http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101017/wl_afp/germanymuslimreligionimmigration
This is just the tip of the iceberg, the first cracks in the dam.
Same thing occurring here in Oz I’m afraid. Whilst it worked in the past, it has failed epically in the past 10 years. Minorities not contributing, being a burden on welfare, forming ghetto’s and not integrating…sigh…the wonders of a multi cultural society.
Damn immigrants. I can’t imagine why they would not want to live in the neighborhoods where people talk about how they are generally unhelpful and a burden. 
suiyuan: Some people may not like East or Southeast Asians, but generally, they’re quite well accepted. They don’t cause trouble and they’re perceived as hard working. When my father ran a business, before he retired, he used to love employing East and and Southeast Asians (mostly, he ended up with Chinese or Vietnamese). They didn’t give him shit and they worked hard. They were conscientious all round. Likewise, if you look at the top achievers in education every year in my state, aside from a handful of white guys (often Jewish), the list is all Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian and Sri Lankan. Also, interestingly, studying a language like Latin is a predictor of high scores in other subjects. Studying a language like Turkish or Arabic is a predictor of low scores in other subjects. Ask not just wider society, but any employer, about how most Muslims are perceived. Even leaving aside the whole “terrorism” thing, the answer will be that they’re indolent and insolent. They want to argue with you as to why nothing is ever their fault, including the fact that no one wants to hire them, but will hire Chinese in a heartbeat. It’s also the difference between how many East or Southeast Asian nations deal with post-colonialism and how many Muslim nations deal with it. I’m sure East and Southeast Asians aren’t exactly happy about colonialism, but their narrative seems to be that they’re going to better themselves so they can outdo their former masters. The Muslim world’s narrative is that they’ve been so hard done by, and where available, they’ll pump oil out of the ground, but generally speaking, they’re wallowing in doing fuck all most of the time (which is why Taiwan is Taiwan, and pretty well every Muslim nation without oil is a shithole). I would say that the problem is partly a European one though as European nations have nurtured these traits in many Muslims. People are beginning to tire of it though. I would too.
An individual comes to apply for a job, moves in next door, or attends the same class. If people come at that person with a series of preconceived notions and treat that person “as if” they are going to fit the stereotypes, it creates an unpleasant situation. If, however, that person is treated as an individual and then dealt with according to his/her own behavior, you might begin to find that they are just as diverse as other groups of people. You have not outlined a problem with “Muslims”, but a problem with employers 
Muslims come from a variety of countries-and in case you’re not aware, not all of them like each other. I learned a lot about what Lebanese don’t like about Iranians and Iraqis, for example. You are using a pretty general stereotypes to cast a net over an awful lot of people. I have know Muslims from Indonesia, Lebanon, Iraq, and quite a few other places. the fact that they were Muslim was the least of what I experienced. The countries they came from was more telling, but their individual personalities were all quite distinct. Not one was lazy, though there was one guy I didn’t like at all-not because he was Muslim, but because he was just kind of a prick. His boss, a fat white American guy, was also a prick. I never thought “fat white Christian guys are all pricks.”
Edit: For the record, some of my best friends are fat white Amercian Christians 
The above post reminds me of what I often heard from older people when I was growing up-they were just talking about black people: lazy, insolent, nothing is their fault, and they will do as little as possible because they feel like victims. Funny how these same adjectives make their way across cultures to describe targets from a variety of places.
[quote=“suiyuan31”]An individual comes to apply for a job, moves in next door, or attends the same class. If people come at that person with a series of preconceived notions and treat that person “as if” they are going to fit the stereotypes, it creates an unpleasant situation. If, however, that person is treated as an individual and then dealt with according to his/her own behavior, you might begin to find that they are just as diverse as other groups of people. You have not outlined a problem with “Muslims”, but a problem with employers
Muslims come from a variety of countries-and in case you’re not aware, not all of them like each other. I learned a lot about what Lebanese don’t like about Iranians and Iraqis, for example. You are using a pretty general stereotypes to cast a net over an awful lot of people. I have know Muslims from Indonesia, Lebanon, Iraq, and quite a few other places. the fact that they were Muslim was the least of what I experienced. The countries they came from was more telling, but their individual personalities were all quite distinct. Not one was lazy, though there was one guy I didn’t like at all-not because he was Muslim, but because he was just kind of a prick. His boss, a fat white American guy, was also a prick. I never thought “fat white Christian guys are all pricks.”
