Leftie Activists Make Huge Profits

[quote=“fred smith”]
As to BB’s comments, you are making emotional irrational statements that draw implications from my statements that do not accurately reflect my stance or argument. But how you do remind me of Alien. :lovestruck: :lovestruck: :lovestruck: with her oh yeah? Well what about this then? Oh yeah, well don’t tell me that then. I wonder if Alien has really left or if she is still posting under a new avatar? One of her many? Alien? Is that you?[/quote]

how, for example, is pointing out that the decline in the US welfare state has coincided with an explosion in the prison population, an emotional irrational statement. But as you say fred, it is friday, so maybe I should let you off.

FS dictionary:

emotional irrational statement = one that does not compute with my assumed version of reality.

PS Tigerman
some good points. Shame fred doesn’t have your cognitive capacities

MM

Guess you forgot the wealth of statistics that I supplied regarding Euro defense budgets and abilities during the Cold War? Whatever. I notice that you shut up pretty fast about that particular topic. If things are as you say they are in Canada, then leftist liberal policies are not being implemented. If these businesses are able to do what you say they are then they are really acting in accordance with the views that I espouse or did you miss that in this particular debate. Also as to the troll thing. Have I ever changed my views just to elicit an emotional response from a poster or have I consistently maintained the same position over the 1.5 years that I have been online here? Finally, I believe that I more than most supply a treasure trove of facts, figures, sites and information. So go suck an egg.

Alien, er BB: Prove that the rise in prison population was the reason for the drop in welfare rolls. I dare you.

[quote=“fred smith”]
Alien, er BB: Prove that the rise in prison population was the reason for the drop in welfare rolls. I dare you.[/quote]

Why would I want to pove that? What would be interesting to do - but I fear your guiding philosophy prevents you from contemplating - is to consider if the relationship was the other way around i.e. if a drop in welfare provision leads to an increase in prison population. If this is the case it could well be more economical to provide welfare, as keeping people inside is not cheap. But as I said your principles would probably make you against this possibility for saving taxpayers’ cash.

PS still no explanation as to why it is an emotional irrational statement… :s

Alien:

So you cannot prove it. Fine.

Irrational and emotional because it implies without evidence an oppressive throw-away mentality to those that cannot be urged to work. Wrong.

But let me make my case since you apparently cannot make yours. In addition, most poor black men in ghettos (if any) do not pay child support so imprisoning them would have exactly what kind of effect on welfare rates?

Over six years ago, Congress overhauled much of the nation’s welfare system. The Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 19961 replaced the failed social program called Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) with Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF). The reform legislation had three primary goals: (1) reduce welfare dependence and increase employment, (2) reduce child poverty, and (3) reduce illegitimacy and strengthen marriage.

At the time of the law’s enactment, many liberal groups made dire predictions about the terrible effect these reforms would have on America’s children. In particular, the Children’s Defense Fund claimed that welfare reform would cast millions more children into poverty and hunger.2

These predictions were wrong, and welfare reform in fact produced the opposite results.3 Many groups, including academic institutions and public policy organizations, have published a wide variety of research showing the reform’s undeniable success.4 The documentation of this success has already begun to play a crucial role in the TANF reauthorization process scheduled in Congress for the coming months.

Reduced Black Child Poverty
In the almost seven years since the welfare reform law was enacted, economic conditions have improved dramatically for America’s poorest families. Welfare rolls have plummeted, employment of single mothers has increased dramatically, and child hunger has declined substantially. Most striking, however, has been the effect of welfare reform on child poverty, particularly among black children.

However, a report recently released by the Children’s Defense Fund shows that the number of black children under age 18 living in extreme poverty increased to nearly one million in 2001.5 Extreme poverty is defined as having an after-tax income of less than half of the federally defined poverty line. For a family of three, the poverty line was $14,128 in 2001, which would make the extreme poverty line $7,064 for that year. These findings show an increase of roughly 145,000 black children in the extreme poverty category since the enactment of welfare reform.

