It's just too dangerous on a two wheeler in Taiwan

Life Cars & Motorcycles
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42

ALIVE we very much want y’all alive .

Its like the analogy with the life guards at taiwan beaches. TAiwanese by and large can not swim and wont learn to swim , partly because a lot of schools dont have a swimming pool and dont have swimming lessons.

HOpefully this will change as more sport complexes (who do have pools) come up in each neighborhood. And hopefully they will stop blowing whistles at people when the water is 4 feet deep at beaches in TAiwan.

The same id like to see with scoots in TAiwan.

Id like to see scoots be used mainly for recreation and not for transport. LIke to see public transport providing the transport aspect to replace the need to have scoots as transport.

LIke to see more responsible riding. And that means no passengers, no cargo, no pets.

Scoots are not as easily handled with passengers or cargo. They are therefore technically more dangerous when they can not be ridden as fluidly.

To replace scoots as transport is probably not possible in TAiwan. But Id like to NOT see families on them, not see animals on them, not see cargo being transported on them.

Id like to see real training in their operation and a very strict licensing discipline.

Id like to see old junkers taken off the roads. Id like to see NO unlicensed riding. With very stiff punishments when caught. BUt not police chasing where many youngsters end up losing their lives escaping from police as has happened.

Id like to see more people OFF their scoots and into public transport where-ever possible.

43

You’ve said a couple of very valuable pieces in this post, though I can’t help but think the swimming analogy is way off the mark towards proving even what you think it’s proving. You want to see people learn to swim towards the goal that they can enjoy their time on the beach (good), yet you don’t want to see people learn to drive responsibly towards the goal that they can carry a passenger (bad).

You need to let go of the inconsistencies. You want to see a ban on utilitarian use of scooters (transport), yet you’re fine with frivolous use (recreation). Either they’re dangerous in your eyes or they aren’t. Pick one and stick with it. You’re fine (I assume) with loading up a vehicle with cargo, thus inhibiting fluid driving to a similar degree as with a scooter, yet you think a relative amount of cargo shouldn’t be allowed on scooters. You want more use of public transportation and fewer scooters because of congestion, yet you don’t apply the same logic to cars, the bigger culprit of congestion. You mention a larger proportion of scooter fatalities in areas where they have more scooters, yet you ignore a larger proportion of car fatalities in areas where they have more cars. You don’t acknowledge speed in any of your arguments, whether it be cars, buses, or scooters.

More responsible riding. Yes. Real training. Yes. Removing unsafe scooters from the road. Yes. These are the goals of a decent society, and these recommendations are right on target towards solving the problem.

Be less obsessed with the police and laws, and don’t always assume that legal and responsible are the same thing. Laws are only enacted for periods of time and are always changing, yet “responsible” is a constant that never changes (think alcohol during the Prohibition Era in the US). Anyone who relies on the government or an endless string of rules as a fallback is already doomed to failure. Be less whiny. Be more proactive. Get the message out in the media. Get discussions going regarding safety. Make it a point of conversation. Get a dialog going. But don’t make alarmist, extremist, or ridiculous statements that will just get the idea mooted at the outset before the case has even been made.

Finally, I carry a passenger on my motorcycle. She is my wife, and I love her dearly. It would be tragic and devastating in my very limited life if she were to be harmed in a traffic accident while in my care on the back of my motorcycle. And I’ll thank you to never, ever again refer to me as an irresponsible driver simply because I choose to drive in a safe and responsible manner with her as my pillion.

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Its possible that you being perfectly responsible carrying your wife could be rear ended like that father with two young children was.

My simple view point is :

  1. scoots and motos are very dangerous to be on in Taiwan. Avoid AT ALL COSTS in my opinion.

  2. if you intend to ride a scoot or moto, then you alone should be on it, in order to reduce numbers of people on scoots/motos and to enhance safety as a sole rider on a scoot makes it more manueverable and therefore safer.

  3. my aim is to reduce the numbers of scoots/motos on the road by taxation, by removal of scoots /motos older then five years old. Increasing prices for new scoots/motos. With the aim to reduce over-all numbers. Yes , making it less of a choice, forcing the use of more public transport. Reducing use of scoots to the recreation category. And removing their use from transport category. Again with the view to making overall numbers less.

Making riding scoots an EXPENSIVE hobby. Dumping the millions of decrepit scoots on Taiwan and making new ones VERY EXPENSIVE. LIke 120,000nt for a 125cc for example.

Making the riding test truly one where you have to excel at riding (again with the view to decreasing overall numbers).

