Israel & Palestine

Dayem, but that’s a messy part of the world. You got your suicide bombers, your rock throwing kids, your bulldozer-happy soldiers, settlers lookin’ for lebensraum and Hezbollah Gorillas that want to teach Israelis how to swim. (They even offered to drive them to the sea - How thoughtful!) Can the problem be solved? Probably not. But I figure a good start would be for Israel to stop building new settlements in the West Bank, and eventuially to abandon some of the ones that they have already built. Maybe stop using the Old Testament as a basis for their Manifest Destiny would be a nice touch. Since the Israeli gov’t is the authority, the onus is on them to create conditions for peace. Rock throwing kids aren’t organized enough to stop, suicide bombers are too wild-eyed to calm down and gorillas? Well, the silverback alpha males probably need to be neutered. Then maybe the rest will quiet down. It’s just too bad that the rest of the world lets Israel get away with apartheid just because Jews have had a history of being oppressed themselves. Makes the Taiwan - China problem look simple by comparison. :?

Roger that. Annette good, Israel bad.

There has been discussion in the press for many years that the Palestinians want to set up their own country. What I don’t understand is: What is the current nationality of these Palestinians? What passports do they carry? Surely they have some nationality; I can’t really believe they are stateless.

I think it sucks that the US gives so much money to Israel, only to have them turn their country into a middle east version of South Africa. My question is, how long can we be fooled by the pro-Israel lobby in the US. Every year more houses for settlers are built on land that has contentious ownership. But, once the houses are built, palestinian claims to the houses are gone forever. And then they want Arafat to rein in his terrorists, but still blow up all of his police stations. What’s the point in that? It makes me sick, it really does. I support Israel’s right to exist, but only if it gives equal rights to everyone living under its flag. That isn’t happening now. Something needs to change. :?

I feel the same way as many of the posters above. But this is not an issue I can talk about in “polite society” back in the US, since I seem to know an awful lot of people who feel the exact opposite (basically, that Israel is entirely justified in doing what they are doing). My question is: do people feel that the media is particularly biased one way or the other? Sometimes I watch CNN or one of the other US based news channels and feel that it is particularly sympathetic towards the Israelies and I don’t know if anyone else out there feels the same way. :expressionless:

I have a friend of a friend, Greg, who is working as a volunteer for Christian Peacemaker Teams in Hebron. According to the blurb on the internet,

"Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) is an organization committed to reducing violence by “Getting in the Way”

That is because of the influence of the pro-Israel lobbyists in the US.
CNN is the White House propaganda machine, and are always willing to present the story in a way that leans to the US.

The problem in the Middle East is while the Pro-Israel faction have gotten together, the Muslims are always squabbling among themselves and cannot unit under one flag. Instead they are split into small groups independently calling for this and this.

The only way the US and Israel will address them seriously and make concessions to them, is if they use the most powerful bargaining chip - money. In the Middle East they have oil and money, while their brothers in Palestine and are throwing rocks and other factions are blowing up innocent people.

Instead of Hamas blowing up people, maybe Hamas, the PLO, the Judean People’s popular front, the People’s Popular Front Of Judea( the last two groups are not real, I inserted them to demonstrate how factioned and chaotic groups in the Middle East are) should be paying a visit to their fellow Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Iraq. These countries are always talking about Islam and Allah, then why can’t they unite under Islam, and try to constructively help eachother in the Middle East and help the world.
They have money and oil equating to influence

That is only thing I have noticed about the Middle East, if Israel or the US bombs some place, the Muslims are crying out that it is some injustice against the Muslim people. Instead of doing this, why don’t they all get together and be a bit more proactive in fixing things.
Maybe many of these Hama type groups feel betrayed by other Muslim people and governments, and while it is no justification for what they are doing, maybe it is a reason for them doing such desperate acts.

As regards Israel’s tactics, people may agree or disagree with their tactics, but as the saying goes"give em an inch and he’ll take a mile". As long as there is no force to counteract their expansion, then it is going to keep happening, no matter how many people frown and complain about it.

If I knew of anything that Israel made, I’d boycott it. Israel blows.

I’ve often heard people say they felt CNN had an anti-Israel bias, but I’ve also heard the opposite. Without knowing all the facts, it’s hard to say whether either view is correct.

Israel makes weapons. Top-notch weapons utilising the latest American based technology. Weapons they export to the PRC, among other “Rogue” nations. In addition to the world famous UZI, Galil and other small arms, Israel is well known for their high-tech weapons systems and they are a major player on the world arms market. I don’t know if Israel makes anything else.

Israel is a pretty big manufacturer of intimate apparel and hosiery (I know, go figure). I believe that much of Victoria Secret’s nylon products are made in Israel.

I heard on TV last night that in the 10 years since the Oslo accord, where the Israelis agreed to stop new settlements in the West Bank, the number of new settlements has in fact more than doubled. It seems like Israel is happy to abide by UN rulings, e.g. like when they’re given a country, but then not too happy when they get criticized by same for running it like a gestapo state.

:x It seems Ben ya meen Ne ten yahoo wants to make boat people out of the Palestinians and ship them off to Libya. I’m not sure if Mow a mar would appreciate that or not. I’m wondering if Ya sir really has much power or if others are running that show. Seems like total chaos at this point. At any rate, an eye for an eye definitely is not conducive to a peace process. My question is, if the guys are promised a bunch of virgins for blowing themselves up, what are the gals promised–full emancipation or a manless society? :imp:

And they sold heaps of those weapons to apartheid-era South Africa, and (it is said) cooperated with South Africa to develop nuclear weapons.

