Late apex cornering

The article called “The Pace” already has its own thread here and in addition was posted on another thread previously. But I wanted to highlight a particular bit of it which is particularly useful for the multiple blind corners on mountain roads here:

[quote=“http://www.ridehsta.com/html/safety.htm”]… Exact bike control has you using every inch of your lane if the circumstances permit it. In corners with a clear line of sight and no oncoming traffic, enter at the far outside of the corner, turn the bike relatively late in the corner to get a late apex at the far inside of your lane and accelerate out, just brushing the far outside of your lane as your bike stands up. Steer your bike forcefully but smoothly to minimize the transition time. Don’t hammer it down because the chassis will bobble slightly as it settles, possibly carrying you off line. Since you haven’t charged in on the brakes, you can get the throttle on early, before the apex, which balances and settles your bike for the drive out.

… More often than not, circumstances do not permit the full use of your lane from yellow line to white line and back again. Blind corners, oncoming traffic and gravel on the road are a few criteria that dictate a more conservative approach, so leave yourself a three or four foot margin for error, especially at the left side of the lane where errant oncoming traffic could prove fatal. Simply narrow your entrance on a blind right-harder and move your apex into your lane three feet on blind left turns in order to stay free of unseen oncoming traffic hogging the centerline. Because you’re running at The Pace and not flat out, your controlled entrances offer additional time to deal with unexpected gravel or other debris in your lane; the outside wheel track is usually the cleanest through a dirty corner since a car weights its outside tires most, scrubbing more dirt off the pavement in the process, so aim for that line. [/quote]It seems that quite a few motorbike riders aim for a “racing line”, but as the passage above explains, this is not the safest nor necessarily the fastest line to take on public roads.

For corroboration of this approach, see the guidelines posted by the Minnesota Motorcycle Safety Centre:[quote=“http://www.dps.state.mn.us/mmsc/latest/MMSCHomeSecondary.asp?cid=5&mid=190”]Ideal lines through different turns

Constant-radius turn: set up to the outside of the turn, apex (point along the path closest to the inside of the curve) in the middle of the turn—move to the inside, and exit on the outside of the turn.

Increasing-radius turn: set up to the outside of the turn, apex early in the turn, and exit on the outside of the turn.

Decreasing-radius turns: set up to the outside of the turn, apex late in the turn, and exit on the outside of the turn.

Multiple turns: set up to the outside of the turn, apex late for both turns, and exit on the outside of the turn.

Blind turns: set up to the outside of the turn, remain on the outside until the exit is visible (plan a late apex), and exit on the outside of the turn.[/quote]

46 views of this and only a few of them from me! So, what do you fellow Vroom-vroomers think? Such obvious common sense that it’s not worth commenting on? Such a boring fuddy-duddy approach that you’re not interested?

For me, learning about late apex cornering increased my enjoyment of twisty mountain roads. I’m still fairly cautious as I have quite an active imagination. But this approach gives me more confidence. It’s fun, too.

Well, I didn’t quite know how to reply to it but your post does outline the advantages of late apex management. For me, smooth, safe, solid and well controlled riding is what it is all about - a satifactory ride where everything falls squarely into place.

I have a copy of “Roadcraft - motorcycle handbook” which is a very helpful read - an invaluable asset to anyone’s motorcycle riding. It will open your eyes and help to improve your riding skills no matter how good a rider you believe you are - it mentions alot about cornering.

Unfortunately, it’s not in Taiwan but I have got my mother to send it across for me and it should arrive shortly. I have already read it, but I have requested it be sent across so other expats here can pass it round and perhaps learn a little from it.
I’ll let you all know when it arrives.

My motto is: See further, live longer.

It’s hard to conjure up images of what exactly the post explains (for me anyway) I’m guessing it’s like your other post joesax where this this is a racing line: and this would be a late apex: But only if the lane in the pics represents YOUR lane…and not the whole road. Am I correct in this?

[quote=“Mordeth”]…this would be a late apex: But only if the lane in the pics represents YOUR lane…and not the whole road. Am I correct in this?[/quote]Right. That’s it exactly. The idea is that as soon as you see right through the corner, you turn in smoothly but fairly quickly.

But there’s something I hadn’t thought of before. The article “The Pace” mentions keeping three or four feet in from the centre line in case of “errant oncoming traffic”.[quote]Blind corners, oncoming traffic and gravel on the road are a few criteria that dictate a more conservative approach, so leave yourself a three or four foot margin for error, especially at the left side of the lane where errant oncoming traffic could prove fatal.[/quote]
But on some narrow Taiwan mountain roads, three or four feet in means you’re already at the other side of your lane, at the inside of your corner. That kind of defeats the point. And “errant oncoming traffic” is not a rarity but routine. (Though of course the oncoming traffic might well be a scooterist who just decides to ride down the wrong side of the road, so he comes up on the right hand side of your lane!)