My aim is to reduce the numbers of scoots / motos in Taiwan to no more then ten pct of their current numbers within five years. Thats if I had any say, which I dont.

Just a voice in a sea of voices.

p.s. taiwan has too many cars. I dont mean that all scoot riders should migrate to cars. Instead Id still make car ownership quite expensive .

Its just needed on a small rock with the many millions of people living on it.

Id make smaller cars more affordable with bigger cars costing a lot more. More smaller cars, more space.

Big cars out, small cars in.

p.s. I dont feel a goal in learning how to ride a scoot properly is being able to carry passengers. I feel the goal should be being able to ride in a safe and proper manner. SAfe unto oneself as well as others on the roads.

Its not inherently safe being on a scoot/moto.

The taiwanese say being in a car is flesh surrounded by steel, while being on a scoot is flesh surrounding steel.

p.p.s one rarely sees two up on a moto/scoot in the bay area. Almost always only a single rider.

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It’s about as likely that we would be rear-ended by anyone as we would be struck by someone while walking across the street in front of a department store. You can not protect yourself from someone like that beyond being alert and responsive.

Scooters, motorcycles, as well as cars, vans, and trucks, can all be dangerous to be in/on. It’s inherent to their very use. One sort offers more protection during the accident. One sort offers more maneuverability to prevent an accident (even with a passenger, contrary to your assumption). We all know you think one is better, but they’re actually both equally safe. I mean dangerous. Don’t let your personal fear cloud objectivity, nor ruin it for the rest of society. It’s fine to admit your hangups and Motorcyclophobia, but don’t make other suffer for it.

However, I don’t feel that you should have a complete monopoly on whimsy and folly, so I offer my own proposal, which I hope you will find as equally modest as your own. The problem is not scooters and motorcycles. The problem is cars, vans, and trucks. There are too many of these types of vehicles in Taiwan. They take up more space on the roads, and parking is a nightmare. If that man you mentioned at the outset had been riding a scooter instead of driving a van, that family would not have had that tragic accident. Scooters prevent accidents from happening. Not only that, they can be safer for the person being hit. You see, if there is an accident, there isn’t 1,000kg of hurtling metal to crash, smash, crush, shred, maim, and kill. It’s just a hundred or so kilograms of plastic for people to pick up, then smile at each other, dust themselves off, pick up their vegetables, and go on their way with just a few scratches and bruises. Also, large vehicles should have their tax rates increased to discourage their use, with the eventual goal of completely removing them in the next five years, regardless of the financial burden this will place on anyone. If scooters should be taken out of circulation, as per your suggestion, after five years, cars should be taken out of circulation after four years, owing to their greater danger. We should also ban pedestrians and bicycles. We should also ban swimming lessons, because I don’t feel a goal in learning how to swim properly is to be able to go out into the ocean.

There. That’s what I’d like to see. I tried to make it as equally ludicrous, ineffective, and inconsistent as yours. I’ll leave it up to you to decide how reasonable it is.

It’s unfortunate that you posted all that above. If you had just edited it down a little bit, you actually had some good ideas. Let me show you:

And let’s not forget the most important part:

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46

All in all, since being hit seems a real possibility, id like NOT to be on a scoot/moto when that happens.

Active safety - being able to avoid an accident
Passive safety - being as protected as possible during an accident.

Moto/scoots may have the first one (but less so doubling up) but not much of the second.

Anyway , let me throw some virtual holy water on you since you ride a scoot in Taiwan.

You are a braver man then I am , Gunga din.

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Being hit in any meaningful way doesn’t happen as often as you think, nor does a passenger inhibit riding as much as you imply. I think you’ve been misinformed.

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Here in Taiwan is like anywhere else in the world: anything with wheels is dangerous, with ther difference that it seems to be more dangerous. So it’s not about this or aoother vehicle, but people. And well, vehicles also. If you ride crap it will fail eventually.

Some people say here that license test should filter down only people with amazing skills, but I say that it would be enough if tests will just require you normal or even good skills, knowledge and behaviour. I’m an absent minded person, and a serious case. I had no actual knoledgment about driving nor mechanics, no mention to circulation law, but I studied for a while the test, took it, and fail no single question/thing. Yeah, I’ve been driving for months in India, Nepal, Thailand and Laos, so I can manage a light motorcycle, but I think that something is failing when it comes to Taiwan and getting a license.

But this doesn’t mean that only people with high driving skills should access to a license. This means that currently people get license with a poor preparation. Nevertheless, some of the most reckless people I’ve met in the road were demonstrating actual driving skills… but putting others at risk. Why?= I can see two reasons in here: lack of conciousness, and being a taiwanese with a crappy job where they work overtime, so they are so pissed off and don’t give a damn about anything. But this a different story.