Sorry but I have to disagree with your logic here. This argument is the same one that the US is using in it’s “war” on terrorism. The logic is as follows.

  1. In country ‘A’ terrorists have targeted civilians.
  2. The act is reprehensible and ‘they’ (who are already dead mind you) must pay.
    3)So to ensure that no more terrorist attacks are committed against us we will go in and target the terrorists country of origin. (that’ll show 'em)
  3. civilian casualties that we cause will be ‘unintentional’, ‘regretable’ and ‘unavoidable’ consequences of the “WAR”.

What war? I thought we just said there wasn’t a war. There is a war only in name, and even then it is only used when describing the ‘retaliation’ of America or Israel.Terrorist aren’t fighting a war against the US or Israel are they? I thought they were just madmen rushing around commiting “unspeakable acts of cruelty” born out of their deep hatred for life, liberty and anything else good you can name.

Don’t get me wrong on any of this. Terrorists bombing people sitting around in cafes, sucks big time in any context. Though we do have to realize that the people who commit these acts are lunatics or brainwashed or %***cked up or whatever- they’re not playing any part in any rational dialogue that is going to solve these problems. Going in and ‘punishing’ the Palestinian authority just helps create more lunatics.

Regardless about what we (or I think) about the principles that Israel was founded on, the fact is that they are and have been there for a while now. So they’re not going anywhere, and neither are the Palestinians.
My main point is that we can’t sit around and talk about how detestable those terrorist acts are (though they are just that) and then in the same breath talk about the unfortunate circumstances that compel us (the Us or Israel) to commit the same acts (often on a larger scale).

The whole, " but unfortunately, such is the nature of a war." argument attempts to legitimize state-sponsored terrorism. It’s as though we are somehow better than the terrorists because we can feign a tear and whimper about how regrettable that ‘collateral damage’ is an unavoidable aspect of ‘legitimate war.’
If Israel (or the US for that matter) were pusuing some plan that would actually stand any chance of reducing terrorist attacks then I might even support them in their endevour, though this is clearly not the case and I fear not even their intention.

Sorry I have to say one more thing. Who cares if Sharon was democratically elected, so was Hitler.

I didn’t mean to knck you too hard because yer obviously no zealot but your inability to understand why someone would have an anti-israel sentiment causes me to think you are getting to much “News” and not enough “Analysis.”

P.S. I have a funny satirical piece written by Terry Jones of Monty Python called “bombing for peace” that does a much funnier (and perhaps effective) rebuke of this faulty approach to ensuring safety from terrorism.(if you want it)

Peace in the middle east

It’s precisely because I’m liberal that I’m anti-Israeli. Here’s a nation that occupies territories, prevents elections, assassinates people without a fair trial, turns a blind eye to injustices committed by Jewish settlers, and bulldozes homes of Palestinians in “collective punishment” - the payment of sins by many for the few.

Until they reopen Palestinian schools and universities, allow Palestinians free movement in their own land, grant to the Palestinians rights equal to and above those given to the immigrant settlers, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, and freedom to self-determinination, then they ARE just another South Africa. Maybe worse. :shock:

I agree that Israeli needs to end its injustices to Palestinians. I think there are homeless people in my own country (US) that could use the funds being sent to Jews in Israel. Give me a few reasons why my WASP family’s hard-earned tax dollars need to go to Israel.

Israelis make most of their money from making weapons? Well, they certainly aren’t putting food on their plates from selling tickets to the Dead Sea or royalties from the disco-singing drag queen that had a record out a few years ago.

The suicide bomber thing is also pretty lame. What are they going to do, keep strapping explosives to themselves until the last one’s gone? Keep killing more people who were simply taking their kids for a stroll or out for a cup of coffee?

Cut it out, both of you.

On the night of the 921 attacks, I commented to a US visitor, I wonder if any of this would have happened if what's-his-name hadn't been elected.'' The uninformed US visitor said: I don’t think Bush’s election had anything to do with this.’’

I of course was referring to Sharon.

I’m sick of how the US continues to support Israel, no matter how murderous they become, and the US is forced to pay for that support with the lives of innocent Americans. Terrorist attacks on Americans will continue, precisely because of unwavering US support for Israel.

I think both sides need to take a few steps back. If the US were the ``honest broker’’ of peace that it says it is, it would swiftly condemn both sides. Otherwise the world, and rightly so, will continue to see the US as unjustly favoring the Israelis over the Palestinians and see it as an obstacle, not a facilitator, of peace.

Wow, I just want to say that i’m really impressed with the level of insight and the well thought out dialogue on this thread. I’ve been getting too much news. I’ve been just assuming that I’m basically the only white guy around who is sickened and disgusted by what Israel has done and continues to do to the Palestinians. It reminds me so much of the situation and treatment that the natives in N. America have undergone for centuries now. It’s nice to know that my developing stereotype of 99% of all white westerners as just being insulated hard-core conservative wackos who are bent on world domination at the expense of the lives of whatever brown people that stand “in their way” may not necessarily be all that justified.


It’s refreshing to see that there are people who have not put blinders on to the plight of the Palestinians because of what 19 men decided to do back in September. Neither group is right, but one group has home-made bombs and rocks as weapons. The other has tanks, machine guns, and artillery shells. A little lopsided in my humble. Shalom and Salaam. There’s a reason they are very similar greetings, both meaning peace. Let’s hope the Palestinians and Israelis also realize this similarity before it’s too late and there’s no one left to say them.