Edit: For the record, some of my best friends are fat white Amercian Christians
The above post reminds me of what I often heard from older people when I was growing up-they were just talking about black people: lazy, insolent, nothing is their fault, and they will do as little as possible because they feel like victims. Funny how these same adjectives make their way across cultures to describe targets from a variety of places.[/quote]
Very well said suiyuan31 :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:
Yes, I am sure that some Taiwanese would say the same about foreign English teachers in Taiwan.
“Merkel Says German Multi-cultural Society Has Failed”
Time for a rant.
The area nowadays called Germany lies in the center of Europe and has always seen people from many ethnicities and cultures pass through and some of them stay. I would bet that most Germans carry genetic material from many parts of the world. And i have met people in Germany who had come there from Yugoslavia, Turkey, Greece, Spain, and who worked in the service industry or ran their own shops and managed to communicate in minimal German. But their children, whenever i had a chance to talk to them, were fluent in German - certainly they would be integrated/integrating, no?
So, who are then the people who are not integrated/integrating in Germany? Who are the people Merkel is aiming at?
Many people talk about Muslims. I don’t doubt that there are problems with Muslims (notably “radicalized” Muslims). But the main problem, I think, is that the Germans believe in “blood” (ancestry) making people special and that people should be given (or not) rights based on their ancestry. I think it was a big mistake to allow millions of people into the country who claim German ancestry but who don’t speak German. On the other hand, for the longest time children and even grandchildren of Turkish residents in Germany, even though they had grown up in Germany and were fluent in German, were denied citizenship (fortunately that seems to have changed).
Japan has made the same mistake on a smaller scale. And Taiwan? Isn’t perceived ethnicity (ancestry) the main ciriterion by which people are judged? I find it absurd that an ABC who hardly speaks any of the country’s languages should be able to get a passport just because her/his parents were Taiwanese at some time, but a Philippina who has worked in Taiwan for 12 years and has become fluent in the language and knowledgable of the culture of the area where she works has no chance in hell to get Taiwanese citizenship.
France and Britain have a similar problem for a different reason: they believe that they can hold on to their former glory by giving people from the former colonies citizenship rights. Well, look at the related disaster areas in those countries.
To conclude: for their own benefit, countries should judge potential immigrants on their ability to integrate in terms of language and culture and not on their assumed ethnicity or the fact that they hail from a part of the world that once “belonged to the empire”. Canada, for example, chooses its immigrants based on language ability, education, and skill and explicitly not on ethnicity - and they don’t have those problems like Germany, France, or the UK.
But i doubt Japan and Taiwan will learn from Canada.
End of rant. 
Of course, the problem is all with how others perceive and treat Muslims, which is why the Islamic world is so famous for its Nobel Laureates, or its inventions or what it manufactures. Oh, wait a minute, aside from oil, 1.4 billion people produce absolutely fuck all of worth to anyone. Likewise, East Asian and Muslim immigrants in France, Germany and the Netherlands are both known for having similar levels of educational achievement, as are their children. Likewise with employment levels, violent crime levels, etc. Except they’re not. Cut the PC crap. Merkel isn’t calling out Vietnamese immigrants for a very good reason.
There are two ways out of this, and neither is nice for the PC Brigade. The first is to be terribly mean and demand these miscreants get their shit together, preferably by not encouraging/allowing them to get on welfare. The second is to brush it under the carpet until it gets worse and worse and everyone starts gnashing their teeth when a populist far, far right party rises out of nowhere (or predictably out of an economic crisis) and the shit really hits the fan.
