atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FH19Dg01.html
(old article)
Maps and images suggest that the government in China did not consider Taiwan to be a part of China, until when it became handy. Check out the pictures and the evidence in the article.
In 1939, Taiwan was still under Japanese control.
You know the Chinese do abide by international treaties and laws.
According to the Treaty of Shimonoseki, Taiwanese was ceded to Japan in perpetuity in 1895 and Korea gained legal independence.
Therefore, Taiwan was no longer part of China since 1895!
And what year did Japan relinquish control of Taiwan to China?
Anyone?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]And what year did Japan relinquish control of Taiwan to China?
Anyone?[/quote]
They never did. And China frequently complains about treaties, calling them unequal.
Anyway, that still doesn’t explain why Chinese articles from the 1940’s and earlier depict Taiwan as independent. “Taiwan was a part of China since ancient times” is idiotic and unfounded yet many repeat the phrase.
I think the point to be gleaned from this is that saying “Taiwan is an inherent part of China” (as many mainlanders do) is ridiculous. It has not been part of China many times in the past (in fact, it has not been part of China for most recorded history). This does nothing to settle the debate over whether it is now a part of China or not.
Taiwan has never been part of China and this was enforced by the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
This is why Chinese maps from 1895-1945 show Taiwan as a Japanese territory (because it is).
[quote=“BlueGreen”]Taiwan has never been part of China and this was enforced by the Treaty of Shimonoseki.
This is why Chinese maps from 1895-1945 show Taiwan as a Japanese territory (because it is).[/quote]
Paging Dr Hartzell, paging Dr Hartzell, code blue, code blue. Please respond. 
But it is interesting to note, it looks like the map includes Serbia, Mongolia, and Tibet as part of China.
Showing Chinese imperialism as always,
I think tomtom up there’s onto a winner that’s not mentioned that often. If Taiwan is such an inherent part of China, how did China not fall apart on the occasions when Taiwan hasn’t been, and the Chinese have acknowledged that? And if Taiwan has always been part of China, then what about the times when it wasn’t? The simple fact that Taiwan has in the past not been part of China puts paid to the entire argument that Taiwan is an integral part of China. Although, as tomtom says, it doesn’t say anything about the current situation.
Well history has shown Taiwan usually falls apart when not part of China.
Look at the situation now; try to separate from China and Taiwan economy goes backwards.
Anyways I think the point of this thread, if Shrimp ever paid attention to the details of the sources he cites, is who owns he history of an Ancient Kingdom in NE Asia. South Korea or PRC?
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Well history has shown Taiwan usually falls apart when not part of China.
Look at the situation now; try to separate from China and Taiwan economy goes backwards.[/quote]And your point is? That’s got shit to do with what was said. If Taiwan is such an integral part of China, why didn’t China totally disintegrate when Taiwan wasn’t part of it?
Blame the Japanese for not assimilating all the Taiwanese quickly enough, I guess.
I mean the Japanese didn’t even have compulsory education past primary school in the beginning. So how are the Taiwanse suppose to adopt this new indentity and disintegrate their “Chinese” identity that you are alluding to.
If you’re talking politics, China did cut off all political ties with Taiwan from the beginning of the Unfair treaty with Japan until Japan renounced ownership of Taiwan at the end of WWII in the Pacific.
The same is true for HK and outer territories. China abided by the treaties and had no political power of the area, until UK decided to give up control of HK island and the lease expired on the outer territories.
Unless you are referring to why different group of “Chinese” have a concept of a map of China whose demarcations are independent of various treaties negotiated with States at various times.
ROC has a map published recently that shows Outer Mongolia and Tibet as part of China.
But like I mentioned. Beside Shrimp posting up an interesting tib-bit of Chinese history, what was his point. Even I concede in 1939 Taiwan was not under Chinese political control.
[quote=“Tetsuo”][quote=“ac_dropout”]Well history has shown Taiwan usually falls apart when not part of China.
Look at the situation now; try to separate from China and Taiwan economy goes backwards.[/quote]And your point is? That’s got shit to do with what was said. If Taiwan is such an integral part of China, why didn’t China totally disintegrate when Taiwan wasn’t part of it?[/quote]
China is always either disintegrating or on the verge of. Drama queens.
I know, with like 5,000 years of a disintergrating history, you’d figure it hit rock bottom by now. 
[quote=“ac_dropout”]Blame the Japanese for not assimilating all the Taiwanese quickly enough, I guess.[/quote]Irrelevant.
[quote]I mean the Japanese didn’t even have compulsory education past primary school in the beginning. So how are the Taiwanse suppose to adopt this new indentity and disintegrate their “Chinese” identity that you are alluding to. [/quote]Irrelevant and bullshit. Not referring to any Chinese identity, I’m referring to CHINA. You know, the COUNTRY.
[quote]If you’re talking politics, China did cut off all political ties with Taiwan from the beginning of the Unfair treaty with Japan until Japan renounced ownership of Taiwan at the end of WWII in the Pacific.[/quote]Yes it did. And so Taiwan wasn’t part of China then, right? And China didn’t disappear into a black hole, right?
[quote]The same is true for HK and outer territories. China abided by the treaties and had no political power of the area, until UK decided to give up control of HK island and the lease expired on the outer territories.[/quote]Irrelevant.
[quote]Unless you are referring to why different group of “Chinese” have a concept of a map of China whose demarcations are independent of various treaties negotiated with States at various times.[/quote]Irrelevant and bullshit. Don’t pseudo-quote that “Chinese” shit to try and twist the argument into something you’re not losing. China != Chinese.
[quote]ROC has a map published recently that shows Outer Mongolia and Tibet as part of China.[/quote]And your point?
[quote]But like I mentioned. Beside Shrimp posting up an interesting tib-bit of Chinese history, what was his point. Even I concede in 1939 Taiwan was not under Chinese political control.[/quote]See, and China didn’t disintegrate and vanish into tiny little particles of dust. Therefore Taiwan is obviously not an integral part of China. Notice that I’m not saying it is or isn’t part of China now, just that it’s obviously not integral to China, and that it hasn’t always been part of China, which makes the “Taiwan has been part of China since antiquity” argument wrong, because we can easily produce an example of when it wasn’t.
Tetsu
“Integral” in the sense that Taiwan is necessary to make China whole by the people who issue such statement.
Like in the sentence “This member is integral to the team.” The team doesn’t disappear because it is missing a member. It is just not perceived as whole or complete. And may also imply the team is less effective without that member.
I don’t see the relationship between integral and antiquity. Since antiquity is a reference in time and makes no distinction on the concept of being “complete.”
Just because China had possession and lost possession of the island in various points in history, doesn’t take away the right of China’s political
leaders to determine if the territory was or wasn’t intergral to the country.
The days of Chinese imperialism are at an end much like their grip on the Hong Kong Crown Colony
I think the historical angle is incidental to the modern political situation. FDR and CKS certainly weren’t interested in historical accuracy when they sat down to cede TW to the ROC in WW2.
Telling China it doesn’t have a historical claim now, would probably have the same effect as telling CKS back in the day; China’s national pride requires it to reclaim Taiwan, whatever the old maps say.