I have a problem with anyone I care about riding a scooter, because I want them to live, and they are much, much safer in a car or on public transport.
Anyone who thinks scooters are a safe mode of transport should spend an evening in an emergency room in Taiwan. A large percentage of the patients are victims of scooter accidents. Ask any ER doctor in Taiwan about scooter safety.
The problem isn’t that you are riding unsafely. The problem is that others are riding or driving unsafely. They will hit you, sooner or later. Is it really worth the gamble you take with your life and the lives of your loved ones?
It does, actually. PRT (fully-automated personal transport) has been around for about 30 years. It’s about as safe as you can possibly get - certainly orders of magnitude safer than scooters. Nobody wants it because cities around the world have been designed exclusively and specifically for cars/trucks/motorcycles, rather than for people. In Taiwan, for example, they didn’t even bother to install sidewalks.
I’m involved in an unusual PRT project. It’s not going to save the world, but I think it’s pretty good. Griping about how nobody wants to use it does make one feel better sometimes.
Sorry for the disjointed reply, but this seemed to be the easiest way to keep everything organized.
And how does that compare to who comes off worse when a scooter hits a scooter? (Rhetorical, because we all know the answer, even you.)
I know a 20-year-old guy who was involved in a very minor car-car accident at low speeds. He was wearing his seat belt and didn’t have a scratch on the rest of his body, but he hit his head against the door frame. Small scratch on his head in a car, and he’s now severely handicapped and in need of constant care. That kind of stuff goes both ways, as that one article showed.
I’m not quite sure who you’re talking about or what this really means. My response should be: I’m not saying what you’re not saying they’re not. But that doesn’t matter as much as you don’t think it doesn’t bother them. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist. But I genuinely don’t understand .) Here’s my attempt to understand and reply: Also, you can’t make an argument that cars and trucks are not more dangerous than scooters and then say that reducing car and truck use is not a good policy to increase safety. This is not a logical construction, as most ex-car and -truck users in cities will not be driving scooters to work! Some may construe the focus on cars and trucks as ‘unfair’, but you don’t crack down on them. Again that is not a mature argument. (See what I did there? You’re still making the same mistake.)
I’m genuinely supportive of limiting the number of both scooters and cars in certain areas, so long as preference isn’t given to one over the other. The ratio of people to both scooters and cars must be evenly distributed based on national averages, and not dictated willy-nilly by some hypothetical unreasonable, biased individual who wants to see less of one particular kind of transportation.
A very emphatic YES!!!
I’m glad you said “I think” in here twice because you really don’t have any statistics to back this up. Quite to the contrary, actually. And, yes, you are picking on scooters. Read it again. It doesn’t come any more picked-on than that.
No, they’re not. I’ve traveled long distances without them. Lots of people do. Every day. Every weekend. This is easily your weakest argument. Cars are not nearly as necessary as you seem to think they are. I’d say they’re somewhere in the range of scooters on the list of needs.
i) ‘Why choose to lower scooters numbers’ instead of cars or trucks?
ii) Your argument also seems to be that scooters are not as dangerous as cars.
You can correct me if I’m wrong.
I say scooters should be reduced first in number due to safety, pollution and occupation of public space, especially in relation to city areas. The multiple factors together provide a persuasive argument to get people off scooters and using other forms of transport in the city. Taiwan has an extraordinarily number of scooters and yet there does not seem to be a logical reason for this at this point, it seems to be a hangover from when it was a developing nation like Vietnam. Why does Taipei have so many scooters (and cars) going through the city and yet it has excellent public transportation?
I would also agree with reducing the numbers of cars and trucks in cities. As for outside the city, it would be good if the number of scooters, cars and trucks are also reduced, but alternatives are limited. In areas outside the cities, for people who need to commute medium to long distances or need to do business, having a car is pretty much mandatory.
As for cars being as dangerous as scooters, I have provided some statistics although not enough to satisfy both of us. It certainly seems that the Kaoshiung city government agrees that riding scooters can be dangerous for your health.
I’m condident the statistics would back me up in my assertion that scooters put people more at risk at high impact speeds, but we have to find the statistics first to satisfy you . Not only at high impact speeds though, as just falling off a scooter into moving traffic is obviously extremely dangerous. You don’t just fall out of a car into moving traffic.