So this presents a dilemma: late apex corner and hope that you see oncoming lane-straddlers soon enough to tuck back into the right hand side of your lane. Or keep to the right hand side whenever you’re in a blind corner, accept the reduced visibility, and hope that nobody’s riding towards you on that side of the road!

What do people think?

Hmm, well if you watch my “mountain road” videos that I posted in the “Open forum”…on very narrow roads…I just hug the curb as close as I can. On such narrow blind corners your speed is generally low enough that your limited field of vision isn’t too great a risk.

Check out the close call at 2min 40 seconds in: youtube.com/v/i8L3HkDL0sg

I find that a lot of the time the road conditions in Taiwan force a serious rethink of commonly accepted cornering line theories… the sheer number of utterly blind “canyon” corners, often with very tight increasing/decreasing radii, many of which are littered with potholes, manholes and assholes, require IMHO a bigger bag of corner tricks than the largely US or European bike theory books would have you believe…

the core of this issue is blind corners, so corners you can clearly see through need not apply… if the corner is blind but the overall width of the road is fairly wide and the traffic is light, I would usually opt for something close to the late apex line above to see what’s coming and then pull in tight on exit in case there’s something that was out of line of sight on approach… In corners that are really tight and really blind, and especially when there seems to be other cars (read: idiots) on the road, my cornering lines evolve into something most motorcycle handbooks discourage… namely sacrificing visibility for position… following the red line from about the middle of your lane, closer in than standard late apex/ racing line positioning, then closing in tight hugging the apex all the way through the corner and exiting still on the outside means that you are already 90% out of oncoming harm’s way, should there be an idiot who’s way over in your lane, you’re already positioned and focussed on the “tightrope” track between the edge of usable road surface and oncoming asshole and only a very minor adjustment to your line will have you in the position where you’ve really done all you can to avoid the asshole and all that’s left is to get on the horn to get him to wake up and hope your guardian angel isn’t busy that afternoon…

with a standard late apex line on many of Taiwan’s roads your line of sight is severely limited, even quite far into the approach, if you look at the blue “late apex” line, the blue truck isn’t visible even at point-X, where most riders on a standard late apex line would be more or less committed to their speed, line and turn in point, but given the closing speed, the blue truck is going to present a nasty surprise at point-Y about a half a second later, upon which very large adjustments to your line are going to have to be done very quickly to avoid the truck, this in itself opens another can of worms, since simultaneously you’ll have to be plotting the course of the truck, making brake and throttle adjustments, moving weight around, counter steering, and looking for a new line without running off the road… if you get it all right in under about a 1/4 second you’ll be okay, otherwise… ouch…

as I said though, this is just another alternative that has a time and place just like other cornering lines… there are hazards like roadside debris, idiotic roadside farmers in illegal motorized contraptions, and any number of other potential pitfalls, and this cornering line, like any other is a judgement call, not a cure all solution… I’d guess that I use this line perhaps 1 blind corner in 10, according to conditions and how tight / blind the corner is, and how many idiots seem to be on that stretch of road since basially this is a survival line where you assume the asshole is already there, barreling into the corner in your lane… there’s a lot to be learned from motorcycle theory handbooks etc. but there’s also a lot that they can never teach you about the unique riding situations we face in Taiwan… IMHO the more versatile your cornering arsenal is, the better your chances of getting out, having fun and getting home in one piece and US and EU motorcycle lore should be taken as a base, not a bible…

Blue truck graphic = :notworthy:

Agree that on very tight roads you need to assume the idiots are approaching every corner in your lane and are actively trying to kill you.
I usually travel the very tight, twisty mountain roads at night if possible. The view is less interesting but you can at least see the oncoming traffic from kilometers away. I’ve still to meet anyone travelling (say) a cross-island highway at night without lights on…
(yes I know that doesn’t help you much on your Sunday afternoon ride)

Great post Plasma. And like I said above…on very narrow blind tight turns I just hug the curb as well. Although I think your pic although very well done (you make it yourself??) doesn’t represent the late apex very well…since it doesn’t actually come close to the apex. I think something a bit more accurate of the late apex approach would be: (sorry for my lack of editing skills) and here you can see that in the beginning it is dangerous but not so much in the later stages of the turn.

That’s more on par with what was already shown here: And even this apex line would be closer to the inside if representing a bike and not a kart.

