I think Lien’s use of this kind of language shows his elitist tendencies but I don’t think he intended to say that there is a license to kill Chen. Surely the intention of the speaker has to be taken into account when translating.
He showed poor judgment by using a phrase that could be read by many Taiwanese to mean that Chen should be killed especially since Chen was the victim of an assassination attempt.
I’ve gone around and sampled the opinions of 10-odd college-educated native speakers. Their readings by and large reflected their political views (green->‘murder, kill’; blue->‘censure, condemn’). One green guy with a very solid background in classical Chinese (grad degree in Tang history) said that Lien almost certainly meant ‘condemn’ but was misusing the phrase which really does mean ‘kill’ in most contexts.
He also mentioned that most people think Lien is actually very poorly educated but incredibly arrogant about his academic qualifications. Many people in academia believe that Lien had someone ghost write his PhD thesis and there have always been many questions about how someone with a very thin record of publications got to the chair of Taida’s political science department.
I think Lien’s use of this kind of language shows his elitist tendencies but I don’t think he intended to say that there is a license to kill Chen. Surely the intention of the speaker has to be taken into account when translating.
He showed poor judgment by using a phrase that could be read by many Taiwanese to mean that Chen should be killed especially since Chen was the victim of an assassination attempt.
I’ve gone around and sampled the opinions of 10-odd college-educated native speakers. Their readings by and large reflected their political views (green->‘murder, kill’; blue->‘censure, condemn’). One green guy with a very solid background in classical Chinese (grad degree in Tang history) said that Lien almost certainly meant ‘condemn’ but was misusing the phrase which really does mean ‘kill’ in most contexts.
He also mentioned that most people think Lien is actually very poorly educated but incredibly arrogant about his academic qualifications. Many people in academia believe that Lien had someone ghost write his PhD thesis and there have always been many questions about how someone with a very thin record of publications got to the chair of Taida’s political science department.
his remarks seem to echo those of mencius a long time ago pertaining to regicide. the sage held that killing a tyrant wasn’t regicide ( a no-no as per the five relationships) because the tyrant loses the mandate to rule.
i’m sorta surprised CSB has lasted this long. his insurance policy (madame lu) is an ace in the hole.
Every time Lien opens his mouth, he degrades himself further while reducing his and his party’s chances of keeping the support of anyone other than the most rabid, dyed-in-the-wool pro-unificationist.
His predictable bitter pronouncements last night on losing his case in the High Court were yet another such example. Soong’s equally loathsome chorusing of Lien’s rancid rage was only to be expected, but what on earth were Wang and Ma doing up there on the podium with them? Uncomfortable as they both looked, they must have been fully aware of how much they were damaging themselves politically by endorsing Lien’s repulsive performance with their presence.
My disappointment in Mayor Ma continues to increase by the day, but I’m very glad that the three KMT bigwigs for whom I have the highest regard-- Siew, Chiang and Wu – chose to stay away and markedly disassociate themselves from Lien and Soong’s deranged posturing.
According to the “Dictionary of Chinese Character Variants” (compiled by the Mandarin Promotion Council , Ministry of Education), the character 誅(zhu) has six meanings. http://140.111.1.40/yitia/fra/fra03825.htm
(1). 討伐 punitive expedition
(2). 殺戮 murder, kill, e.g.
Since what Dr. Lian had said is “人人得而誅之”, which just is the example of the second meaning of 誅 in the above quotation. Although 誅 also has other meanings such as “punish” or “blame” in 口誅筆伐, it is clear 誅 means “murder” rather than “blame” in “人人得而誅之”. The interpretation of “人人得而誅之” should be “anyone has the right to murder him” in the classical Chinese language.
After having a close look at this, it’s clear the three versions were clearly differentiated - one was a headline, one was a subhead and the other the quote in question. How the first two can be considered “versions” of a quote when they are clearly not meant to be taken as such is extremely unclear.[/quote]
The headline and subheading don’t claim to be direct translations of the quote, but they claim to describe what Lien said. The headline reads, “Murder Chen if he wins election suit, Lien says.” I can only see that being read one way – that Lien encouraged someone to murder Chen if he wins the suit. If Lien never made such a statement, if he only said it is possible someone might murder the president or something like that, then the headline is false.
[quote]If there is an objection to the actual translation (the “third” version), then what is it? How is it wrong?
But I say again, why has this thread decided to morph into another mocking of the local English-language press when the real issue is Lien’s obnoxious comments - and the fact that Ma Ying-jeou and Wang Jin-pyng will not disown them? Must absolutely everything be seen through the prism of TT, CP, TN?[/quote]
Well for me and a lot of other foreigners, quotes from locals must be seen through those murky prisms because we can’t read Chinese, a fact which I regret. I hesitate to immediately accept a translation by the TT, because I know they make many factual errors and probably poor translations. I tend to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty, so I am reluctant to believe he made such a stupid statement just because the TT, or you, says that he did, which is why I greatly appreciate the excellent analysis on this thread by those who can translate from Chinese.
Does Taiwan have any laws concerning verbal incitements to kill the president?
I know America does and Canada has murky legislation about the same question about our prime minister.
So, if it is concluded that this was his intended meaning, or if it’s concluded that no amount of “what I really meant to say” matters, would Lien Zhan face any legal punishment?
First off Lien cited a chapter in ROTK (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) where the assassination attempt totally failed and is a common idiomatic statement.
Second the phrase Lien used is quite common among Chinese expressing removing the unjust.
Third this is a much better way of expressing discontent, then the DPP LP and snot comments. DPP have much to learn in eloquent methods of expressing themselves in Chinese.