When you argue that moving people off scooters could cause more safety concerns, I fail to see your point. Most scooter drivers simply cannot afford to drive cars, and in cities like Taipei they can very easily turn to using the excellent public transport available. Other areas like Kaoshiung need to really start prioritizing public transport. They are aware of this already. taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003542822
So (a) for Taipei and the bigger metro areas, reducing scooter use SHOULD reduce accidents as people MOSTLY move to safer forms of public transport. Even for the minority that may turn to driving cars (b), how is their drive to work going to be any more dangerous than on a scooter? Please explain that to me :loco: .
Eventually Taiwan needs to become like Singapore where car ownership is extremely expensive. One has to buy a license to operate a car that is good for only ten years. And that license is something like 40,000 US dollars !!
Making a Honda Civic as much as 70,000 US DOllars !
A few things we can agree on i think:
Cars are dangerous and you can still die in one, even wearing a seatbelt.
scoots/motos are less survivable in an accident and have a higher fatality rate near double that being in a car.
living in some places in Taiwan requires personal transport and often a scoot/moto is the only solution (too expensive to buy a car, or no place to park one, etc).
too many scoots/motos in Taiwan. Too many cars too.
having too many scoots/motos around can hamper the development of public transport. Case in point. Kaohsiung wants to expand its subway system so that it can truly become useful, but the two lines it has now doesnt even start to make money and are often empty. Why? Because most Ktown people would prefer to ride a scoot.
Ex gF living in Ktown perfect example. She said its ridiculous to use the MRT, its very limited, buses take forever to wait for and to ride so a taxi or a scoot is the only way. 99pct of the time she was on a scoot. And shes had a few close calls , a few spills onto the road.
Ex gf living in TAipei loves scoots and had a near fatal one time falling in front of a bus. Had the bus not stopped (with only a few feet to spare) she would have been under the bus and become another statistic. Now she didnt need a scoot and i forbade her from riding another while we were together.
I didnt stop my Ktown ex GF from riding a scoot as I knew it was the only solution for her.
Im with Thomas. I dont want anyone of my loved ones on a scoot/moto at any time in Taiwan (or most anywhere in the world).
Its just too easy to die a senseless death through a stupid action of SOMEONE ELSE on a scoot.
p.s. I really dont think one should ride a scoot in Taipei because really one can do without. The buses and MRT are really very good. Taxis when needed are affordable.
I can think of a few accidents just off the top of my head that happened in Taipei that resulted in death in a horrible way.
19 year old (I think she was 19 or so and very pretty too) got run over by a bus on her scoot just a few doors down from where she worked at a wedding studio. Her scoot caught on fire . She was trapped under the bus, probably in considerable pain and then had to suffer being burned to death !!
I think everyone would agree she died a HORRENDOUS death.
Early twenties girl riding her scoot (not speeding) tried to avoid a dog and fell onto the road. Passerbys went to her aid, directed traffic around her and called 119 for police and an ambulance as she was hurt. They didnt want to cause her further injury by moving her.
But a heavy motorcycle came along at high speed and either didnt see her or failed to take corrective action and ran over her stomach. She died in the hospital. Her earlier injuries were not life threatening but being run over by a heavy bike on her tummy was.
Early twenties lady going off work at a club ran into a taxi running a red. She died on the spot from high speed impact. YEs she was riding a bit too fast but how many ride the speed limit when the roads are empty.
All three of these cases these ladies would not have died had they been on a bus or a car (except in the last case had she been in a speeding car she might have still died in a car to car accident).
Thing is , being on a scoot/moto is really being in a real situation where the actions of others can result in dying in a horrible way.
YES, you may have to be on a scoot if you live in a city where its essential to have public transport. IF you can, buy a small car. IF you cant, please have six ears and six eyes on the road. And do try not to carry other people or animals or cargo. Its a disservice to them.
I have to say I find riding a scooter here a lot safer than riding in the UK. I think the main reasons for this are
Every man and his dog own/ride a scooter, in the UK its a very small percentage, so cars/trucks/buses expect to see a scooter at a junction, lights ect. In the UK they don’t and most accidents are caused by drivers not seeing scooter riders and pulling out at junctions.
The roads are a lot wider (the most part) here leaving more room for scooters to safely maneuver around traffic.
Dedicated scooter lanes and stopping boxes at lights and no left turns. In the UK there is non of these things so you are constantly in the same flow of traffic with other road users.
