we have a small band of renegade kung fu students who get together at Chiang Kai Shek Memorial hall on Monday, Wednesday nights from about 930 to 1100+, and we’ve added Saturday evenings (430-630ish?) as well.
It’s a good time for people who work evenings, and it’s right on the MRT.
What we do:
Our goal is to develop Kung fu as a realistic interaction between two people, not a performance art. We train with the idea that in an actual fight, your opponent would to be faster, stronger, and more aggressive than you are. If you couldn
I’ve been looking around on the web at some Chinese sites for karate and various types of crane and monkfist boxing in Taiwan. It seems like the selection isn’t very good, and the prices are exhorbitant. I’ve never had to pay for martial arts lessons, and I don’t believe that martial arts is something that can be bought or sold. I had a wonderful teacher when I was living in China who would never accept a dime from me, and he taught me some really wild stuff. I took enough notes to keep me busy for a long time. One of the good things about karate (if you have a reasonably good foundation already), as Chojun Miyagi pointed out in his 1934 “Karate-Do Gaisetsu” is that karate can be done by yourself. I have yet to find any legitimate, serious, old-school martial arts in Taiwan, so I’m considering just flying to Okinawa occasionally for instruction. They still have some bad-ass cats over there.
As for what’s best, although I’ve studied a variety of stuff, my base system has always been Okinawan karate (Isshinryu). I practice the “Koryu” (old-style) way, not the modern Japanese modified mechanical sport crap. Real Okinawan “toudi” is a SINO-Okinawan martial art (emphasis on the Chinese part), highly effective, and it’s not the punch-kick-block stuff that most people see in Japanese karate. It involves lots of grappling, seizing, vital point attacks, joint dislocation, neurological shutdown attacks, etc. … really nasty stuff. I also like what I’ve seen of various forms of crane boxing, like Feeding Crane and Whooping Crane, and Monkfist boxing … but the only decent schools I’ve seen for those have been in Hong Kong. Qinna is also fun stuff, but I haven’t seen any schools for that either. I learned a bit from a colonel in the PLA Airforce when I was in China … nasty stuff, and very effective. If anyone wants to know what “real” Okinawan karate is supposed to be like, do a Google or Yahoo search under “Koryu Uchinadi”.
You are welcome to come and visit my evening classes
Wed, Fri, 6:30 to 8:00 Chang kai shek memorial hall, opera house.
The class is in Yang style Taichi Chuan. The focus of the class is fitness, relaxation, Pushing Hands. We explore applications from time to time, but it is not the main focus of this class.
[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]
As for what’s best, although I’ve studied a variety of stuff, my base system has always been Okinawan karate (Isshinryu). I practice the “Koryu” (old-style) way, not the modern Japanese modified mechanical sport crap. Real Okinawan “toudi” is a SINO-Okinawan martial art (emphasis on the Chinese part), highly effective, and it’s not the punch-kick-block stuff that most people see in Japanese karate. It involves lots of grappling, seizing, vital point attacks, joint dislocation, neurological shutdown attacks, etc. … really nasty stuff."[/quote]
For anyone (besides LittleBuddha) who is reading this, I’ll say this about karate:
Japanese karate (especially Shotokan):
Moving Zen. Beautiful. Elegant. Powerful. Great for training the mind and body.
Can be effective for self defense when taught properly and mastered. Problem is it’s seldom taught properly and rarely mastered.
Having said that, if an 8th dan Japanese shihan offered to teach me, I wouldn’t say no. There something to be said for that Moving Zen.
Okinawan karate (Isshinryu):
Not exactly “Moving Zen”. No one would call it elegant. Compared to Japanese styles and certain kungfu systems, it looks rough and unfinished.
But there is, I think, a beauty in its simplicity: It is combat-oriented and you don’t have to master it for it to be effective.
And for those who are into grappling arts: Isshinryu karate includes blocking, striking and grappling techniques.
In short, Isshinryu karate (indeed all real karate) is a complete martlal art.
[quote=“Steve Zodiac”]Okinawan karate (Isshinryu):
Not exactly “Moving Zen”. No one would call it elegant. Compared to Japanese styles and certain kungfu systems, it looks rough and unfinished.
But there is, I think, a beauty in its simplicity: It is combat-oriented and you don’t have to master it for it to be effective.[/quote]
Then you haven’t seen a real Isshinryu master (of which there are VERY few) performing kata. Most of the Isshinryu around nowadays (even in Okinawa) has been heavily influenced by both Japanese budo concepts as well as the influence of the U.S. Marines who trained on Okinawa and brought it back to the United States. Things like cadence counting, standing at attention, ranked lines, multiple repetitions in unison, blah blah blah are all either Japanese and/or U.S. Marine inventions, not true Okinawan martial arts. When performed properly, it doesnt look “rough” or “unfinished” at all.
