Language usage on the Forum

[tando]

The welcome message of the forum is very misleading.

English is our favorite language, but other languages are welcome

The welcome message also says

we may moderate use of a particular language if we get the feeling things are getting out of hand

I hardly understand what is getting out of hand when I post a link to a Chinese content followed by English replies or not followed by any replies, though the link to the explanation (I guess) of getting out of hand is dead.

If non English contents should be posted with English explanatory sentences because here is an online community in English, it is fine, and I am already following the rule. But, please write it clearly as a rule, and apply it consistently.

It is inconsistent that my link to a Chinese content followed by English replies or not followed by any replies is not acceptable but a continuous conversation in non English language with 10 or more posts is acceptable.

I also cannot get what is wrong with machine translation posts. I understand that the point of complaints of people like @lostinasia is my links to Chinese contents waste their time because they should use machine translate to understand what are the contents on. So, now I post the results of machine translation, which must be almost exactly the same with what they will get, depending on what translator they use, and sometimes I change the spacing of original text to get better results.

I post the contents I think completely on topic and the English is good enough to get the points of what I want to post. The English is better than what I get by machine translation from many other languages to English, and surely much better than from other languages to my language, though I can get the points from the context most times. If people indeed cannot get the points or get confused, they can ask to clarify or they can just ignore those posts as they must be doing on many other posts, or mods can move them to temp.

Maybe the criteria of understandable English here must be much higher than I think, as I witnessed @tempogain pointed out some English probrem on a post and didn’t give an anwwer when what is asked by OP is obvious from the context.

Though I don’t get what is wrong on the machine translations, if machine translations should be followed by the original text or link to the original source to avoid potentilal harms or misunderstangings, it should be written as a rule too, imo.

I had somehow misunderstood that this forum was for mostly foreigners in/related to Taiwan, and had forgot that it is clearly written on the top that here is a community in Engligh. I must have remembered that many English speakers think everyone should speak English and every information should be provided in English whereever they are, like @SunWuKong or @lostinasia do.

[lostinasia]

@tando

I must have remembered that many English speakers think everyone should speak English and every information should be provided in English whereever they are, like @SunWuKong or @lostinasia do.

I am very tired of my opinion being misrepresented in this way. My name has been dragged up for this issue every week or two for several months now. Please stop.

[tando]

@lostinasia

I am very tired of my opinion being misrepresented in this way.

My links waste your and others time.
That is what you said.

[lostinasia]

@tando

My links waste your and others time.
That is what you said.

First, that is not the part I quoted above.

Second, that is a simplification and misunderstanding of the other post that I wrote. But I’ve re-explained this so many times to no avail that I see no point in doing so again.

[yinggeaussie]

Google Translate is there, browsers can be set to auto translate to a given language if Translate is there as an extension. Nobody has ever objected to those CECC links that I post most days, and they are in Chinese.

[lostinasia]

@yinggeaussie

Nobody has ever objected to those CECC links that I post most days, and they are in Chinese.

Correct - the links are valuable, as I’ve always and repeatedly (SO repeatedly!) said. Note however that you write a few words providing context (“12 + 2 = 14 and two more deaths”), instead of just posting a bare link with no explanation. That’s all I suggested / requested long ago - and I believe it’s all anyone has requested - yet somehow I’m accused of demanding all-English, only-English, everywhere. Which is absolutely not something I want and is not something I recall ever requesting.

But again, I’ve gone through this so. Many. Times.

[deepshelter]

@tando

English speakers think everyone should speak English

Oh yes, let’s generalize English speakers.

[lostinasia]

@deepshelter

Oh yes, let’s generalize English speakers.

In fairness, they did only accuse myself and @SunWuKong of this. But it’s certainly not something I’ve ever thought; I doubt it’s what SunWuKong intended either.

[afterspivak]

Regardless of language, links / source clarification are helpful. That way people can go and get more details if they like.

Guy

[tando]

@lostinasia

Note however that you write a few words providing context

yes, that is what you demanded me. Non English contents should be always posted with English contexts, because otherwise it wastes your time by making you use Google translate. I don’t think I am misunderstanding your claim.

Why you are always referred? Because you are the only person who demanded me to do so, before it became a rule. The first time I replied to you that I will try to do so. Next time I told you again I will try to do so, though if my link is with no English, it is something you don’t need to care.
But it is not enough for you that I try to add English when I can, but I should always add English contexts because you always need to know what is it without wasting your time.

@deepshelter

@tando

English speakers think everyone should speak English

Oh yes, let’s generalize English speakers

where did I generalize? I just said the fact that many English speakers are so.

[lostinasia]

@tando

that is what you demanded me.

I made no demands. I am in no position to demand. Request, suggest, sure, but not demand.

@tando

Because you are the only person who demanded me to do so, before it became a rule.

Again, I did not demand that you do so.

@tando

But it is not enough for you that I try to add English when I can, but I should always add English contexts because you always need to know what is it without wasting your time.

I suspect there has been a misunderstanding here, and I’m sorry I didn’t make myself clear enough. Trying to add English is definitely enough.

[tempogain]

@tando

I hardly understand what is getting out of hand when I post a link to a Chinese content followed by English replies or not followed by any replies, though the link to the explanation (I guess) of getting out of hand is dead.