[quote=“redwagon”]Blue truck graphic = :notworthy:

Agree that on very tight roads you need to assume the idiots are approaching every corner in your lane and are actively trying to kill you.
I usually travel the very tight, twisty mountain roads at night if possible. The view is less interesting but you can at least see the oncoming traffic from kilometers away. I’ve still to meet anyone travelling (say) a cross-island highway at night without lights on…
(yes I know that doesn’t help you much on your Sunday afternoon ride)[/quote]

I never thought about that…so if I wanted to go to the east coast across the number 7…the safest time might be to leave an hour before sunrise…to take advantage of the darkness…but while still having the daytime to admire the east coast…interesting.

right… the “late apex” line wasn’t perfect since I was trying to put them both on a single tight radius corner for the graphic’s sake… I’m learning Adobe Illustrator for work stuff and little time wasting efforts like this are good practice… er… that’s my story and I’m sticking to it… :wink:

[quote=“Mordeth”][quote=“redwagon”]Blue truck graphic = :notworthy:

Agree that on very tight roads you need to assume the idiots are approaching every corner in your lane and are actively trying to kill you.
I usually travel the very tight, twisty mountain roads at night if possible. The view is less interesting but you can at least see the oncoming traffic from kilometers away. I’ve still to meet anyone travelling (say) a cross-island highway at night without lights on…
(yes I know that doesn’t help you much on your Sunday afternoon ride)[/quote]

I never thought about that…so if I wanted to go to the east coast across the number 7…the safest time might be to leave an hour before sunrise…to take advantage of the darkness…but while still having the daytime to admire the east coast…interesting.[/quote]

yep, that’s until you come across said illegal farmer’s contraptions without lights or reflectors :noway: (personal experience) or some arse who’d trying to save gas with the main beams off… it is still better warning, and a defintie safety advantage, but riding in the dark even with comparatively good motorycle headlights raises new dangers of it’s own… also it’s not the quickest way from A to B since not being able to see far enough ahead on corner entries and/or see potholes etc. prevents you from going in at full/normal speed…

Thanks for the excellent illustration, Plasmatron.

[quote=“plasmatron”]… In corners that are really tight and really blind, and especially when there seems to be other cars (read: idiots) on the road, my cornering lines evolve into something most motorcycle handbooks discourage… namely sacrificing visibility for position… following the red line from about the middle of your lane, closer in than standard late apex/ racing line positioning, then closing in tight hugging the apex all the way through the corner and exiting still on the outside means that you are already 90% out of oncoming harm’s way, should there be an idiot who’s way over in your lane, you’re already positioned and focussed on the “tightrope” track between the edge of usable road surface and oncoming asshole and only a very minor adjustment to your line will have you in the position where you’ve really done all you can to avoid the asshole and all that’s left is to get on the horn to get him to wake up and hope your guardian angel isn’t busy that afternoon…[/quote]That makes sense.

[quote=“plasmatron”]…as I said though, this is just another alternative that has a time and place just like other cornering lines… there are hazards like roadside debris, idiotic roadside farmers in illegal motorized contraptions, and any number of other potential pitfalls, and this cornering line, like any other is a judgement call, not a cure all solution…[/quote]Right. I think we can generalise that obstacles on the right side of the lane are less likely to be coming towards you at high speed than obstacles on the left side of the lane. So for very narrow blind corners I can see that just keeping to the inside of the corner could be safer.

Actually, I’m with Mordeth on this. I don’t really enjoy some of the really tight and windy stuff. I have too much of an active imagination! I like proper two-lane roads with a bit more visibility.

[quote=“redwagon”]I usually travel the very tight, twisty mountain roads at night if possible. The view is less interesting but you can at least see the oncoming traffic from kilometers away. I’ve still to meet anyone travelling (say) a cross-island highway at night without lights on…[/quote]It’s the same in the tiny winding lanes in Devon. They’ve been used for centuries so are actually quite a bit lower than the level of the fields on either side. At least at night you can see approaching headlights.

[quote=“plasmatron”]
yep, that’s until you come across said illegal farmer’s contraptions without lights or reflectors[/quote]I haven’t had that happen, but I used to go pretty late at night, maybe leaving at about 1am as to arrive in Hualien around dawn. The farmers would have been laying drunken in their beds when I set out and by the time they got up I would already be screaming down the nice wide part of the #9 into Hualien. :slight_smile:

[quote=“plasmatron”]or some arse who’d trying to save gas with the main beams off…[/quote]Up in the mountains I usually have the other problem, that they won’t switch to dip.

[quote=“plasmatron”]it’s not the quickest way from A to B since not being able to see far enough ahead on corner entries and/or see potholes etc. prevents you from going in at full/normal speed…[/quote]Depends how well you know the road I guess. IIRC the quickest I ever made it to Hualien in daylight was a bit over 6 hours. One time in the dark I did it in under 5. That’s downtown Taichung to downtown Hualien on an NSR. Of course I was not going flat out on either occasion, that’s stupid on public roads (in any country) and I did know the road like the back of my hand in those days.