So, imho, there’s a list of things to be done instead of prohibiting everything:

  1. Enforce the current law: people without helmet, people on the phone (I’ve even seen people stopping behind a post in a curve for checking fuckin’ FB on the phone), only two people on a scooter… etc
  2. Only people over 16 can ride or be a passanger
  3. No dogs on scooters. That rests freedom of movement!
  4. People doing U-turns: get all them fined! this week I almost get slammed against a taxi who did so. Yes, I was fast… but still on my lane, on my direction, and looking at other vehicles!
  5. two wheels should have access to almost every lane. Why? because the right one is jsut to dangerous: cars park there even for ordering beetlenut.
  6. Car / van drivers that invade the scooters lane should get seriously punished. It’s just too risky.
  7. Any vehicle that run traffic lights (well, there are cases and cases, I’ve done sometimes :P) must be fined. Much more money, I mean.
  8. Real classes where they teach you all what you need to know about driving. Moreover, What you need to know here in Taiwan.
  9. Real driving with a monitor who teaches you about the phisics involved, about the different driving technics, about how to react under the different circumstances you may face on the road.
  10. Big cars for big families; that’s all. We live in an overcrowded country, so this is a reasonable measure.
  11. People who race on roads, punished. I myself ride fast, and I accept that sometimes I could be doing something wrong. But there’s some people who use number 9 as a track, without minding anybody else. I do mind others, so I change my ridding when I see other people or when i cannot see what’s behind. But this is not about me :stuck_out_tongue:
  12. People driving without license, punished. People driving while the license has been cancelled, to jail.
  13. Betlenut, alcohol, tobaco: seriously punished. In one way or another, all of them distract the driver

Only these 13 points would make a happier and longer life for many taiwanese.

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49

Quite.

I asked the question earlier about what the accident rate is per thousand miles of scooter travel (or 100,000 miles, or whatever)… I can’t see that anyone has the data.

My point is that as a relative newcomer to Taiwan, I have been amazed at the relatively small number of incidents or near misses I have witnessed as I travel around the cities (on foot, on a scooter, in a car or on my bike) when considering the sheer number of scooters buzzing around. Frankly, I’d be more interested in legislation dealing with the pollution from said scooters, which I’m fairly sure poses a greater risk to my health out here (all things considered).

Colin

fiftyyearsandcounting.wordpress. … in-taiwan/

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iv seen more then i care to remember

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Taiwan has an extraordinarily high number of vegetative state patients from traffic accidents, at least half of them from scooter accidents. focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_ … 1209040039

While most scooter accidents are minor, resulting in cuts and abrasions, when you get hit with a large amount of force, or thrown into the path of traffic, you are in real mortal danger.

In fact, almost 50% of traffic fatalities are scooter riders (interestingly 20% are from drunk driving, which is probably why the govt has really started cracking down on that).

taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003450276

The main problem, apart from poor law enforcement and driving behaviour, is the sheer number of scooters. Taiwan has the highest number of scooters per person worldwide, 15 million or more than one scooter per working individual, and perhaps the highest number of two wheeled motorized vehicles per head of population.

By reducing scooter numbers many issues would be ameliorated, as long as proper alternatives were put in place for people who need transport for their jobs etc. I would start with restricting their use in cities through licensing and parking fees and ultimately banning them from core city areas. I would have less regulation in towns and the countryside due to the lack of economic alternatives.

It’s also my impression that many scooter trips are not necessary, getting people to walk or cycle more would help individuals health. I believe Taiwan is very unusual to have such a high number of motorized vehicles in it’s densely packed cities and also being a relatively developed country, most scooter riders would take public transport in other such cities worldwide, and I don’t seethe justification for scooters here, rather I see a lot of things that can be improved by removing scooters from the environment.

As I said before, scooters are an easy and cheap solution gone wrong. It’s called the tragedy of the commons, when people want cheap and easy, well there are often hidden costs or in this case obvious costs.

Do a thought experiment. If no scooters existed previously would they be approved in any developed country worldwide? Apart from the serious noise and air pollution issues, the safety aspect would probably rule them out from being approved. I’m not saying I agree with all over bearing safety regulations, I think there should be room for individual choice TO A DEGREE, but I’m pretty convinced they would not pass modern day regulations. They have NO PROTECTION built in at all. Most helmets are next to useless and scooters can be driven at high speeds and accelerations with no safety features.
Look what google has to go through to get it’s driverless cars accepted on the roads in contrast.

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52

Try living in Taichung without a scooter.