Although not incorrect, these findings can mislead readers about the success of welfare reform by focusing on a narrow slice of the entire child poverty population that has otherwise significantly improved under the reformed welfare system. While the number of black children living in extreme poverty is certainly a cause for concern, the overall level of child poverty, particularly among black children, has made tremendous progress:

For the 25 years prior to welfare reform, the percentage of black children living in poverty remained virtually unchanged.
Since welfare reform, the poverty rate among black children has dropped by one-fourth, falling from 41.5 percent in 1995 to 30.0 percent in 2001.
The black child poverty rate is at its lowest point in U.S. history
.

Since welfare reform, over 1.2 million black children have been lifted out of poverty. Since welfare reform, six black children have been made better off and lifted out of poverty for every black child whose economic condition has worsened.

Quite. Did Fred write the first post himself? I suspect not. From where did he quote it? Why no credit to the author? Is it quoted in full? If so, there is a copyright issue.

So sue away Juba:

It’s not quoted in full and I don’t think that the Heritage Foundation will mind if I use its information. Nice try though, but alas yet again no cigar… Sorry, to take valuable time away from your noble efforts to defend dictators such as Saddam and Kim Jong-il but hey I am sure that they will do fine without your noble and needed assistance for a few more minutes.

Further to this topic,

The prison population in America has quadruped since 1980 to more than 2 million people. Crime rates during the decade dropped to all-time lows. Coincidence? Consider that researchers have found that 15 crimes are committed for every person released from prison, and that 17 crimes are avoided for every person put into prison. Also along those lines, a 10 percent increase in prison population leads to a 13 percent decrease in homicides.

Considering that half the people in America’s prisons are serving time for violent crimes, that means that, conservatively, millions of people have avoided becoming victims of such crimes thanks to these policies.

In the last year, 25 states have sought to reduce the burden on their budgets and their corrections systems by weakening mandatory-sentencing statutes, reforming post-release requirements and restoring parole. Those proposing these measures come from both sides of the political aisle and from every level of government. They include sheriffs and police chiefs, legislators and members of Congress, governors and prison executives.

So how does this jive with the view that people are being thrown in prison just to reduce welfare rolls? Anyone?

heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed020404a.cfm

r u still being humorus or just showing signs of dementia?

Yawn

PS the other info was lovely but doesn’t deal with the central part of my point i.e. is it cost efficient to keep all of these people in prison or could the welfare state be used to deal wit these people in a more efficient manner?

Quite. Did Fred write the first post himself? I suspect not. From where did he quote it? Why no credit to the author? Is it quoted in full? If so, there is a copyright issue.[/quote]

Let’s please provide links.

This is a link to the article cited in the initial post: eformer.squarespace.com/

The wealth of what? Excuse me, but you took about three weeks to come up with anything when I challenged the right wing of forumosa to ad lib a defense of their position. As I said, then, if you guys really understand what you are talkign about then you should be able to state it in your own words. Links are for backup. They shouldn’t be the substance of a post.

As for shutting up on the Cold War thread, you obviously forgot that in that particular thread I said I knew nothing about the matter and was looking to hear from the so-called history experts on forumosa. My intention was to learn. You guys failed in every way to help that. So I didn’t shut up. There was nothign more you had to say that was of any use to me. You guys are posers. I can do a google search myself Fred.

As for Canada, you made a fool of yourself showing how ignorant you are of the situation there. I’m not going to debate with someone who tries to bolster his argument by talking about things he knows nothing about. Especially someone as rude as you.

Besides, I already agreed that as you so narrowly define liberals they shouldn’t be interested in profit. (Unless of course they are like many Canadian people who have come to believe that a sound economy based on conservative principals is the best way to generate taxes to pay for liberal social programs like health care.) My point was just to show you up for ignoramous you are.

Here’s a tip Fred. When you attack someone else’s country, try to at least do a google search to find out that what you’re saying is true. Got that Yankee boy from the land of bible-thumping, child-humping, Muslim hating, Jew baiting, Vietnam debasing, Iraq eradicating, racists, bigots, war-mongering, fat assed monkey-lovers.

You’re a troll Fred. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Oh, and hung and kisses to make all the hurtful things I’ve said okay.

MM:

I was in Russia for three weeks. Remember?

Well I supplied the facts that you asked for didn’t I?