Before anyone makes the analogy, no, this is not like the 1930s. The Germans ripped the heart out of their culture and scientific fields when they killed the Jews or drove them off to America. If every Muslim packed up and moved tomorrow, it would not have the same effect. Not even close.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Of course, the problem is all with how others perceive and treat Muslims, which is why the Islamic world is so famous for its Nobel Laureates, or its inventions or what it manufactures. Oh, wait a minute, aside from oil, 1.4 billion people produce absolutely fuck all of worth to anyone. Likewise, East Asian and Muslim immigrants in France, Germany and the Netherlands are both known for having similar levels of educational achievement, as are their children. Likewise with employment levels, violent crime levels, etc. Except they’re not. Cut the PC crap. Merkel isn’t calling out Vietnamese immigrants for a very good reason.
There are two ways out of this, and neither is nice for the PC Brigade. The first is to be terribly mean and demand these miscreants get their shit together, preferably by not encouraging/allowing them to get on welfare. The second is to brush it under the carpet until it gets worse and worse and everyone starts gnashing their teeth when a populist far, far right party rises out of nowhere (or predictably out of an economic crisis) and the shit really hits the fan.
Before anyone makes the analogy, no, this is not like the 1930s. The Germans ripped the heart out of their culture and scientific fields when they killed the Jews or drove them off to America. If every Muslim packed up and moved tomorrow, it would not have the same effect. Not even close.[/quote]
You’ve obviously never heard of chemistry or the experimental method or migratory patterns of birds or the telescope or windmills or algebra or the countless contributions to the arts, literature, music etc etc. Other than all of those contributions that they have made, you’re right, Muslims have made no contribution to the world and produced nothing of worth to anyone.
I don’t know whether you had an experience with a Muslim person at some point that causes you to have a view of them as a group that doesn’t match any form of reality or you’re simply a bigot. I hope it’s the former and you work your issues out sometime. Perhaps an extended trip to a predominately Muslim country would open your eyes to how life really is.
Well, a good CBC survey a few years back showed that most Muslims in Canada were satisfied with their life, wanted to fit in, and felt that few Canadians were against them. 17% said many Canadians were hostile toward them compared to 50% in Germany. 75% said just a few were against them. 85% of Muslims in Canada are satisfied with the direction of the country compared to 44% in Germany. Coincidence?
As for fitting in:
Well Taiwan is certainly better for foreigners. Foreign guys only get knock with a tire iron when then try to pick up a locals girlfriend here. In Germany, if you are walking down the street speaking your native language you may get knocked in the head for simply being a foreigner.
[quote=“cfimages”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Of course, the problem is all with how others perceive and treat Muslims, which is why the Islamic world is so famous for its Nobel Laureates, or its inventions or what it manufactures. Oh, wait a minute, aside from oil, 1.4 billion people produce absolutely fuck all of worth to anyone. Likewise, East Asian and Muslim immigrants in France, Germany and the Netherlands are both known for having similar levels of educational achievement, as are their children. Likewise with employment levels, violent crime levels, etc. Except they’re not. Cut the PC crap. Merkel isn’t calling out Vietnamese immigrants for a very good reason.
There are two ways out of this, and neither is nice for the PC Brigade. The first is to be terribly mean and demand these miscreants get their shit together, preferably by not encouraging/allowing them to get on welfare. The second is to brush it under the carpet until it gets worse and worse and everyone starts gnashing their teeth when a populist far, far right party rises out of nowhere (or predictably out of an economic crisis) and the shit really hits the fan.
Before anyone makes the analogy, no, this is not like the 1930s. The Germans ripped the heart out of their culture and scientific fields when they killed the Jews or drove them off to America. If every Muslim packed up and moved tomorrow, it would not have the same effect. Not even close.[/quote]
You’ve obviously never heard of chemistry or the experimental method or migratory patterns of birds or the telescope or windmills or algebra or the countless contributions to the arts, literature, music etc etc. Other than all of those contributions that they have made, you’re right, Muslims have made no contribution to the world and produced nothing of worth to anyone.
