cheers,
Okami

[Comrade_Stalin]

@Mother Theresa

What happened to love thy neighbor?

That’s not in the Koran, is it?

@Mother Theresa

Ah, so your religion is enlightened and theirs isn’t. Your religion is right and theirs is wrong. Yours is good and theirs is evil. Is that it?

I suggest you take a 6 month break and go live in in “moderate” Indonesia…Klaten, in Central Java is nice. You could use a brush with Reality every now and then.

Bali Bomber Amrozi and Indonesian police

[Hobbes]

[quote=“Okami”]Dear Hobbes,

Do you really think that they would support a 10th Century style “Christian government” stoning people to death for shaving their beards or working on a Sunday? Do you really think they want the Spanish Insquisition coming back to torture members of other faiths and burn women as witches?

I take great offense at this and call Unintentional Catholic Bashing on you.

The most sophisticated courts at that time were the church courts, which were more concerned with saving souls(unfortunately) rather then burning or stoning people. The death penalty was given out only 1% of the time in Spanish inquisitorial courts and you did have people blatantly blasphemy in order to get put in front of them instead of the local lord. The local lord often be an illiterate savage only concerned with sating the masses(republicans?) ignorant superstitions. I would thank you greatly if you would change the wording to a more appropriate gentler way.

Cheers,
Okami[/quote]

I would be happy to rephrase, Okami. No intent to bash anyone, on my part.

My point was that putting people to death for converting to a different religion is a concept that most of us would feel is wrong regardless of who is doing it. We oppose it when Islamic governments do it, and we’d oppose it if it a Christian government were to do it. My reference to the Spanish inquisition was an attempt to provide an example on the Christian side. Maybe I could have picked a better example – I certainly don’t claim to be an expert on the subject. If you say they only killed 1%, then I’ll take your word for it. (Note: 1% is still too many, if you ask me – but I do see your point.)

Cheers,
H

[Huang_Guang_Chen]

“F— you! Go to hell, mate”

Ah, justice is served and pandering to cultural rights to rape and abuse have failed. A small victory in an ongoing war. I particularly like the Australian habit of adding “mate” after fuck you!

HG

Tegan tells her rapists: Go to hell

[quote]TEGAN WAGNER was a frightened, innocent 14-year-old girl when she fell prey to the notorious Pakistani gang-rapist brothers. That was four years ago.

The shy child in the police videos has grown into a strong, brave and defiant young woman, and yesterday she declared “I won” when her attackers were sentenced. It was the final chapter of a drawn-out battle for justice for at least six girls.

As the eldest brother, identified only as MSK, stared her down and repeatedly mouthed “I’m sorry” from the dock of the NSW Supreme Court, Ms Wagner laughed and gave him the finger. When the court adjourned, she stood up, faced him and said: “F— you! Go to hell, mate.”

“I’ve been waiting four years to do that,” she said. Now 18, Ms Wagner then took the extraordinary step of allowing her identity to be made public. Outside court, she said: “I’d like to say, have fun in prison, boys. I won.”

The brothers, particularly MSK, had pulled out all stops to avoid justice. They said they were Muslim and so would be denied a fair trial. They claimed media publicity was prejudicial. And they repeatedly sacked their barristers.

MSK pretended to be mentally ill, and jumped the dock and threw broken glass at the victims’ families. He later admitted to all the rapes at his sentencing hearing, but invented more excuses: he blamed his victims for being “promiscuous” and his “strict cultural background”, even that “Satanic voices” made him do it.[/quote]

[ImaniOU]

Hasn’t anyone ever thought of the real reason why Europe and America has much lower birth rates than those in Muslim countries?

Because we have better porn.

(and on that note, ImaniOU’s brief cameo in the IP forum is over.)

[Comrade_Stalin]

[quote=“ImaniOU”]Hasn’t anyone ever thought of the real reason why Europe and America has much lower birth rates than those in Muslim countries?

Because we have better porn.[/quote]

Did someone say “camel toe”?

[bob_honest]

[quote=“ImaniOU”]Hasn’t anyone ever thought of the real reason why Europe and America has much lower birth rates than those in Muslim countries?

