MOE Hiring Foreign Teachers - Is It Discrimination?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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MOE Hiring "Foreign" Teachers - Is It Discrimination?

  • Yes
  • Yes only if Taiwanese are not permitted to compete for those jobs
  • No
  • No because Foreigners are better at teaching English

0 voters

“The [Ministry of Education] (MOE) said after a recent forum that it hopes to hire between 400 and 600 foreign teachers for elementary schools… and proposed a remuneration scale for teachers of NT$60,000 to NT$90,000 per month.”

taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … /06/193525

I think this is just another discriminatory practice engaged in by the MOE and the ROC government. One of the prerequisites for becoming a ‘Foreign’ English teacher is that the applicant’s ‘native’ language must be English. But the criteria that the applicant is a “foreigner” appears to be the determinative or deciding factor.

What I don’t understand is why MOE needs to hire foreign teachers to teach English, and pay them $60k to $90k, which is 2-3 times the average salary, when Taiwan is packed with Taiwanese who speak fluent, ‘native’ English (and good at teaching). (Note: The proposed salary is almost 2 times what MOE pays Taiwanses English teachers who speaks ‘native’ English working in an elementary school).

Speaking from my own personal experience, I have seen many Taiwanese who speak fluent English (because they immigrated overseas), who are better teachers, and who have a masters degree receive lower salary than their foreign counterparts because, according to the “bushiban” owner or employer, they don’t look “foreign” – AND “clients want to see foreigners”.

I have taught English in Taiwan, where the practice is to pay teachers carrying Canadian, British or U.S. passport a higher salary than other foreigners (don’t ask me why). I showed them my resume and us passport, and they hired me right after the interview… Then I found out I was getting $20k less than the foreigners from South Africa …

The faulty presumption that if you look “foreign”, then your English must be BETTER is being reinforced by the government on the minds our childern. I am incensed that Taiwanese citizens are being treated as second class citizens, while the Dumb People Party (DPP) government openly and blatantly engages in discriminatory hiring practices.

What are your thoughts?

2

So, if they immigrated, are they Taiwanese or foreigners? Or is this just some more silly Taiwanese racism?

Look, when I studied Chinese in the US, my teacher was from Beijing. I didn’t want to be taught by a Westerner who had studied in Taiwan. I wanted someone who I KNEW could speak the language AND explain the culture.

Sorry, but it sounds like you’ve got a big chip on your shoulder. :unamused:

3

I am not sure if my experience counts because I have only been in Taiwan 10 months; however, the majority of Taiwanese that I have met teaching English can’t speak English like a native speaker. As I said, this is just my personal observation. And as for the higher pay, only an idiot would travel so far from home to earn less money regardless of what the locals are paid.
:unamused:

4

a few quick points:

1.) i have not seen anything on this issue which indicates that hua chiao from native english speaking countries would be paid less than non-asian foreigners. i would also expect hua chiao to make up a large percentage of the pool of teachers hired under this program. in that case, the government is being perfectly fair and NOT discriminating on looks.

2.) there are not that many “native” speakers of english in taiwan who do not carry a foreign passport. even the ones i’ve met who speak fluent english from just a couple of years abroad or uni study alone have noticable accents.

3.) there is nothing wrong with prefering native speakers as teachers. many people would rather that their kids be taught pronounciation by someone who can actually pronounce the words correctly.

4.) the government has nothing to do with the current racism in the hiring of teachers for buxibans. why save all your anger for the government when almost all of the current racism in the area is perpetrated by the taiwanese themselves? the poor natives are the ones who screwed you over because they would rather their kids be taught by a white south african than a hua chiao.

5.) finally, hiring someone because they’re a native speaker and have good pronounciation(even if they use weird words like “zed” :stuck_out_tongue: ) is NOT the same thing as hiring someone who looks white. you seem to be confusing the two and using them interchangably in your arguments.

5

[quote=“Flipper”]a few quick points:

4.) the government has nothing to do with the current racism in the hiring of teachers for buxibans. why save all your anger for the government when almost all of the current racism in the area is perpetrated by the taiwanese themselves? the poor natives are the ones who screwed you over because they would rather their kids be taught by a white south african than a hua chiao.[/quote]

I was making a comparison between the MOE’s proposal to to hire only “Foreign” English teachers (instead of English teacher or ‘native’ English teachers) for public schools and discrimination practiced by bushiban. What MOE is planning to do is no different from how bushiban hire English teachers – it’s called racial discrimination…

6

I’m wondering how many of the people who talk about local teachers english ability being good are from/living in Taipei.