I don’t know whether you had an experience with a Muslim person at some point that causes you to have a view of them as a group that doesn’t match any form of reality or you’re simply a bigot. I hope it’s the former and you work your issues out sometime. Perhaps an extended trip to a predominately Muslim country would open your eyes to how life really is.[/quote]
Don’t be too hard on GuyInTaiwan. What do you expect from someone who things that the only way to get educated and qualified to do a job is by attending a university?
infoplease.com/ipa/A0855617.html
Germany has a long simmering problem with its Turkish “guest workers”. I believe Merkel is bitching about them mostly?
And yes Taiwan should revamp its immigration policy to not be race biased. Anyone irrespective of their ethnicity who has legally resided on Taiwan for over 5 years or was it 7 should be able to apply for citizenship. But isnt it like that now already?
Or did i miss something? Is there hidden bias against south east asians, etc so that its not possible for them? And if so what are the laws they are using to achieve this?
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Of course, the problem is all with how others perceive and treat Muslims, which is why the Islamic world is so famous for its Nobel Laureates, or its inventions or what it manufactures. Oh, wait a minute, aside from oil, 1.4 billion people produce absolutely fuck all of worth to anyone.[/quote]Is it PC to point out that this is a bigoted statement? You are trying to defend your dislike of Muslims, who you continue to cast your net over here, by responding to others as PC. There is a valid criticism of PC statements, but you don’t make the case here. Instead, you use the term to defend bigotry. Nice try…no one’s buyin’ it…although I wouldn’t be surprised if you can get others who agree with your statements that Muslims are worthless and pile up on those of us who don’t agree as PC.
[quote]Likewise, East Asian and Muslim immigrants in France, Germany and the Netherlands are both known for having similar levels of educational achievement, as are their children. Likewise with employment levels, violent crime levels, etc. Except they’re not. Cut the PC crap. Merkel isn’t calling out Vietnamese immigrants for a very good reason.[/quote]The reason is that she isn’t pandering to the crowd that hates Vietnamese because they are a smaller bunch, and they probably cross-over with the Muslim hating crowd anyway. She was pandering to a group that supports the idea the Muslims are inferior, like you are arguing here.
[quote]There are two ways out of this, and neither is nice for the PC Brigade. The first is to be terribly mean and demand these miscreants get their shit together, preferably by not encouraging/allowing them to get on welfare. The second is to brush it under the carpet until it gets worse and worse and everyone starts gnashing their teeth when a populist far, far right party rises out of nowhere (or predictably out of an economic crisis) and the shit really hits the fan.[/quote]It’s a good thing that not everyone in government sees solutions as simply as you. Do you honestly believe the only choices are to ignore them or be mean to them? That would make sense coming from someone who continues to argue that they are inferior. For those who don’t think that, there may be other options that come to mind.
[quote]Before anyone makes the analogy, no, this is not like the 1930s. The Germans ripped the heart out of their culture and scientific fields when they killed the Jews or drove them off to America. If every Muslim packed up and moved tomorrow, it would not have the same effect. Not even close.[/quote]Again, makes sense coming from someone who believes that Jews have worth and Muslims don’t. Funny that it was ok for them to come in and do grunt work when the country needed it. Now that the economy is tanking and such jobs are scarce, the problem is with the people brought to do the jobs?
Let me agree with you on just one point: the analogy of Jews in the 1930’s and Muslims today in Germany is flawed. There is another analogy that works, though: you use the same rhetoric that was used against Jews, but use it on Muslims instead:they are unproductive drains on society. Nice job :bravo:
GiT: Be serious. If you are coming on here to promote and defend the idea that Muslims are non-productive people as a whole, you are a bigot and it’s not PC to point that out. I’m not going to entertain anything you’ve said to this point as serious-no more than I would entertain the idea that black people, Jewish people, or any other group is collectively unproductive.
I do not agree with David Frum, so please don’t rip me a new one. However, even though I do not share his views, I thought it was an interesting read.