Well, that is left up to moderators under that phrasing. It’s my estimation that a very brief explanation of the content of Chinese language links is needed to ensure everyone is kept in the loop in discussions.

@tando

If non English contents should be posted with English explanatory sentences because here is an online community in English, it is fine, and I am already following the rule. But, please write it clearly as a rule, and apply it consistently.

We’ll be going over applicable rules and see how we can make things clearer, but our rules it make clear that moderators ultimately make decisions about content in their forums here, and that the rules cannot describe in detail any possible situation that might arise. If I make a judgment such as explained above, I will certainly seek to apply it consistently.

@tando

It is inconsistent that my link to a Chinese content followed by English replies or not followed by any replies is not acceptable but a continuous conversation in non English language with 10 or more posts is acceptable.

I understand that that is your opinion, but the situations are different.

@tando

I also cannot get what is wrong with machine translation posts.

Well, specifically some posts recently which were machine translations of articles included confusing mistranslations and without an accompanying link, no context.

@tando

If people indeed cannot get the points or get confused, they can ask to clarify or they can just ignore those posts as they must be doing on many other posts, or mods can move them to temp.

In general if some kind of posting needs to be repeatedly moved to Temp, we’ll ask the poster to stop doing that. That’s what happened here

@tando

Though I don’t get what is wrong on the machine translations, if machine translations should be followed by the original text or link to the original source to avoid potentilal harms or misunderstangings, it should be written as a rule too, imo.

We can’t delineate every possible situation that might arise here in rules. Ultimately, this is a moderated site where moderators may at times ask you not to do certain things, and one needs to accept that if they care to participate here.

@tando

I had somehow misunderstood that this forum was for mostly foreigners in/related to Taiwan, and had forgot that it is clearly written on the top that here is a community in Engligh.

Primarily, which is why we make make requests in that area from time time to time.

[FenjaJie]

As a non-native English speaker I can understand that not everyone is willing and/or able to translate a whole article, or a bigger part of one. I usually go for Google translate and proof-read the translation, if it makes sense to me or not. Like here:

COVID - Covid Tests to take a flight

Maybe useful for some Forumosans: "The federal government has lifted all Covid-19-relevant entry restrictions for people living in Taiwan with effect from Sunday, June 20, 0:00 am CET. Travel to Germany by Taiwan residents is therefore permitted again for ALL travel purposes from this date. For entry by air, a test certificate, recovered certificate * OR proof of vaccination is required. Currently only the vaccines approved by the European Medicines Agency (EMA) are recognized. See the webs…

But I can’t guarantee that the translation is in the end 100% correct.

On the other hand I appreciate short one-sentence summaries of Chinese articles like “MOE wants to increase the number of foreign English teachers in Taiwan”. This way I have a clue of what’s written in that article and discussed in the thread.

[Andrew]

@tando, don’t you think it’s perhaps time to stop complaining about this? Like other people have told you repeatedly, I very much appreciate the links you post as (as far as I’ve seen) they’re always relevant and useful to whatever you’re responding to. I haven’t seen any cases where your contribution isn’t valuable.

I agree it would be desirable, as a general rule, for people posting non-English links to add a brief summary of what they’re posting and why they’re posting it (this also applies to English links), except when it’s clear from the context. And when it is clear from the context, I think it’s fine to just say “yes, see here” or something. I don’t think anyone is demanding that you comprehensively summarize the links you post, as others have said before (repeatedly…).

And if you don’t want to do that, I think most people would prefer you just continue posting the links anyway. I know I would. No need to make such a big deal out of this, I think.

[lostinasia]

@Andrew

as others have said before (repeatedly…).

Yeah, sorry about that, I know it’s tiresome. But I have trouble letting it rest if I’m a) flagged, and then b) misrepresented.

(Goddamn it, when I’m responding to you I’m especially careful to make sure I’m properly toeing the line of vocabulary usage, and as a result constantly second-guessing myself …)

[Andrew]

@lostinasia

(Goddamn it, when I’m responding to you I’m especially careful to make sure I’m properly toeing the line of vocabulary usage, and as a result constantly second-guessing myself …)

Haha, that made me chuckle. Don’t worry about it! (I only said something one time…)

[tando]

@tempogain

Ultimately, this is a moderated site where moderators may at times ask you not to do certain things, and one needs to accept that if they care to participate here.

Regardless of mods’ decisions are consistent or not, this is fair enough.

@tempogain

Primarily, which is why we make make requests in that area from time time to time.

This is clear enough. This forum has not been for me from the beginning. My apologies for disturbing your English forum.

[Andrew]

@tando

This is clear enough. This forum has not been for me from the beginning. My apologies for disturbing your English forum.

God. @tando!!

[BiggusDickus]

@tando

@tempogain

Ultimately, this is a moderated site where moderators may at times ask you not to do certain things, and one needs to accept that if they care to participate here.

Regardless of mods’ decisions are consistent or not, this is fair enough.

@tempogain

Primarily, which is why we make make requests in that area from time time to time.

This is clear enough. This forum has not been for me from the beginning. My apologies for disturbing your English forum.

I, for one, hope you reconsider @tando . I enjoy and value your posts.

[Andrew]

I think the only thing left now is for @lostinasia to commit seppuku. Sorry man.