Just sayin…

Even when the MRT gets built, its on one blimey road for most of the time. So, unless you are going from point A. on wenxin, to point B. on wenxin, its still gonna be useless.

53

Well it’s easy to put in a decent bus service as a first solution. The roads are wide enough and there are good expressways around the city. Of course a future subway and light rail and rail and bus integration would be the best solution.

I drive a car in Taichung as I live in the outskirts and need it for family reasons and also to tour Taiwan. If I lived in Taichung city core area I’m not sure if I would really need a scooter to get around. I couldn’t fit my family on it nor would I choose to do that.

54

You know, apart from those reports being over two years old now, I’m not so sure they prove what you think they prove. That there is less protection on a scooter than in a car in an actual accident is not being contested by anyone, least of all me. But those articles make no mention of numbers of cars vs. number of scooters on the road, nor do they mention if the number of cars are increasing, nor do they mention the number of total trips made by cars and scooters each day. Without that information, people will continue to use whatever they can get their hands on to prove their biases. I can think of a couple of ways to make those articles prove cars are the more dangerous mode of transportation, yet I won’t because it would be just as silly to call for a ban on cars as it is to call for a ban on scooters using that limited bit of information. Please read the newspaper more discerningly.

It’s interesting that so many Westerners on here are against scooters when many Western countries are starting to use scooters to help alleviate their own traffic problems and decrease gasoline consumption. If there’s one thing on which we can all agree, it’s that Western countries analyze the safety of any given product beyond what is necessary. That these safety-conscious people have concluded scooters meet their standards just proves that there isn’t a risk to the public. So much for your thought experiment.

The irony is that, by simply substituting the word “cars” for “scooters” in a lot of the arguments being presented, you can achieve the same objective of reducing congestion and fatalities. Try it and see what I mean. And, please, before one more person says that scooters offer no protection when being hit by a car, take a look at a bicycle.

It’s also very telling that the Westerners calling for a ban want to lay the bulk of the blame on an object rather than a human, and that the object they choose is also the one that’s mostly foreign to their own upbringings and therefore the one with which they are the least familiar.

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Who says people will switch from scooters to cars? Nobody is arguing for that. It’s a straw man to keep bringing this point up and it has been dealt with already. In fact it would be impossible anyway from a logistical and economic point of view. What makes sense is moving people away from scooters to public transportation or walking or cycling (if cycling routes can be provided that are safe too).

The reason why scooters are for sale in Western countries is because they have been grandfathered in , if they had to apply as a novel form of transportation I doubt they and motorbikes would have an easy time of it. Taiwanese officials and doctors are on the record that scooter riders have the highest risk of fatalities in accidents.

Besides, as I CLEARLY stated, it is the sheer number of scooters in Taiwan that causes many of these problems. There are also cultural and legal restrictions on their use in the West which reduces their impact immensely. For instance better driving instruction, strict enforcement, no parking all over pavements, usage of catalytic converters etc. In the end if you are on a bus or MRT or train or walking you are just not going to be exposed to the same danger.

Taiwan should also have less cars too.

Tommy grew up in Taiwan and even though I am a Westerner I have lived here long enough to form my own opinions on that matter, thank you very much. Not only that but many Taiwanese would agree (and I personally have known many) that riding scooters is inherently a dangerous activity. It is nothing to do with Westerners dictating to the locals, what a ridiculous idea!

There are many Westerners who believe riding scooters is perfectly fine in Taiwan, and there are many who don’t agree. Really pointless argument you have there.

My opinion is that it is the interaction of Object with Environment and People that needs to be analysed together. In Taiwan the interaction results in noise, air pollution, occupation of valuable pavements, danger to pedestrians, danger to scooter riders. To solve this one can take multiple approaches. The Object can be removed or decreased in number. The Environment can be improved (by offering dedicated scooter lanes- has been tried before). The People can be educated (has been tried and failed multiple times).

Looking at all the options I know which one makes the most sense and reduces associated major problems of noise, air pollution and pavement occupation.

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Education + law enforcement + more and better public transport. There’s no unique and effective solution without others. This country is overpopulated and scooters are necessary, at least in many cases. What fails is, in general, people’s attitude.

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The thing is, scooters are not neccessary in many cases. For instance in Taipei many people ride them because of convenience and because they are very cheap to operate, costing only 100 NTD per week for gas and often free parking at the public’s expense. Can someone still argue that Taipei does not have an excellent public transportation system? A cheap and clean and efficient MRT system, great bus routes, cheap and reliable trains…

They are not neccessary in many parts of the cities. I would say they may be neccessary in some towns and in the countryside. They are certainly a more convenient option than public transport in Kaoshiung and Taichung but again that is due to poor government policy more than anything. There is no reason that bus transport cannot be hugely improved.
It’s also true that there are many people, especally women, who will not ride scooters.