Speaking of which I just shaved the backs of my hands…too many kids commenting on how hairy I am.

that’s true… a lot’s been written about riding in low light conditions = less peripheral vision processing = more brain power for processing what counts… remember the late Steve “Hizzy” Hislop’s insane night lap times at the Suzuka 8 hour etc…

for sure, refusing to dip the brights is another pet hate… so you see them coming a mile away, deftly avoid a head on collision, only to go careening off the next cliff, blinded by their headlights… :laughing: :noway:

recently I’ve been jumping on the scooter after work at 6pm and heading out into the empty roads in the foothills of DaKeng behind the international golf course… now that the Maj has gotten some nice sticky Maxxis tires with a good profile and rear suspension raisers to avoid clearance issues, it’s a riot to throw around the really tight stuff up there and since it’s only 5 mins from my place it’s a great way to relax after work… I notice though that it takes the same 110% focus levels to do those roads properly on the scoot that it does to really push the GS on other roads due to the “variables overload” of limited visibility through corners, poor surfaces, dirt patches, overhanging banana trees etc. and as soon as dusk hits I start making mistakes and hitting potholes and ruts and stuff that I don’t see early enought to plan around, there’s a noticable change compared to when the light is still good… it really is a roller coaster though, much tighter and twistier than anything I’d consider fun on the GS, but still it’s great practice and while I’m sure it’d be a chore on the GS, it’s a riot on the scoot!..

here’s badly photostitched 360 of what I’m talking about…

[quote=“plasmatron”]recently I’ve been jumping on the scooter after work at 6pm and heading out into the empty roads in the foothills of DaKeng behind the interntional golf course… now that the Maj has gotten some nice sticky Maxxis tires with a good profile and rear suspension raisers to avoid clearance issues, it’s a riot to throw around the really tight stuff up there and since it’s only 5 mins from my place it’s a great way to relax after work… I notice though that it takes the same 110% focus levels to do those roads properly on the scoot that it does to really push the GS on other roads due to the “variables overload” of limited visibility through corners, poor surfaces, dirt patches, overhanging banana trees etc. and as soon as dusk hits I start making mistakes and hitting potholes and ruts and stuff that I don’t see early enought to plan around, there’s a noticable change compared to when the light is still good… still it’s great practice and I’m sure it’d be a chore on the GS, but it’s a riot on the scoot!..[/quote]It’s good fun on the BWS too, as you can imagine, and even better now I’ve got a more sensible tyre on the front.

I always go to that area to test prospective purchases, break in new cylinders, etc., so I should know it like the back of my hand. It still catches me out sometimes though. It’s a real maze.

Only downside is the dogs, especially where they hang out in packs. Can be quite scary.

[quote=“plasmatron”]as soon as dusk hits I start making mistakes and hitting potholes and ruts and stuff that I don’t see early enought to plan around, there’s a noticable change compared to when the light is still good… [/quote]Yes. That not-quite-dark light is the worst for seeing detail and for distance judgement. I hate driving at that time of day and will often stop for a break until it is actually dark. Then I take it easy for another 10 or 20 minutes until my eyes have fully adjusted to the darkness.
At least you can fit your GS with some extra lighting for this purpose. My NSR had nothing like enough alternator output to run extras and my Virago really had nowhere to fit them (without it looking like ass).

[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“plasmatron”]as soon as dusk hits I start making mistakes and hitting potholes and ruts and stuff that I don’t see early enought to plan around, there’s a noticable change compared to when the light is still good… [/quote]Yes. That not-quite-dark light is the worst for seeing detail and for distance judgement. I hate driving at that time of day and will often stop for a break until it is actually dark. Then I take it easy for another 10 or 20 minutes until my eyes have fully adjusted to the darkness.
At least you can fit your GS with some extra lighting for this purpose. My NSR had nothing like enough alternator output to run extras and my Virago really had nowhere to fit them (without it looking like ass).[/quote]

The eye has two different types of receptors that it uses for seeing. One type is used during the day…and the other for darkness. At dusk and dawn the eye isn’t using either fully…hence your vision is worse at dusk than in darkness…with regards to driving anyway.

  1. I think the OP really just means you stay off the brakes as long as possible then go on them really hard and you can’t be cornering while under heavy braking (back wheel a little off the ground kind of braking) then tip the bike into some part of the corner and power out as soon and as hard as possible starting wide on the outside, going as close to the inside as possible then running wide as possible again depending on set up for the next corner.

  2. Meanwhile in Taiwan; go around every corner wide because sometimes if you’re unlucky 2 trucks are coming toward you in your lane as they overtake each other overtaking something else. Going wide in the corner means you’re more inclined to be hitting fine gravel and other debris of course.

  3. Another choice is to sort of squint and hunch your shoulders as you go around the corner because it makes you feel like you’ll somehow survive the impact better.

I tend to vary the approach between all 3 methods and probably number 3 is my favorite.