Just saw on the news that the driver of the van has been caught. The guy turned out to be a wanted felon. Claimed that he was suffering from lack of sleep when he hit the scooter. :ohreally: How could one be doing over 100 km/hr when dozing off? The vehicle should be slowing down rather than going at full speed. This guy should be locked up for a long long time.
In Taiwan, that probably counts as a good excuse. Iâm told (back in the bad old days) being drunk was a valid legal defense - can anyone confirm this?
tommy525, you grew up here. Can you explain to us foreigners exactly why, when anyone suggests that things would get better if people followed the traffic laws, one of two things will happen:
a) The listener gets violently angry and suggest that the speaker should get the fuck out of Taiwan if he/she doesnât like it (of course Iâm excluding the sort of supercilious approach that would get you that response in any culture);
b) They shrug and smile and say, well, this is Taiwan, and if you follow the rules youâll get squashed - so itâs best if you donât follow the rules.
Iâm especially baffled by (b). Taiwan does have a highway code, of sorts, but nobody ever reads it. So thereâs a sort of urban mythology thatâs taken on a life of its own - people are convinced that thereâs a set of homespun rules that are, in fact, nothing more than a figment of the publicâs collective imagination.
I take an unpopular opinion, so I know many will disagree howeverâŚ
I have no problems with the way traffic is here. Yes, there are a lot of knobs behind the wheel in general, however I find that defensive driving resolves almost 99% of possible collisions.
Case in point, many people complain about others running red lights. The obvious solution is to simply wait on the throttle for a few seconds when the light turns green. Its not that difficult, however you might have to wait a few extra seconds.
In the case of this accident, the goon who did this should be hit with life in prison or death, no question. However, as they teach when I took the course in Canada for motorcycle, always check the mirrors regularly. Then you can detect the Taike coming up behind you at high speed and avoid him. I donât know the complete circumstances of this crash if it could have been avoided by the victim or not, but generally speaking, accidents can be prevented by being well aware of what is around you instead of incessantly complaining about others driving, mind your own driving instead.
A passenger ban would not solve this problem, because as you see, there was 3 people on that scooter, which was already illegal but that didnât stop the driver, did it?
One last thing that happened on Sunday which made me shake my head. Two cops were on scooters coming up to a red light. Some knob turned in front of them without looking. I was waiting to see the fool get pulled over, but no, the cops looked at each other and ignored him. The same knob then made an illegal red light right turn in front of them, and I thought for sure the cops would do something now, but no, they sat there at the light talking to each other. A minute later, a guy with his girlfriend pulls up to the light with an expired sticker, and both cops told the guy to pull over while they pulled out their ticket book to bust him for being so unsafe :fume:
Back in the ol country, they dod set the law that motorcycles couldnât carry passengers. The reason was not accidents, but that they were used by hitmen working in tandem -you drive, I shoot.
People pack kids like sardines on scooters because âthere is no other wayâ. It is a matter of resources and time constraints. They are not âlazyâ saving time and money, but in many parts of the island, there is simply no public transportation or it is simply ânot convenientâ. Mama works 14 hours a day, picks up tired kids at buxiban at 10 pm, no money for a car, everyoneâs hungry and tired, what do they do: pile up in a scooter. That is my neighbor upstairs and downstairs and sideways. I agree it is unsafe and I agree Iâd rather not see it. At least, one wishes proper headwear should be enforced. But that is going to be difficult to change, as what we need to change is not only the behaviour but the conditions that spark the behaviour.
In the meantime, I suggest what we could do is to have scooter lanes and car lanes, just like in overpass highways. But donât allow gas tank carrying scooters on them.
Iâve witnessed and came across numerous minor accidents of the car-scooter and 2 scooter variety, and have come across a couple that were more serious. All I can say is Iâm amazed more accidents donât happen
I would think that part of the general disregard for the rules has to do with lack of police presence. And when there is a presence, you can see it from a mile away - usually a police checkstop with flashing lights on the side of the road, so of course everyone will slow down and drive courteously there.