About the writer:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/18/frum.merkel.multicultural/
cfimages et al: Firstly, I’m not a bigot.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot
The important word there is any, although I realise that word could actually be interpreted in at least two ways in the above sentence. I’ve already outlined that I am impressed by some other communities and particular aspects of their cultures.
cfimages: Yes, the Muslim world was once great. Far greater than the Western world, in fact. If I’d been talking about Europeans in the 12th Century, I would have been calling them a bunch of miscreants also. I’m not talking about the 12th Century though. I’m talking about the 20th and 21st Centuries, and clearly, the Muslim world has been severely lagging.
This is not about race. This is not about a good or bad experience. It’s about the success or failure of cultures and states. I have argued elsewhere on many an occasion that I believe much of the West has been falling into decay for some time now. At some point, it will be eclipsed, maybe within my own lifetime. I believe any group or culture, can, at any time be evaluated as a whole on its merits and defects. Obviously not every Muslim is a failure, just as not every East Asian is a success. Look at these two profiles though:
-
The person won numerous mathematics competitions in high school, graduated top of his class and then went on to attend an elite university, where he graduated with honours and later became a highly successful actuary;
-
The person was often truant in high school, at which times he was involved in petty crimes. After dropping out of high school, he existed mostly on welfare and graduated to more serious crimes, before serving time in prison.
Would anyone seriously claim that if we knew that both were the children of immigrants in say, Germany, and one was of Arabic background and one was of Chinese background, that it would be a 50/50 shot for who matched which profile? Would anyone really claim that? Isn’t that what the German banker who started this whole controversy was on about, and that Merkel was continuing?
Mucha Man: I suspect that, as someone has previously mentioned, Canada goes about immigration (and probably welfare also) in a much different way to Germany, which is a large part of the issue, as I have already mentioned.
That said, just because people may claim they want to fit in, doesn’t mean they are actually trying. I may claim that I want to fit into Taiwanese society, but the reality is that I’m pretty lazy about learning Chinese, and I’m not particularly into singing karaoke or Hello Kitty or whatever else people are into here. Hell, I don’t even try to fit into Australian society because I’m not particularly interested in sport. When people ask me which AFL team I support, and I tell them I don’t, they assume that I support an unpopular team, and find it really strange when I tell them that, no, I don’t actually follow AFL.
On this point, I would say that many foreigners in Taiwan don’t try to fit in at all (myself included), and I can completely understand why that would piss Taiwanese off. As someone previously mentioned, many Taiwanese have bad opinions about Westerners here. I think they’re fairly justified. Obviously, not every English teacher here is someone who turns up five minutes before class and hasn’t done any preparation, and is hungover (I’m not). Yet enough of them are that it gives everyone a bad reputation. The solution, in my mind, is two-fold. Firstly, Westerners here need to discourage this behaviour from other Westerners. Secondly, Taiwan probably needs to change its immigration policy so it doesn’t accept so many cretins. Likewise for Germany and its problems.
steelersman: Why don’t you keep that debate where it belongs? Or were you hoping that I’d be too busy countering others that I wouldn’t notice when you tried to get a cheap shot in?
suiyuan: No, seriously. Please show me all of the Muslim Nobel Laureates, or please show me what, aside from oil, the Muslim world (or at least that part of it that doesn’t reside in Malaysia and Indonesia) produces that is of great importance to the world. If all of China (about the same population as the whole of the Muslim world) were to disappear into a black hole tomorrow, the world would be in a right state. If all of the West, which accounts for less than the Muslim world in terms of population, were to disappear tomorrow, the world would be in a right state. Hell, even if Switzerland, which is miniscule compared to the Muslim world, disappeared tomorrow, it would cause more of a fuss. Probably if Easter Island disappeared tomorrow, more people would be upset. Aside from oil, would anyone actually miss the Muslim world?