My point regarding Canada is irrelevant to the discussion of regulation in society. Maoman claimed that he would be willing to put up with those things and I said yeah right. As to what your friends are or are not doing, who can say? Got any proof? No. We just have to take your word for it cuz you know this guy who’s like in the CIA and he told you at this bar that…

So I will have to go by my own personal experience (not in Canada) but dealing with regulations in Minnesota, a state with a system very similar to those in liberal countries like Canada. I actually worked in a school system. I think I have some inkling about what goes on in terms of rules and regulations and such. Do you? Don’t think so but you have a friend who told you that… Bullshit. I really doubt that things are as easy as you say in Canada. If anything Canada and Minnesota would have to be very similar. I would assume that Canada is even more regulated but then maybe its not. Still doesn’t change my original point liberal systems mean lots of regulation like I described in Minnesota. If those systems are not in place in Canada then guess what it is not as liberal as Minnesota so the original point regarding liberal vs. nonliberal is still valid. Get it?

Show me the quote where Canada was attacked? I was attacking rules and regulations and suggested that they might exist in Canada. Can I prove that these rules exist? No, but I am not going to take your word for it that some people you know blah blah blah.

As to your other nasty remarks… they only prove that you are the one who lacks any substance for his remarks. When have you ever posted anything worthwhile? Don’t bother to answer. I would not want to perpetuate this obvious trend any further.

hahah

So, I guess we can count you among those of us who are not opposed to the use of direct insults?

[quote]So I will have to go by my own personal experience (not in Canada) but dealing with regulations in Minnesota, a state with a system very similar to those in liberal countries like Canada. I actually worked in a school system. I think I have some inkling about what goes on in terms of rules and regulations and such. Do you? Don’t think so but you have a friend who told you that… Bullshit. I really doubt that things are as easy as you say in Canada. If anything Canada and Minnesota would have to be very similar. I would assume that Canada is even more regulated but then maybe its not. Still doesn’t change my original point liberal systems mean lots of regulation like I described in Minnesota. If those systems are not in place in Canada then guess what it is not as liberal as Minnesota so the original point regarding liberal vs. nonliberal is still valid. Get it?
[/quote]

Fred, I gave an anecdote to support what I have documented in other places with data from the Canadian tax office and an OECD report for 2004.

As for whether Canada is liberal or not, that is not the point. You can’t make one true statment and then back it up with a lot of bullshit and expect to get away with it. You lambasted Maoman for not understanding leftist policies, fair enough. But then you continued with the most ridiculous typing about an over-regulated Canada where welfare receipients rule the doctor’s office. This is not only untrue but insulting.

if I made a statement about children dying in the states because their parents couldn’t afford health care would you accept this as a simple observation? Bullshit. You’d understand it was a loaded statement, full of insulting implications suggesting the inferiority of the US system, and by extension the way of life you feel is best.

Would you allow someone to say “I really doubt that things are as easy as you say in Canada. If anything Canada and Minnesota would have to be very similar. I would assume that Canada is even more regulated but then maybe its not.” This is a high school level of argumentation. You might have well have just said, “Well, that’s just what I think. You have your opinion and I have mine. So there.”

When appropriate, I am not against the use of insults. When someone trolls, time and time again, bringing up the same topic with the only purpose of insulting a good deal of the member’s of this forum, when someone asks questions (Why is the left like this?) but they are only rhetorical and he will not listen, or sometimes even read, well-thought out replies, when someone criticizes, even insults others for not knowning much about a topic and then will not take criticism himself, when the tables are turned and it is he who does not know enough about a topic to make a competent post, when someone willingly admits to abandoning all sense of fairness and decency and good manners in his posting, then yes, I feel insults are fully and completely justified.

But anyway, let’s end this. I’m sure Fred wants to get this thread back on topic. A ha ha ha ha ha ha.

What were we talking about again? I forgot.

[quote=“fred smith”]What were we talking about again? I forgot.[/quote]Knowing you, Iraq, Iraq, Iraq and Iraq and how successful it was. Michael Moore just made a film that mentions Iraq and you mentioned MM, so maybe you can hijack the thread onto Iraq that way.

But I didn’t really bring up Iraq in this thread. I think my thread was shanghaiied by others. Damn them! The impertinence. They will never work in this town again. Don’t they know who I am?