My wife told me that there is a program where any civilian can sign up to wear a video camera and patrol the streets looking for traffic violations. All you have to do is make sure the camera catches the license plate of any violators. You get paid based on commissions from tickets issued.
This reminds me of traveling in a taxi in Bangkok, Thailand. I was amazed strict my driver was following the rules and I wondered why. I then noticed that at many intersections, there was a booth with tinted glass where a policeman may or may not be inside recording violations.
What do you folks think of these âundercover surveillanceâ ideas? Would they help the situation?
True and not true. Taiwanese take the scooter a block to 7-11. You donât need public transit for that. Most of my students live within walking distance of our buxiban. Not only do the parents pick them up on the scooter but some also bring a brother/sister on the scooter requiring them to stack up 3 on the scooter w/o helmets. If there werenât scooters people would find a way to get around.
but there isnât any reason to ban scooters. Start by strictly enforcing 1 passenger only and helmet rules. There is absolutely no reason that children should be allowed to stand in front of the driver. Additionally go after unregistered scooters that donât go through safety and emissions tests (which are a joke anyway). Just impound them with hefty fines.
I agree that riding a motorcycle or scooter in Taiwan, even a bicycle if itâs on a major street, is far too dangerous to be worth it in Taiwan. I would make an exception for an uncrowded road in the mountains or on one of the outlying islands, but the cities in Taiwan are deadly for all motorists, especially those on two wheels.
I have friends who say theyâve never been in a serious accident, that you just have to be aware and ride intelligently. I also know of lots of people who are dead, maimed, or otherwise damaged because they assumed that two wheelers are the only choice for them, or that they were somehow special and would not be hurt.
My kids and wife complain to me once in a while about the fact that I wonât let them ride a scooter, but you know what? Iâll take that if it means keeping them alive and healthy. It just isnât worth the risk.
The longer you are in Taiwan the more you get used to the traffic situation and before you know it you feel itâs normal. We foreigners coming to Taiwan should realize that IT IS normal for most of the local people, so they feel much less the need of changing things. Changes usually occur after a major fatal accident, like an overloaded kindergarten bus catches fire and children die. Then there will be a public outcry, politicians are pressured to change things, laws are changed, police is pressured to enforce the new law and suddenly the situation has changed to the better (for the moment or permanently).
I am totally in favor of installing cameras at every mayor intersection and take photos of cars and scooters running red lights all day long. Imagine the amount of money the government could make at just one Taipei intersection in one day. And no one would complain. Let those drivers/riders who endanger themselves and others pay.
If the government would be serious about improving traffic safety, they could produce shot clips about what to do and what not to do on the streets and air them during commercial breaks on TV.
In the seventies in Germany we were used to watch those kind of clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJAYUcEdV34
Funny, but educational. In this clip they are talking about how women cause problems (ha ha, so sexist). They have problems parking, donât wear seat belts because of their boobs and open car doors without looking behind. Hot chicks on bikes? Dangerous!
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it turns out that this happened a block away from my buxiban. Fortunately neither went to my school but several of my students were classmates or friends. Absolutely awful.
They were airing clips like that when I came in 1996. Used to see them especially at bus stations and public places that have TV screens. I assume they are still around.
First off, the incident that sparked this debate is a tragedy, and I feel deeply for the family involved. However:
If that family had been walking across the street when they were hit by the van, would you then suggest banning pedestrians?
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You can survive without riding a scoot. You do need to walk. Riding a scoot presents, what i feel unnecessary danger.
The danger is well documented.
Id ban passengers and animals on two wheelers. Single rider ONLY !
With the eventual view to heavily discourage moto / scoot use with heavy taxation.
We have very very few motos and scoots here in the bay area and that my friends, is absolutely fabulous !