Your points about why Merkel is doing this are valid. There probably aren’t anywhere near as many Vietnamese as Muslims in Germany, and there probably is a certain crossover for those who dislike both, although I think five years ago, if you’d polled Germans, or Europeans generally for that matter, about their attitudes towards Vietnamese and their attitudes towards Muslims, you’d probably have found that the percentage of people who have issues with Vietnamese would have been similar then to now. Not so with Muslims. This is why I think that Merkel (who strikes me as a fairly stodgy kind of politician who doesn’t really have any kind of axe to grind), is getting in on this. The reason she is targeting Muslims, instead of say, Vietnamese, is partly for the reasons you mention, partly perhaps she sees some political expediency to it (though to be honest, it might have been more politically expedient at this point in time to remain out of the debate or to give some kind of bland, nebulus response), but also because Vietnamese are probably regarded as very productive members of society by most Germans. If anything, they’re probably regarded as over-achievers.
My point about the solutions to this issue is that a large part of this problem is to do with how Germany has done immigration and welfare, as others have pointed out. Germany now has the option of revamping its immigration and welfare policies (and probably various other things too) so that it either selects for the right kind of people (i.e. keeping the riff-raff out) or it changes the incentives for those already there or when they arrive so they don’t become a burden on the wider society, or both. That’s option one, but it would, to some extent, be a repudiation of the European concept of the welfare state (as well, as others have mentioned, of the concept of a “volk”, though that word is probably not used anymore for obvious reasons), and an admittance that they’d gone down the wrong path. That’s what I mean by being “mean”. I don’t mean “mean” as in round them up and re-open Auschwitz (even though that’s in Poland). I mean “mean” in the sense of kicking them off welfare and expecting higher standards of them in school and wider society. Surely you were deliberately misreading what I wrote there.
The other, is indeed to pretend that a serious public debate about the future direction of German society and what it means to be German (I for one, wouldn’t be so flash on the idea of “Christian values”, given that I’m not a Christian, so on that point, I take exception with Ms Merkel), and possible radical change of direction in immigration and welfare policy is not something that should be broached. The danger of that is that someone else would grab the ball and run with it, and that person would be an extreme right wing populist, and that would not be a good thing in any country, but would be extremely counter-productive for Germany, given its history.
What are the other options? Are you saying that Germany (and perhaps many other European societies) doesn’t need to take a good, hard look at itself?
As to your next point, it’s not that I don’t believe Muslims don’t have worth. I would be appalled if anyone started rounding them up and herding them off to a revamped Dachau. However, I can certainly say that not all groups are equal. Maybe in your world, there’s no first, second and third, and every kid gets a medal, but that’s not how it is in my world.
Yes, the problem is with the people brought in to do the grunt jobs (though it’s not only with them). No one is entitled to anything (which also applies to white Germans who think they are somehow entitled to a job over anyone else). That means that if Muslims brought in to do grunt labour in good times don’t want to find themselves on the scrap heap in bad times, they need to make sure they are largely inexpendable by doing well in school and getting good careers so they graduate from being grunt labourers.
Jews clearly weren’t unproductive drains on society in Weimar Germany. They actually punched well above their collective bodyweight in virtually all fields of human endeavour, which is why I said that Germany ripped the heart out of its society by killing them off or driving them away. This is pure speculation, but if Germany had actually retained its Jewish scientists, the outcome of WW2 may have been quite different. Yet clearly, this is not the case with Muslims, who are disproportionately represented amongst the ranks of those with poor education, the unemployed and those involved in crime.
Individually, we can make all sorts of claims. I’m sure there’s a guy out there with only one leg who can run faster than me. There are probably a dozen such people. Collectively though, who would you bet on being the faster runner, a random guy with one leg or a random guy with two legs? What if we took all of the people with two legs and took their average running speeds and compared those with all of the people with one leg and took their average running speeds? You may say that we shouldn’t make the bet to begin with. Yet that’s not how life works. Every day, from the smallest to the largest level, we are forced to discriminate about the best way to use our resources. That includes the kind of people admitted into a society and the incentives they are offered once they are there.