But you’re right, it’s a style meant for combat, not for physical education classes (like Itosu and Funakoshi were aiming at in bringing karate to Japan) or tournament competition. It’s also not like Uechi-ryu that takes years and years of physical conditioning. You can teach someone to defend themselves (effectively) in a relatively short period of time. For the “art” part to reveal itself, you need much longer of course.
The Naha-te derived styles of Okinawan karate derive power mainly from “chinkuchi” (a combination of ki, correct body dynamics, timing, and focus, all working in combination to develop “explosive” power), which is trained through Sanchin (an Okinawan form of “iron-shirt” qigong. The Shuri-te schools derive power through focusing on the koshi (pelvic girdle). This is trained through Naifuanchi. The secret of Isshinryu is that it uses both.
For anyone interested in learning serious fighting/self-defence skills, feel free to drop me a line at TaiwanBJJ@hotmail.com or call me on 0920 620 109.
We offer classes in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, No-Holds-Barred Striking (basically a mixture of the most effective elements of muay thai and western boxing) and Combat Wrestling (NHB Striking mixed with wrestling and judo takedowns and no-gi Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - reality fighting).
The techniques we teach have been proven in reality fighting situations. Our instructor is Andy Wang, a professional NHB fighter on the Purebred team under Enson Inoue; if it doesn’t work, he won’t teach it. He teaches in English and Mandarin.
We provide a safe, friendly environment for learning serious fighting skills. If you mention Forumosa.com, your first class is FREE!
See you soon,
Sean McCormack
General Manager
Taipei Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy
For the record:
Wing Chun kung fu and Isshinryu karate are serious, practical and efficient methods of self-defence.
If you want to know more about Isshinryu (Okinawan combat-oriented karate), contact Little Buddha, who posts regularly on this site.
http://www.geocities.com/littlebuddha_tw/ISSHINRYU_KARATE.html
http://www.geocities.com/littlebuddha_tw/ISSHINRYU_KARATE.html
If you want to learn Wing Chun, you can do no better than Sifu Lo Man Kam. He is the nephew of Grand Master Yip Man and “kung fu elder brother” of somebody named Bruce Lee.
And before this turns into a debate about the relative merits of Bruce Lee, let me just say this:
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Yip Man became famous, long before the Little Dragon thing, because he kept beating up bad guys in China.
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Sifu Lo Man Kam knows a thing or two about reality-based self-defence and combat skills: He literally wrote the book on police kung fu in Taiwan.
His school is in a lane near Dunhua North Road and BaDe Road in Taipei. Phone: 2578 - 2405.
This old web site has some background info
So probably in the wrong forum but what is the best martial art?
Years ago I studied Shotokan Karate, I found it very square and rigid
My friend did Taekwondo, he says its great but not for close quarter combat( you need some room to swing those legs) and anyway most fights go to ground
I have heard several people say Jujitsu as this is good in both the stand up and grappling on the ground
As for Kung Fu, which I have been studying for the last year with Tai Chi and Five Animals, is an unknown. I would not be confident trying to use what I have learned in a combat situation as of yet anyway
Best for what? That is the question. Martial arts can legitimately be pursued for a whole range of different reasons. For example:
For health/exercise
To participate in an interesting part of Chinese culture
Simply as a recreation or a social activity
For “spiritual”/self development/character building
As a competitive sport
As street defense
What I advise people to do is decide what your purposes are and how much time/money/effort you intend to devote to it. Then one can intelligently ponder what to do. I would add that the instructor is far more important than the system. Here is the formula:
Good Instructor+ Good System=ultimate best choice
Good Instructor + mediocre system= second best
Poor Instructor + good system= third choice
Poor Instructor + poor system= stay home and learn from dvds
The other thing I would add is there is lots of utter nonsense written about street self defense. Buyer Beware.
Now to make this fair I need to mention my choices. I think Andy Wong of the Taipei Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school is the finest martial arts instructor in Taiwan in terms of real combat. Having said that, I still practice traditional Chinese martial arts but for reasons other than street combat. Taiwan has some very fine traditional Chinese martial arts teachers. Taiwan is also plagued by complete fucking idiots claiming to teach traditional Chinese martial arts. The ratio is roughly 1:50. Buyer Beware (oh I guess I said that already).