=> Ha. These lanes are a great idea… spoiled by the fact that many people driving cars and trucks don’t respect scooter drivers and get in and out as they need to overtaking other cars. It’s also many people’s choice for a good place where to park. See also comments below.
Okay, headhonchoII, here are some thought experiments for you. They are somewhat hyperbolic, but that very quality helps keep the ideas pure.
Imagine we wake up tomorrow and every two scooters have been turned into one car and all the new drivers have the same driving ability as everyone else. Public transportation is still as it is today in all of Taiwan–nothing has changed. All of those cars now carry people to school, work, shopping, running errands, etc. Will there be more or fewer accidents than today? Will there be more or fewer deaths than today? Why?
Imagine we wake up tomorrow and every car has been turned into two scooters and all the new drivers have the same driving ability as everyone else. Public transportation is still as it is today in all of Taiwan–nothing has changed. All of those scooters now carry people to school, work, shopping, running errands, etc. Will there be more or fewer accidents than today? Will there be more or fewer deaths than today? Why?
You also like to pick on scooters as a holdover from Taiwan’s days as a developing country, comparing it to Vietnam. Okay, let’s explore that, shall we? How many cars were there back in Taiwan throughout the 70s and into the 80s, back when the main means of transportation was bicycle and scooter? What was the fatality rate on the roads at the start, before the car boom? As more and more scooters were added, what was the rate of increase in fatalities annually? When cars started to be added to the milieu, what happened to the rate of increase in fatalities annually? Did it increase faster, or did it hold steady? As cars started to become more common–taking up more and more space on the roads as well as becoming a 1000kg steel force hurtling down the street, injuring, maiming, or killing anything they hit–what happened to the rate of increase in fatalities annually? Did it increase faster, or did it hold steady?
On a slightly more violent note: being on a scooter and being hit by a car is more likely to result in death than being on a scooter and being hit by another scooter, the same way as having a knife and being attacked by a man with a gun is more likely to result in death than having a knife and being attacked by another man with a knife. A person has a higher chance of surviving a collision with a scooter or an altercation with a knife than they do surviving a collision with a car or an altercation with a gun. Yet your solution to solving traffic problems is to restrict scooters? That’s like trying to solve school deaths by banning knives. Yes, banning all knives outright would help reduce the number of school deaths, the same way as banning scooters outright would help reduce the number of traffic fatalities, yet that’s not targeting the biggest killer.
Look again at that statistic you just posted. It proves my point. (Your statistics have a way of doing that, by the way. You really need to be more discerning when you read and post stuff like that.) Did the majority of those scooter riders die because they were hit by another scooter? Or did they die because they were hit by cars?
As an example, a little 7-year-old girl (I think) was illegally crossing the road yesterday. She was hit by a motorcycle. The motorcycle rider wiped out, causing injury to himself and damage to his bike (he then got up and kicked the girl, but that’s beside the point). The point is, the little girl survived. Had she been hit by a car, she would have been seriously injured or maimed in the most fortunate of circumstances; she would have been killed in normal circumstances. Yet, the driver of the hypothetical car could walk away unharmed, because he made the “safer” choice to drive a car instead of riding a motorcycle. Safer for whom? For himself or for the rest of society?
This is the car paradox in densely populated countries, and it says a lot about individuals and individualism. Do you buy something that, while it may keep you safer, has a higher risk of causing harm to others in society, or do you buy something that, while exposing you to risk, is less likely to cause harm to others? If one or two people are faced with this dilemma, it is negligible. If a society as a whole is faced with this dilemma because of growing prosperity, it becomes a crisis. And I know which way most people in a prosperous society vote, and it sure isn’t to think of others.
You keep on saying that scooters should be limited in the cities and all of us poor schmucks should just do whatever the upper-middle class and the wealthy dictate. Okay. Let’s explore that option, too. Assume there is an excellent public transportation network in the cities and scooters are gone, just like the scenario you laid out. Car drivers will still be killing each other at an alarmingly high rate out on the highways and freeway where scooters can’t even go now. How do you explain that? In your world where scooters are the real problem, how do you explain that? Clearly, the problem is elsewhere, despite your constant harping on scooters, scooters, scooters.