Nice job on your part for continuing to deliberately miss those points though.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]suiyuan: No, seriously. Please show me all of the Muslim Nobel Laureates, or please show me what, aside from oil, the Muslim world (or at least that part of it that doesn’t reside in Malaysia and Indonesia) produces that is of great importance to the world.[/quote]Didn’t I just say I didn’t want to play this game? Defending people from remarks that are ridiculous on the face? What standards are you using for “great importance?” What is the great importance of Germany? Australia? The US? As a whole, it’s a meaningless question. But since you insist, it took me about 15 seconds to find this via a google search: [quote=“Wikipedia”]Mohamed ElBaradei is the fourth ethnic Egyptian to receive the Nobel Prize, following Ahmed Zewail (1999 in Chemistry), Anwar Sadat (1978 in Peace) and Naguib Mahfouz (1988 in Literature).[/quote]Not that this needs to be used to validate Muslims, but since you posed the standard…Oh, and I found Abdus-Salam, Orhan Pamuk, Shirin Ebadi, Muhamed Yunnus…
[quote]If all of China (about the same population as the whole of the Muslim world) were to disappear into a black hole tomorrow, the world would be in a right state. If all of the West, which accounts for less than the Muslim world in terms of population, were to disappear tomorrow, the world would be in a right state. Hell, even if Switzerland, which is miniscule compared to the Muslim world, disappeared tomorrow, it would cause more of a fuss. Probably if Easter Island disappeared tomorrow, more people would be upset. Aside from oil, would anyone actually miss the Muslim world?[/quote]I don’t find it useful to discuss people disappearing into black holes-it’s the intellectual equivalent of “who would win in a fight between Superman and Chuck Norris?” And are you arguing against your first statement above?
[quote]My point about the solutions to this issue is that a large part of this problem is to do with how Germany has done immigration and welfare, as others have pointed out.[/quote]I agree with this…but that’s not what you were saying.
[quote]Germany now has the option of revamping its immigration and welfare policies (and probably various other things too) so that it either selects for the right kind of people (i.e. keeping the riff-raff out) or it changes the incentives for those already there or when they arrive so they don’t become a burden on the wider society, or both. That’s option one, but it would, to some extent, be a repudiation of the European concept of the welfare state (as well, as others have mentioned, of the concept of a “volk”, though that word is probably not used anymore for obvious reasons), and an admittance that they’d gone down the wrong path. That’s what I mean by being “mean”. I don’t mean “mean” as in round them up and re-open Auschwitz (even though that’s in Poland). I mean “mean” in the sense of kicking them off welfare and expecting higher standards of them in school and wider society. Surely you were deliberately misreading what I wrote there.[/quote] :roflmao: You make up a new definition of a word, don’t explain what you mean (the other mean) by it, and then say I am deliberately misreading? That’s an interesting definition of “mean”, lol. I didn’t misunderstand you, it was your lack of explanation and probably wrong word choice. Revamping policies is reasonable, and not necessarily “mean.” [quote]The other, is indeed to pretend that a serious public debate about the future direction of German society and what it means to be German (I for one, wouldn’t be so flash on the idea of “Christian values”, given that I’m not a Christian, so on that point, I take exception with Ms Merkel), and possible radical change of direction in immigration and welfare policy is not something that should be broached. The danger of that is that someone else would grab the ball and run with it, and that person would be an extreme right wing populist, and that would not be a good thing in any country, but would be extremely counter-productive for Germany, given its history.[/quote]Who is ignoring the issue? It seems to be front and center in Germany and has even extended to our little forum. [quote]Are you saying that Germany (and perhaps many other European societies) doesn’t need to take a good, hard look at itself?[/quote]Actually, I’m saying just the opposite. The government needs to look at themselves, what they did, and how they are reacting to it without any rhetoric. This is their situation. No one is denying they have a problem on their hands-but they created it, funded it, and now people are blaming the immigrants. [quote]As to your next point, it’s not that I don’t believe Muslims don’t have worth. I would be appalled if anyone started rounding them up and herding them off to a revamped Dachau. However, I can certainly say that not all groups are equal. Maybe in your world, there’s no first, second and third, and every kid gets a medal, but that’s not how it is in my world.