its compromise. ROC is Taiwan and Taiwan is the ROC. Enough!
True agree on all fronts. I don’t see how that negates people wanting independence as an end goal though. Status quo now, independence when it’s politically feasible.
I’m sorry. I don’t agree. I’ve never seen a single Taiwanese person tell me they’re from the ROC. Everyone is still hardcore telling me they’re Taiwanese.
My opinion is many of the people in the socalled Huadu camp are just being practical and waiting for a better time to be Taidu. They’re lying.
Its the same thing though. Huadu(ROC is a separate independent country) and Taidu are the same thing. The enemy are beijing and people on the blue side who want to sell Taiwan out to Beijing (a powerful but vocal minority).
This
She didn’t move to the center. She’s the president of the ROC so she’s obliged to carry out certain things as the head of state. Anthem singing, flag raising etc. Do not fool yourself into thinking there is a single member of the DPP who does not support independence.
I’m not sure we are talking about the same thing. Everyone supports independence, but Taidu is Huadu.
She didn’t use to sing the song, DPP politicians didn’t use to wave flag and they didn’t claim the ROC. This is a recent development
When was the referendum?
Wise words
Aside from 1, the rest are all pretty false when it comes to Taiwan.
TI is repeatedly used by the DPP as a rallying call to win elections, and they do win elections. The reason why they can’t mention TI after being elected has more to do with the US than China. So at this point, the KMT would often point to that fact and say “voting for the DPP won’t bring TI either, so just vote for the KMT which can bring real financial benefits to you, sometimes personally.”
Number 3 and 4 are also inccorect observations when it comes to Taiwan. Taiwan has already forged a new identity, one that values freedom, democracy, and multi-culturalism, the last one at least on paper. The reality on the ground can be improved, but being independent doesn’t require Taiwan to be completely culturally different from China. I think the countries in the Anglo-sphere demonstrate that point pretty well.
Aren’t you German? I would definitely say Austria is much more similar to Germany than Taiwan is to China. Lots of countries are very similar to their neighbours, it’s nothing new. Taiwan and China comparatively are not all that similar.
Not sure where you are going with this comparison.
Ｎot even sure what my exact position is in this discussion.
Maybe
I see that formal independence is desirable for many, but it’s not an attainable goal now and in the foreseeable future. So, I see attempts like questioning the use of ‘Mainland’ when referring to China as rather pointless. Go to the negotiation table with China or go to war with China. If neither is appealing, back to the status quo and leave settling the issue for when the time is ripe.
Precisely. I had a DEEP blue 
manager who would always talk about how things were done in “Mainland China.” Given the fact that it was my first year in Taiwan, I knew nothing about politics, and his accent was a bit heavy, I always thought he was saying “men in China,” which I guess in a way is kind of the point.
I’m in agreement with you and don’t think saying anything different, but DPP don’t have to push independence as they are by definition a pro independence party. I dont think they mention it at all in campaigns recently, it just goes without saying.
Taidu and by that I mean by the 台聯台獨 changing the flag, changing names of things, everything is Taiwanese not Chinese, changing the constitution etc, is not a vote winner, which is why the DPP have moved away from it and embraced the ROC. I dont mean that Taiwanese dont feel independent, Taiwanese or feel separate from China
Of course taiwan is a multicultural country with its own identity. Didnt say otherwise, but that is not mutually exclusive from the ROC. There is nothing wrong with Chinese culture, just the ethno-nationalist version of it pushed by the KMT and CCP. I feel like disinicization is waning now, especially as the KMT are not a threat.
Fourth point is correct, which is why Tsai moved away from Taidu and moved to the center. So many people have congratulated her for taking that position, and her approval ratings have gone up.
TI is article 1 in the DPP’s party platform.
The party song is “Fly that green flag”, which hints at replacing the flag.
They don’t need to keep mentioning it, everyone who knows about the party understands that’s the ultimate goal of the party, at least until they remove that article, as has been proposed many times.
Changing the constitution had been a vote winner. They were able to add the referendum act into the constitution. It’s just that while the KMT relented and let the referendum act pass, the KMT also ensured it becomes near impossible to make any further amendments to the constitution.
Any elected president, whether pro-Taiwan or pro-China, faces the reality that the US doesn’t want any changes to the status quo.
I also think that entire argument you’ve made there about Tsai is false. First, Tsai wasn’t particularly pro-Independence to begin with. She was a bureaucrat working for the KMT government after all. She only entered the DPP in 2004 for a spot as the party list legislator as an academic scholar.
It’s the young Taiwanese voters who have became increasingly vocal about independence and the desire to be separate from China. Therefore, Tsai gradually moved towards the Taidu side from the center, since young voters were key to both her election victories.
But she has moved more to the center than three years ago. Even Lai who is supposed to be more deep green has embraced the ROC.
But thats the current consensus, Taidu is Huadu and Huadu is Taidu. ROC Taiwan or Taiwan ROC is the reality or the best possible compromise. Most important is that consensus that everyone wants to be independent.
Tsai said:
Thats a negative interpretation, whereas I see it as a positive move. As one green commentator said, 'if you keep faking something, it becomes the reality". This will be the direction moving forward, the ROC will blend into Taiwan and ROC Taiwan will just become the reality. You still need to deal with history and have transitional justice, but you can see the change in society from the way that young people are now embracing the ROC flag whereas 5 years ago were rejecting it.
You really can’t see they’re being two-faced?
While two-faced is often negative. In this case, it’s with support.
As the vice-president, Lai would have to change his tune to placate the Americans. I guess you would say that CSB was far too pro-TI as a president, but from my viewpoint, CSB toned himself way down as president for the US, it was just that the Americans were too busy kissing the CCP’s ass back in the 2000s to tolerate any pro-Taiwan movements.
Except nobody is calling it the ROC flag in common parlance.
It’s the Taiwanese flag. They’re stealing it from the KMT.
In normal life. They’re Taiwanese.
They live in the country of Taiwan.
They use the New Taiwan Dollar.
Can’t change the flag? Co-opt it. Steal it. Make it lose its meaning.
This isn’t centrism, it’s theft. It’s twofacedness. Once the opportunity comes, the masks come off.
But ROC Taiwan is still Pro Taiwan. Its the same thing, just embraces the decent parts and people who identify withe ROC and unify against the real enemy across the straits.
For example take Teresa Teng. She was dyed in the wool ROC till she died. She was also probably the Taiwanese singer with the most integrity and backbone. She refused to go to put a step on PRC soil until they had democracy, despite offers of untold riches for a few concerts. Few artists who identify as Taiwanese have that level of integrity.
Under the ROC Taiwan umbrella everything good can be embraced.
You are parroting the KMT line, they think she is stealing the flag, the song and the ROC name. I think its more of compromise and redefinition of it