You are wrong.
i) I say, “Why not lower scooter, car, and truck numbers in equal proportion”? Traffic is a huge problem for all classes of people in Taiwan, so it will be all classes of people who must be part of the solution. In the move to public transportation, the upper middle-class must give up their cars in a similar manner to the lower classes giving up their scooters.
ii) My argument is that scooters are more dangerous when they are hit by cars. Another way of saying that is cars kill more pedestrians, cyclists, and scooter riders than all three of these modes of transportation do to each other. (Let’s not forget about cyclists and pedestrians, as they are just as much the victims of 1000kg of steel as scooter riders.) That’s what I’m saying.
Tommy525 has finally come up with a good post, and it’s probably the one he should have used to start this whole discussion instead. His use of statistics in point number 2 is not correct, but the rest is fine. He manages to objectively state the issues and then insert his personal opinion below. He also brings up a good point about Singapore. In general, I hate to use Singapore as an example of anything, but if you can overlook their excessiveness at times, they have good intentions. They make cars extremely expensive. That’s what Taiwan should do, too, once a decent public transportation system is getting close to completion. Make cars even more expensive than they are now (and I say that without any trace of sarcasm). At the same time, Taiwan could implement some very strict environmental laws for scooters, thus achieving a reduced pollution output and making them as unaffordable to the lower classes as cars will have become to the upper-middle class. If any of the people engaging in this discussion are genuinely concerned about society as a whole and not wrapped up in their own individualism, the goal must be overall reduction in pollution and fatalities for society as a whole, and it can only be achieved with the sacrifice of certain conveniences by everyone–yes, the upper-middle class, too. (The wealthy will never be forced to sacrifice anything substantial, but they’ll still be paying for our public transportation through the exorbitant tax on their cars.)
Or, you could look at it in another, equally ridiculous way. Reducing car use SHOULD reduce fatalities as scooter riders will then have more space on the roads (because you can put several scooters with passengers in the space a car takes up), and the scooter riders won’t be in danger of being maimed or killed by 1000kg of difficult-to-stop-or-maneuver steel hurtling down the road. Their drive to work will be safer because the greatest danger will be bumps to the head from falling when they are hit by another 100kg scooter.
Or, we could just choose a solution that makes sense and solves the problem.
There’s a lot to deal with in that post and hard to write from a phone.
A lot of folks in Taiwan have both cars and scooters, scooter use is fairly prevalent across society. Of course for some it is their only economic means of transport. I’m not proposing taking that away if there are no other reasonable options available. Im very much in favour of lao bai xing not getting hit with any unfair regulations.
I believe the number of all motorized vehicles should be reduced, especially due to the excessive air pollution they cause. If electric vehicles were introduced that would help, although issues of safety and parking would still need to be looked at. I also think scooters can be redesigned into something that gives more protection to the rider.
There are many ways to bake a cake. Obviously some people propose reducing scooters, others may propose reducing cars. I’m proposing to reduce scooter use in cities such as Taipei as an easy and quick win. The alternatives are there for the vast majority of commuters. I think car use should also be reduced at the same time. I don’t agree with a policy that would end up increasing car use and I don’t see the need for that to happen at least in Taipei and later in Kaosiung and Taichung.
Taiwan is a country with long distance commuting and a large manufacturing and industrial base and remote regions. Singapore is a city state run on completely different principles. If we proposed to compare Taipei to Singapore I might go with that. Otherwise its not a good comparison. Taiwan has a requirement for cars and trucks in terms of it’s hinterland in particular. The best solution on the highway is for better law enforcement as I cannot see an easy way to reduce the number of buses and cars and trucks on the highways yet. The other alternatives are maxed out at busy times.
I drove a scooter for many years in Taipei county. I had two accidents both of which could easily have turned very serious. In one of them I was bed ridden for a few days due to severe bruising of my back. I flipped completely upside down after hitting another scooter side on at speed and landed on my backpack without impacting my head. The other guy got off fairly lightly. In the other accident I was knocked down by a speeding car from behind and landed in the middle of the main thoroughfare in Zhonghe at rush hour. I was very lucky not to be run over, some people helped me out to get off the road quickly. On my daily commute I would see at least one accident every morning. How many were serious I couldn’t tell you exactly but some of them must have been fatalities. Those never made it to work and never made it home.
I also suffered serious allergies for a time and only realized later that scooter riding was one of the major causes. Scooters in Taiwan don’t have catalytic converters so they emit high levels of noxious gases and particulates. The health hazards of rush hour commuting must build up over time. The ill health effects of NO and ozone seem not be widely recognized in Taiwan, look them up!