[/quote]I just choose to look at individuals and give first, second and third based on measures that have nothing to do with ethnicity. If someone is a prick, they are low on my list. I don’t care where they are from. If someone is mean, I don’t have them over for coffee (I’m using mean in the standard sense here, just to be clear ). [quote]Yes, the problem is with the people brought in to do the grunt jobs (though it’s not only with them). No one is entitled to anything (which also applies to white Germans who think they are somehow entitled to a job over anyone else). That means that if Muslims brought in to do grunt labour in good times don’t want to find themselves on the scrap heap in bad times, they need to make sure they are largely inexpendable by doing well in school and getting good careers so they graduate from being grunt labourers.[/quote]This doesn’t happen overnight. [quote]Jews clearly weren’t unproductive drains on society in Weimar Germany. They actually punched well above their collective bodyweight in virtually all fields of human endeavour, which is why I said that Germany ripped the heart out of its society by killing them off or driving them away. This is pure speculation, but if Germany had actually retained its Jewish scientists, the outcome of WW2 may have been quite different. Yet clearly, this is not the case with Muslims, who are disproportionately represented amongst the ranks of those with poor education, the unemployed and those involved in crime.
Individually, we can make all sorts of claims. I’m sure there’s a guy out there with only one leg who can run faster than me. There are probably a dozen such people. Collectively though, who would you bet on being the faster runner, a random guy with one leg or a random guy with two legs? What if we took all of the people with two legs and took their average running speeds and compared those with all of the people with one leg and took their average running speeds? You may say that we shouldn’t make the bet to begin with. Yet that’s not how life works. Every day, from the smallest to the largest level, we are forced to discriminate about the best way to use our resources. That includes the kind of people admitted into a society and the incentives they are offered once they are there.[/quote]I can’t really follow any of this. Let me try: Yes, the holocaust was bad. And there are probably some one-legged people who can run faster than you. Not sure that makes discrimination ok. But yes, I agree that people should have standards of some kind, just not of the stereotypical type. To assume a one-legged man can run slowly is reasonable; to assume a Muslim will be a bad employee because he is Muslim is not. [quote]Nice job on your part for continuing to deliberately miss those points though.[/quote]Nice job on not bringing them up in the first place instead of your (false) idea that without Nobel prizes, Muslims are not contributing to the world and other similar musings.
You might try reading what i wrote. 
Of course: the Vietnamese are an insignificant minority, and inspite of having been treated badly (especially since the re-unification of the two Germanies) they are not known to be misfits.
Merkel is not breathing a word about the “German” people (people of German ancestry who are not German by culture) from Russia or any of the ex-Soviet Asian republics, Romania, Moldova, etc. Also, Germans have had a hard time to accept people from Turkey from the get go. Young Turks ended up in ghettos because Turks were ghettoized as a matter of principle. It’s that easy. I’ve spent time with young Germans who worked hard to build bridges to young Turks, and they were treated with distrust and hampered at every step. But the problem reaches even deeper: years ago, the “Grey Wolves”, a fascist Turkish organisation, controlled the lives of many Turks in Germany and prevented them from integrating, because the language barrier allowed them to operate in that country with impunity. Especially girls were prevented from learning the language and making friends across cultural boundaries. Oh, and the German authorities let those “Grey Wolves” do their dirty work - and now the country reaps the results.
Must be. There can’t be any rational explanation.
Guy In Taiwan, there’s not much point trying to debate with you because you don’t seem to know very much about the Muslim world, nor are you interested in putting aside your obvious prejudices and opening your mind. I will leave you with a couple of basic demographic facts though.
The largest Muslim country is Indonesia so when you say “leaving aside those that aside in Indonesia” that like talking about the native English speaking world and leaving aside those in America.
Only about 20% of the Muslim world is from the Arab states which I guess is what all your oil references are about.