If you really want to learn to fight—get a gun or a knife. No, seriously if you really want to be able to handle yourself unarmed then you need a system that mixes:
Western boxing
Western wrestling
Thai kickboxing and
Brazilian jiu jitsu groundwork
Take care,
Brian
There is no best martial art. Let me explain…
Many argue that Muay Thai is the best (most effective) form of ‘stand up’ fighting there is. I tend to think along these lines as it appears to pure in that it contains no useless moves. However, 2 flaws are startlingly evident:
- Muay Thai training is centred upon 1 to one fighting and would (perhaps) be less effective in a multiple opponent situation.
- What about the ground? Many fights (outside of the ring) go to the ground. Muay Thai does not provide for these situations.
Regarding Ju Jitsu and other predominanly floor oriented systems, again no useless moves and reality oriented. But like Muay Thai it doesn’t really account for multiple oponents- While you are one the ground tying up or choking out one guy- his friends could be stamping on your head. Also- in their purest and simplest forms ground based fighting systems are weaker in striking-standing up that is.
Perhaps you are really asking what would be the outcome if someone from x martial art was put against someone from y martial art? In that case you can look back to the early UFC tournaments and you will find that Brazillian Ju-Jitsu domintated in the early days; Royce gracie seldom used strikes and tried to bring the fights to the ground asap. But then later the fighters from other styles wised up and learned how to fight on the ground and today we have more balanced fighters with great prowess in both long and short range fighting and both standing up and on the ground. Those that never adapted were left behind…
As for gong fu, (in general) I’m not an authority, but I’m aware that it does deal with multiple opponents. However, in terms of competitive fighting which is the closest thing to the street- San Da is supposedly the competitive wing of Chinese Gong-fu. I have seen a lot of fights and my conclusion is that it appears to be a very confused version of Thai boxing and is very scrappy and untidy (I might add that I was part of a Muay Thai team to fight against San Da fighters in Hong Kong).
I wonder about people who get defensive over their martial art and claim that theirs is the best-
Additionally people want different things from their martial art such as health (mental and physical), to be able to defend themselves, or to compete-and they therefore will have different perspectives of what is the best- nevertheless- it is only the best for THEM.
Back to real fighting for a second- the kind of martial art that one studies is only a part of what makes them an effective fighter- Character, instinct, self belief, and others are all up there.
The multiple-opponent aspect always comes into play when discussing which martial art is best. Sadly, the exponents of martial arts that claimed to be able to defeat several opponents at the same time proved ineffective against even a single opponent in the early UFCs.
Any good Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu instructor will tell you that BJJ is not going to help you against multiple opponents; however, what you can do with BJJ quite realistically is to call out the biggest guy of the group. Once you’ve beaten him, his friends should think twice … or at least I would hope!
UK fighter Lee Murray, a seasoned street fighter, professes that the best way to handle multiple opponents is to back up against a wall so as not to be surrounded and then knock out the assailants one by one. Unfortunately, not everyone has his natural ability to knock people out (he knocked out the then UFC champion Tito Ortiz in a bar fight), but that appears to be the best advice I’ve heard yet.
Nowadays, the best fighters in reality fighting events practice several arts, and I would have to agree with Brian that a mixture of boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling and BJJ is an extremely effective combination. Another important point to remember is that sparring practice is the ONLY way to learn how to use any martial art in a real situation. If you’re not sparring hard, you’re simply not learning how to fight.
If you have any questions about this, feel free to come and meet our Chief Instructor, Andy Wang. He is very informed on the subject and has a number of wins in reality (no-holds-barred) fighting events, so he does know what he’s talking about.
Having said that, as Brian so wisely points out, it all depends what you want to accomplish, and each martial art practiced here in Taiwan has its merits.
Respectfully,
Stray Dog
TNT,
My comment doesn’t really answer your question. However, I think you need to address why you want the most effective martial art. I’ve been studying aikido for 7 years or so here in Taipei. I would have to say that it’s not usually taught in the best manner (mainly because we almost never spar). On the other hand, I’m 33yrs old and have never been close to getting into a fight. Thus, I don’t feel this terrible urge to learn the most practical/effective martial art in the world. On the other hand, I’m currently looking into other martial arts, because I recognize that aikido, like ALL martial arts, has its blind spots. Personally, I’d prefer judo over bjj, but that’s mainly because I’d love to go to Japan some day. I want to learn something more about Asian [martial arts] culture, and I doubt that bjj could provide that. At the same time, judo probably isn’t as effective as bjj. Although I’ve thought about checking out Andy Wong’s school, more likely than not, next I’ll try iaido, a very traditional form of Japanese swordmanship. Absolutely worthless in a fight unless you carry a sword on you regularly. 
Oh well. That’s my decision.