I realize now I was taking big risks for little monetary reward (and should have moved closer to work but of course Taipei county was badly served by public transport) , even now I have some minor health issues that may be related to scooter riding.
The mix of traffic is definitely a problem here. You’ve got buses, cars, trucks, scooters and bikes using the same roads and all driving haphazardly. One approach is to enforce better driving behaviour. Another approach is to reduce the traffic mix. So ideally only cars or only scooters or only buses would be better, I agree. Ideally we would all walk to work and cycle and skateboard and roller blade with Swedish chicks leading the way .
You should post from your phone more often, because this is your most objective, conciliatory one yet. I think I can agree with most of it. Bring on the Swedish chicks! (Apologies to all the hot Swedish chicks offended by this post.)
As a scooter rider I hate it but that might help to decrease the number of scooters in Taipei. Paying for parking your scooter and towing away of all scooters parked outside designated spaces. All around Taipei 101 and the city government as well as around the Taipei Railway Station you have that situation already and its really annoying if you have to pay 20 NT-dollar every time you park your ride, especially if you have to go to a convenience store to do it. If that would be the case in all of Taipei, I would ride the bus and the YouBikes all the time. I have started doing this a lot anyway, but can’t do it if I am in a hurry.
and after all these posts here is the “short version”
Scooters,unfortunately, do not have built in intelligence or spatial awareness. That is also true of 90% of the Riders of Scooters in Taiwan sadly.
There is no awareness,concept of danger or defensive riding because the culture has been indifferent about correct training,or indeed Law enforcement.
Everyone has a choice.Individuals can ride safely,even without Legislation,if they choose to.The Taiwanese,in general,choose not to.It is stupid and dangerous but unless the “people” are concerned ,it will continue ad infinitum. I just hope I can continue to avoid the fools and feel sorry for the innocent children,pedestrians,put at risk daily by ignorant drivers/riders. Rant over :fume:
I have to say, I really don’t get why anyone is posting about how scooters, and not cars, should be banned from being in the city, when it should be the other way around.
I mean it really makes no sense at all to me. The city should be for small transportation, mass cargo transportation, and public transportation. Cars should not be there
at all.
As for public transportation, god I hate that shit. How many here have done the public transportation to get to and from work when it takes 1.5 hours to work and
another 1.5 to get back home? I know I have, and it sucks balls!! I’d rather have my trusty 250cc scooter, or my 150cc motorcycle to get me to and from work.
When public transportation gets anywhere near as good as B.C. let me know… At least there you can look up where you want to go online and it’ll tell you how
and when you’ll get there (at least in Vancouver and Victoria). Until public transport in Taiwan is that good, then get off your high horses about how bad scooter
riding is.
In the mean time, I’d love to see more action done to correct driver fuck-ups here, car and scooter drivers/riders alike. If anything, I’d like to see at least mandatory
proper drivers ed. for anyone causing serious bodily harm or death in an accident. But I’m guessing that’s just a dream as the drivers test and the riding test is just a joke.
In the end I really don’t see that changing anytime soon. To me, Taiwanese are too proud and too superstitious to change their ways.
I’m not from BC but I very much doubt that public transportation is as good or at cheap as in the Taipei area for example. Also BC is a huge province Taiwan is small with densely populated cities. There is no reason public transportation should take a long time to get to where you are going if properly implemented. Also almost nobody has proposed removing scooters from outside the city areas.
Another guy that rolls into the thread without reading it first. Get off your horse first. Also your argument is confusing. There should be no cars in cities but public transportation is shit? Scooter riders drive badly so we should get off our high horse? Eh?
You know they have the Internet here and you can look up things here too right?
I am also from BC/vancouver and no, taipei public transport is far better, cheaper, safer and the mrt is far more ubiquitous. And of course you can check buses online. There’s even an app telling you when your bus will reach your stop.
(Sorry, I couldn’t resist. But I genuinely don’t understand 
.) Here’s my attempt to understand and reply: Also, you can’t make an argument that cars and trucks are not more dangerous than scooters and then say that reducing car and truck use is not a good policy to increase safety. This is not a logical construction, as most ex-car and -truck users in cities will not be driving scooters to work! Some may construe the focus on cars and trucks as ‘unfair’, but you don’t crack down on them. Again that is not a mature argument. (See what I did there? You’re still making the same mistake.)
.