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Once again, substitute the word “cars” for “scooters” in your posts. For every two scooters that you demand be taken off the street in your suggestion, I demand one car be removed. Yet, you refuse to address the reduction in cars in any meaningful way. It’s always scooters, scooters, scooters, even though you haven’t offered one conclusive piece of evidence that they are even the cause of a higher number of overall deaths. Those articles you referenced were very vague (deliberately so?). What you don’t realize is that, while scooters may have a higher rate of death in accidents, they may actually have a lower rate of accidents, thus leading to a lower overall rate of death. Yet, you pick on scooters even though they may actually be safer for society as a whole. Why? You say you’ve been here “long enough”, yet this overly obvious fact escapes your attention. Again, why? You steadfastly insist scooter drivers migrate to public transportation, yet you refuse to address cars in that statement. Why?

You see where this is going? Your opinions aren’t based on statistics or observation. Neither are Tommy’s, for that matter. They’re based on something else entirely. You want to see the reduction of an object that isn’t even the cause of the problem. What kind of logic is that? The only correct thing you’ve suggested is improved public transportation, and that’s a great thing. However, it isn’t all that needs to be done.

And, if scooters are unnecessary, cars are even more unnecessary. If scooter riders are supposed to migrate to public transportation, car drivers better be there in front of them, not behind.

So, enough with your fixation on scooters. Fix the problem.

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We still really need to see fatality rates per km or something to put the numbers in perspective.

Fatality rates for the 3 vehicle classes in the taipei times article above:
Scooter/moto/bicycle - 43.6%
Cars - 27.3%
Trucks - 17.6%

tbh I’m actually surprised that just as many deaths occurred in cars+trucks as scooters. There are significantly more of them, they haphazardly don’t follow the rules putting them in harm’s way and they offer very little protection (usually with an unsafe helmet). To support an argument that scooters are ridiculously unsafe and must be banned I would need to see a much larger gap between the dangerous scooter and the safe car/truck.

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I think the framing of this is a little disingeneous. Not many would argue that cars and trucks are inherently safe all the time. Who is arguing driving cars and trucks in Taiwan is SAFE? But we all know who comes off worse in an accident between a heavy vehicle and a scooter rider.

Cars and trucks are used for longer distance travel and also for family and business transport. Accidents on highways or ore provincial roads would increase the death rate overall. Scooters are more about individual travel and shorter distances.
I’d like to see statistics of fatalities of scooters vs cars in city areas. That would be very instructive I am sure. Unless cars are going at relatively high speed it’s unlikely to result in serious injury or death in the city. But a scooter impacted at relatively low speeds can easily result in brain damage or a fatality, either from the direct impact or from getting run over by passing traffic.

Also, you can’t make an argument that scooters are not more dangerous than cars and trucks and then say that reducing scooter use is not a good policy to increase safety. This is not a logical construction, as most ex scooter users in cities will not be driving cars nor will they be driving trucks to work! Some may construe the focus on scooters as ‘unfair’ , as in you crack down on us but you don’t crack down on them. Again that is not a mature argument.

No doubt if scooters were completely banned and public transport wasn’t improved (again government policy) car use would go up in those places. It’s a bit chicken and egg. Taipei decided to build a whole chicken and still allows millions of scooters to enter the city everyday! :loco: Anyway a complete ban is unfeasible, however limits on their numbers in cities makes sense and is eminently feasible. Limits can also be put on car use in the city. Again one does not mean the opposite of the other.

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We need more statistics to get into the nitty gritty. It’s the old gun ownership question in a way isn’t it? You try to tighten up the enforcement and training. You can also reduce the number of dangerous objects. I think reducing the number in Taiwan’s case is a good idea, 15 million scooters is just far too many on this small island , I’ve been to Japan many times and they do just fine without them. I think Taiwan can move more quickly to implement sensible policies instead of outdated developing country policies of cheap and dirty. I am not picking on scooters riders per se, but I can see that there is a problem there that needs to be solved.

I’m saying reduce the number of scooters and provide better public transportation. You (or perhaps another person) has said they want scooter use reduced due to air pollution. There are many problems with scooters BEYOND the safety issue. They are a poor transport solution for modern cities.

Who is arguing otherwise if there is public transportation available? However cars are neccessary for many people who travel long distance.

I do want to fix the problem , reducing the huge number of scooters should help. Reducing the number of cars would help too.