Fourth, how come only the English speaking Taidu community thinks much of the comment. The Chinese news sources have already let the comment run the natural news cycle or haven’t even pick it up at all.
[quote][National States Rights Party leader Joseph] MILTEER. The more bodyguards he has, the easier it. is to get [JFK].
[Wire-wearing Miami Police informant William] SOMERSETT. What?
MILTEER. The more bodyguards he has, the easier it is to get him.
SOMERSETT. Well, how in the hell do you figure would be the best way to get him?
MILTEER. From an office building with a high-powered rifle.
SOMERSETT. They are really going to try to kill him?
MILTEER. Oh, yeah ; it is in the working.[/quote]
Source: transcript from the Report of the House Select Committee on Assassinations.
Kennedy was assassinated two weeks after the above conversation. To my knowledge, Mr. Milteer was never charged with anything having to do with his assassination.
[quote][T]he die is set, and Malcolm shall not escape, especially after such evil foolish talk about his benefactor, Elijah Muhammad. Such a man as Malcolm is worthy of death.[/quote]–Louis Farrakhan, 1965, two months before the murder of Malcom X. As far as I know, Mr. Farrakhan was never charged in Malcom X’s death.
[quote]On November 2, the entire civilised world will be praying, praying Bush loses. And Sod’s law dictates he’ll probably win, thereby disproving the existence of God once and for all. The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us. John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr - where are you now that we need you?[/quote]–Charlie Brooker, October 23, 2004, originally in The Guardian (but the piece has been removed from The Guardian’s website). I don’t know if this one even made the news in the States.
And of course there’s Henry II: “Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest [i.e., Thomas a Beckett]?”
People say mean things. Sometimes they mean them, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes the words cause things to happen; sometimes they don’t. I dunno.
[quote=“ac_dropout”] First off, Lien Chan cited a chapter in ‘‘ROTK’’ where the assassination attempt totally fail and is ***a common idiomatic statement.
Second, the phrase Lien used is quite ***common among ***Taiwanese expressing “removing the unjust”.
Third, this is a much better way of expressing discontent, then the DPP L.P. and snot shit comments. The DPP has much to learn in eloquent methods of expressing themselves in Chinese.
Fourth, the Chinese language news sources have already let the comment run the natural news cycle already or haven’t even pick it up at all.[/quote]
Good post, ac dropout. Sets the record straight here.
[quote=“X3M”]
Very well o ye Expert(s) of Classical Chinese…BUT…What Lien said will be understood by most Taiwanese as a call to try to kill the president if they have an opportunity.
–Does that make his statement any better?[/quote]
no, X3m, you are wrong again. MOST Taiwanese did not perceive it as a call to KILL Abian. MOST perceived as Feiren has explained.
But here’s another take: a Taiwanese friend said to me:
"You know how some gangsters in Taiwan, or just any men, feel that if they cannot keep their girl, they will KILL her so that nobody else can have her? This happened last week in Taichung, man killed his former girlfriend, maybe it was Keelung, so that nobody else could HAVE her.
Well, in crazy Lien Chan’s case, and Soong too, they feel that if they cannot win the election, NOBODY can win the election. This is the kind of insane thinking they are using. THey are both mentally ill. So their language will of course reflect their illness. Since they can’t HAVE their girl, ie, the election win, NOBODY can have her. Sick sick sick, but this is how these men think here!"
There was a cartoon in the paper yesterday that illustrated this.
Lien must realize that if somebody assasinates CSB, then Annette Lu would become president. Anybody who would wish for such a thing must be truly insane.
[quote=“lane119”][quote=“ac_dropout”] First off, Lien Chan cited a chapter in ‘‘ROTK’’ where the assassination attempt totally fail and is ***a common idiomatic statement.
Second, the phrase Lien used is quite ***common among ***Taiwanese expressing “removing the unjust”.
Third, this is a much better way of expressing discontent, then the DPP L.P. and snot shit comments. The DPP has much to learn in eloquent methods of expressing themselves in Chinese.
Fourth, the Chinese language news sources have already let the comment run the natural news cycle already or haven’t even pick it up at all.[/quote]
Good post, ac dropout. Sets the record straight here.[/quote]
Yes, I am convinced - NOT.
Smooth move to use ac_dropout’s post to back your claim…
[quote=“robert_storey”]Lien must realize that if somebody assasinates CSB, then Annette Lu would become president. Anybody who would wish for such a thing must be truly insane.
[/quote]
There’s no way on earth that she’d be acceptable or accepted as president in such circumstances, no matter what the constitution may have to say about it.
I’m sure it would be made clear to her in no uncertain terms that a new election would have to take place or some other mechanism used for selecting a successor to Chen, though she might be allowed to fulfil the role temporarily while the necessary arrangements were made. But if she tried to insist on taking over for the rest of Chen’s term (especially if there were much of it left), I’m sure she’d be quickly removed from power by a military coup or other means, which I’m sure most people of all political hues would wholeheartedly support. They could always institute proceedings for her recall, and I don’t doubt that they’d easily get the requisite majorities from both legislators and the electorate to have her removed in accordance with the law.
I have checked again, citing the discussion here whether the meaning should be “punished”, “demoted”, “censored”, “killed” or any other meaning, or taken out of contex.
As I don’t know any Chinese, my source recited two sentences where one had the meaning of cencored/demoted etc. and the other had the cleaer meaning of "anyone can kill him (that person). The sentence Lien quoted was from the “kill”, not from the “censored” part.
Then, of course, my source insist that we foreigners don’t really understand old classic Chinese, even if we studied a lifetime…
A source with access to old, higher ranking, KMT cadres with jobs in the civil service asked the old civil servants what they thought Lien meant. They unanimously interpreted Lien’s words to mean “kill”.