Because we have better porn.

(and on that note, ImaniOU’s brief cameo in the IP forum is over.)[/quote]

Now you give me something to think about.

US birthrate: 2.0+ ,
German birthrate 1.3

Hmmmm… US has Summer Cummings, but we have this [ups, of course I do not know her name ]

Na… it is religion. Religious people marry and have children, others have fun and a BMW and stuff.

[mod_lang]

That’s a funny quote, but the real reason is that we have access to better birth control in the West (access to birth control, period). Also, women have rights in West, and have the choice to not live a life as nothing but baby machines (a choice women do not have in most Muslim countries). Combine those two - women in the West have access to birth control and the right to use it. They have neither in the Muslim world.

[MikeN]

@mod lang

That’s a funny quote, but the real reason is that we have access to better birth control in the West (access to birth control, period). Also, women have rights in West, and have the choice to not live a life as nothing but baby machines (a choice women do not have in most Muslim countries). Combine those two - women in the West have access to birth control and the right to use it. They have neither in the Muslim world.

And of course Christian rightists are trying to restrict birth control and women’s rights. Fundies of a feather…

[Bodo]

@MikeN

[quote=“mod lang”]That’s a funny quote, but the real reason is that we have access to better birth control in the West (access to birth control, period). Also, women have rights in West, and have the choice to not live a life as nothing but baby machines (a choice women do not have in most Muslim countries). Combine those two - women in the West have access to birth control and the right to use it. They have neither in the Muslim world.

And of course Christian rightists are trying to restrict birth control and women’s rights. Fundies of a feather…[/quote]

Agreed.

Here’s some info on sex ed, birth control . . .

[quote][url=Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health]Changing Emphases in Sexuality Education In U.S. Public Secondary Schools, 1988-1999 [html] [pdf]
Jacqueline E. Darroch, David J. Landry and Susheela Singh

Sexuality Education in Fifth and Sixth Grades in U.S. Public Schools, 1999 [html] [pdf]
David J. Landry, Susheela Singh and Jacqueline E. Darroch

Adolescents’ Reports of Reproductive Health Education, 1988 and 1995 [html] [pdf]
Laura Duberstein Lindberg, Leighton Ku and Freya Sonenstein

Using Randomized Designs to Evaluate Client-Centered Programs to Prevent Adolescent Pregnancy [html] [pdf]
Dennis McBride and Anne Gienapp

Long-Term Outcomes of an Abstinence-Based, Small-Group Pregnancy Prevention Program In New York City Schools [html] [pdf]
Lisa D. Lieberman, Heather Gray, Megan Wier, Renee Fiorentino and Patricia Maloney

Conducting Adolescent Sexuality Research in Schools: Lessons Learned [html] [pdf]
Lynn Blinn-Pike, Thomas Berger and Melinda Rea-Holloway

Sexuality Education: Our Current Status, and an Agenda for 2010 [html] [pdf]
Susan N. Wilson

Forum: Can the Mass Media Be Healthy Sex Educators? [html] [pdf]
Jane D. Brown and Sarah N. Keller

Forum: Teenagers Educating Teenagers About Reproductive Health and Their Rights to Confidential Care [html]
Katy Yanda

Forum: No Sexuality Education Is Sexuality Education [html]
Stanley Snegroff[/url][/quote]

The real issue for policy is whether sex education programs can be made more effective. Advocates argue that such programs would be more effective if they were “comprehensive”; that is, if they encouraged young people to avoid premature sexual activity and to explore their values and build self-esteem; if they addressed peer pressure; if they provided age-appropriate information about pregnancy, contraception, and STDs; and if they instilled the motivation to avoid pregnancy and prepare for future life. As of 1995, few states required such comprehensive programs. No one knows what effect those programs have had or could have on adolescent sexual behaviors. The few evaluations of programs containing elements of a comprehensive approach have shown mixed results in terms of delaying sex or decreasing rates of pregnancy or STDs.

Lot’s of stuff on the web about how abstinence only strategies are NOT effective in the long run, but combined with comprehensive sex ed, the combo is the best intervention to date.

Of course, right wingers don’t want to hear that. . . .

Bodo