And even though we have few, we still hear of moto deaths a few times a month. That is better then 1 a day though isnt it (for taipei city) ?
Youâre being very selective with that statement just to back up your belief, but youâre not being fair. If there is a tragic car-van accident, will you also call for a ban on cars? What about a tragic car-bicycle accident? Will you then call for a ban on bicycles, especially at a time when governments are trying to promote them to reduce environmental problems and traffic congestion?
Itâs nice to see you relent a little and allow us the freedom to have a scooter or motorcycle, if only for single-rider use. Thatâs a start, anyway.
Banning motorcycles and scooters outright because of accidents which they did not even cause is like banning schools because of school shootings. Itâs just not where the problem is. That some people make the personal choice not to ride a scooter or not to send their children to public schools is fine. Theyâve decided to ride only in cars or home-school, and thatâs their choice. But it would be just as misguided for activists to force the rest of society to home-school as it would be to force them to give up their scooters. It would also be equally misguided to tell a family to send their children to different schools to avoid multiple deaths as it would be to tell a family they can only put one person on a scooter to avoid multiple deaths.
Once all the scooters are gone, people will hear about a car-van accident which wasnât the carâs fault, and then theyâll want to ban all cars. Oh, sorry, just passengers in cars, and with heavy taxation to discourage their use. There are a lot fewer cars in Africa, too, so car-related fatalities there must be lower than motorcycle deaths in the Bay Area.
Clearly, the problem is elsewhere.
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Although not the cause of the problem reducing the number of scooters, enforcing single ridership only and developing public transportation would work well in reducing Taiwanâs horrific accident rate. Tommy is right, leas scooters would make Taiwan a lot better in many ways, from safety to air and noise pollution to clearing the streets of obstacles and developing healthier walking habits in the population. Scooters are an easy answer from the 1970s which has turned into a monster here.
Single or double riding is basically the same on my 150cc motorcycle. Iâve said it before but Taiwanâs problems are that they donât enforce the laws. Passing more laws that they wonât enforce is not the answer. There is absolutely no excuse that children should be standing on the scooter so they can ride 3+ at a time. A mother should not be hand carrying a baby. A child (or anyone for that matter) should not be riding without a helmet. As a matter of fact they should have helmet laws and get rid of all of these non-protective turtle shells.
going one step further but they need to get all of the crappy POS scooters off the road that havenât been registered or passed emissions tests for years. I would also get rid of the 50cc scooters since they frequently canât keep up with traffic. The handicapped scooters (training wheels) are also ridiculous imo.
I dont have the faith in Taiwanese that many of you seem to have. I feel DRASTIC action is needed to effect ANY change.â
Rather then trusting that they will adhere to rules and not allow 3 on a scoot, kids without helmets and all that.
I endorse SINGLE RIDER. This makes it easier to police. That means NOBODY ELSE. NO kids, no animals, nothing.
And NO CARGO of any kind. No gas tanks on scooters, NO oversize cargo.
NO CARGO of any kind. Single rider on a seat made only for a single rider (all motos/scoots to be produced from now with single seats installed). And the only thing a rider is allowed is a backpack. No cargo racks.
And of course , scoots must pass annual inspections.
Those found without to be immediately confiscated and trashed.
No bailing out at any price.
call me Lee Kuan Yew (former dictator of Singapore) if you want. But this will be a step in the correct direction IN my humble view 
Thank you for adding this. Now the rest of us can get on with our livesâŚerâŚdeaths. 
Many posters on this forum seem confident that driving laws will never be enforced in Taiwan, but I think it will gradually get better. Helmet laws are now being enforced in more places, and road alcohol stops and penalties are becoming more common. Now people have to wear seat belts in the back seat of cars. So things DO change, albeit slowly.
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I agree. The problem, of course, is the police in Taiwan are mostly not interested in enforcing the law. They are more interested in avoiding conflict and lowering their workload, judging from their behavior. The police force needs dramatic organizational culture change before any real progress will be made.