You’ve tried Shotokan and didn’t like it, etc. As you know, you can always try another martial art for about 6 months or a year. That’s about when you should take a close look at your situtation and see if you’re satisfied with the school. I use martial arts classes in Taiwan as a good way to make friends and practice Chinese (and pick up a little Japanese when I can from aikido terms, etc. I try to stay away from places with lots of foreigners). Unless you’re planning on becoming a marine or a bouncer, you don’t need the most effective martial art. What you need is something that you can stick with and get good at. If you really don’t like the school/martial art/instructor, you’ll be dissatisfied and want to quit. Figure out what will satisfy you. Effectiveness? camaraderie? Learning a martial art is like dating. You don’t need to date a drop-dead gorgeous girl/guy to be happy.
To me, proper attitude and commitment are more important. I did a little wrestling in junior high and quit. I did taekwondo in high school for 1.5 years and quit. Big mistakes. I’d rather be a 5th degree black belt in taekwondo than a yellow belt in bjj. Find something you like and stick with it. Chances are, if you do ever get in a fight, it’ll with some drunk asshole and not a martial artist studying a more effective art than you. Take care.
We don’t have yellow belts … unless you sweat a lot on your white belt!
White, Blue, Purple, Brown and Black. Purple takes about 5 to 6 years, which I guess is the equivalent of a 5th dan in TKD (?). For those of us who practice BJJ, achieving blue belt status is something to be extremely proud of. Purple belts are gods, so you can imagine how honoured we feel to have a Black Belt here. It took Andy about 9 years to get his, which is little quicker than the norm.
We have a TKD black belt training with us (a genuine, good one) and I think if you ask him he may actually be more (or at least equally) proud of his BJJ blue belt than he is of his TKD status.
We do feel it’s a shame to see 8-year-old kids proudly wearing their black belts on their way to TKD class. But, it works for the businesspeople who own the schools, I guess.
Just my observations, anyway.
Respectfully,
Stray Dog
I agree completely. Having a black belt is not just about skill, it is also about having a certain level of maturity to go along with it. 8 year olds just don’t have it.
My aikido instructor does not award any black belts to people younger than High School age.
Must say, I think the Taipei BJJ Academy is great (after about 8 weeks of going). However, I must also stress that this is comparing it to the year of judo I did when I was seven, so I am by no means massively informed in this area. I haven’t done much of the Jiu-jitsu, sadly, due to schedule clashes, but I have been going fairly regularly to the striking and wrestling classes. Fantastic workouts, we learn new stuff all the time. And it’s effective.
One of the best parts has been the sparring sessions at the end of class. We only go at 75% (at least, that’s what we’re told to do!) but for a newbie (can I say that? Maybe “fresh meat” is more appropriate?) like me that is more than enough. I find it such a great experience. And I get smashed about quite comprehensively, so it’s not like I’m speaking from the vantage point of one who is particularly successful. My teeth are still aching from a straight right I took last Monday. When things get a bit too much, it is slowed down, so there’re no worries of insane damage being done. Andy is very good with how he chooses the fights as well - sometimes with people at your level, other times with people who are going to rock you (like last night… thanks for that!)
As Stray Dog says, there are people with different training histories who attend classes, people who you can watch and learn from. Everyone is really friendly as well, no grudges or bad feelings. I enjoy the fact I can laugh about it afterwards, with the guy who has just put me on back.
Anybody interested in movement and martial arts is welcome to come out and join us. We are a small, rag-tag bunch of men and women (around 10 or so) who meet out at Chiang Kai Shek memorial every Monday and Wednesday night (Thursday as well starting in December) from 9-11pm.
What do we do? Well, we concentrate mostly on wing chun, but we have a strong emphasis on proper balance, power development, body isolation and general principles of movement. After you can get the movement stuff down, we are totally into fighting principles and finding the most efficient way to fight possible. We steal from a wide variety of disciplines from Bagua, jujitsu, yoga and even hip-hop dancing, but maintain a strong emphasis on learning by principle.
We don’t do uniforms, belts and whatnot, and the class has been free for the past two years. We will institute class fees soon, but they will be modest (something like NT$1,000 a month) and will include a free box of betel nut.
I run this class, but it is very free form and we have people with diverse backgrounds who have a common love of martial arts and babbling about fighting, dancing, alexander method, music, yoga, and drinking. I have a background in wing chun (10 years), Thai boxing (2years), aikido, karate, wrestling and salsa dancing. I teach in English and Chinese.
Feel free to drop by the class anytime to check it out, participate or instigate a duel to the death. We are there from 9-11pm on Mon or Wed on the ground level in front of the northern performance hall. Close to the Xinyi and Chungshan corner. Look for the white dudes. (there are women and Taiwanese people, they just don’t stand out as much.)
Hope to see you out there.