The only person/people (stretch) I’ve met who have anything like native competency have been from there. Sorry about the generalisation but the English teachers I’ve met have not been much easier to talk to or have not spoken/understood better than some other citizens.

At the end of the day it is about the students. They deserve the best teachers they can get. Whether a native speaker with a B.SC who drinks/takes drugs every night will be a better teacher than a dedicated, hard working local who’s english is not as good is likely to be an ongoing debate.

The selfish part of me wishes regulations would be tightened but as has also been mentioned if only ‘qualified teachers’ were allowed here it would mean far less foreigners which could mean increased alienation and
boredom for those here.

If only there was someone who could test the teaching/English ability of prospective teachers. Volunteers Anyone?

7

[quote=“jasonlin”]

I was making a comparison between the MOE’s proposal to to hire only “Foreign” English teachers (instead of English teacher or ‘native’ English teachers) for public schools and discrimination practiced by bushiban. What MOE is planning to do is no different from how bushiban hire English teachers – it’s called racial discrimination…[/quote]

and like i already stated, many of those people hired will be asian. nationality and citizenship do not have anything to do with race, especially not when we’re talking about western countries with racial diversity that taiwan can only dream of.

buxibans(and their customers) practice racial discrimination actively by giving preference to white faces. hiring someone because of their passport regardless of race is NOT racial discrimination.

8

Interesting complaint, Jason; but I think you’re dead wrong.

A native speaker of English is someone raised speaking that language. For the most part, these are people who were born or spent the majority of their childhood in English-speaking countries (UK, Canada, US, New Zealand, Australia, parts of India, etc.).

Naturally there are some native speakers with other passports; e.g., those born outside of English-speaking countries who have one or more parent who is a native speaker of English and passed the language on. I imagine there are a few such people in Taiwan, but certainly not as many as you seem to suggest. (Someone who has taken a degree abroad may be fluent but they are not a native speaker of English.)

What Taiwan does have is a number of non-native fluent speakers of English (Europeans, South Africans, local Taiwanese who have studied overseas, etc.). The thing is, while studying for a number of years overseas may give one near-native proficiency, however good the English of these folks may be, very few acquire the accents, colloquialisms, and adaptability of native speakers.

I don’t care to suggest that the better fluent speakers of English could not perform just as well or even better than many native speakers in the classroom; but I do think that the government’s policy of prefering native speakers is a sensible one, if only because the reality is that nine times out of ten a native speaker is going to have a more desirable accent, vocabularly, and manner of speaking.

As for prefering South Africans to Taiwanese, I again must admit that this is sensible. Most of the ‘fluent’ South African English speakers I’ve met spoke more correctly than ‘fluent’ Taiwanese speakers of English. This is not always the case, but it is often so; and given that the government doesn’t have time to evaluate every case, selecting teachers on the basis of passport is still a reasonably efficient method.

As for concerns about racism, yes, of course this happens. Taiwanese society still identifies whiteness with proficiency in English. Often this is mistaken, and always distasteful. So what can you do about it? If you are a native speaker of English with a Taiwanese passport, refuse to accept a discrimintory wage. In time you’ll find a position that values your ability. And if not, well, I’m sure you’ll find that there are other countries or careers that will satisfy and value you, and like most of the foreign teachers here, you’ll make some sacrifices and lifestyle changes to pursue them.

As for the government, while there is no doubt some racial profiling going on, for the most part their preference for holders of passports from English-speaking countries is perfectly understandable on grounds that have nothing to do with skin colour and everything to do with linguistic ability. This is no excuse for racism, of course; but before you start waving around that sword, you ought to make sure that there’re real dragons to slay and not just a few nasty folks who duped you into accepting a low wage.

9

How do you define ‘native’ speaker? How do you define ‘native’? Are you an expert in ‘native’ English? Do you go by your college GPA or your grades in English and Literature? References? Recommendations? The number of words in your vocabulary? Writing samples? Performance on standardized tests?

It is a FACT that schools in Taiwan, including pubic schools & bushiban, generally hire (and compensate) English teachers based on the individual’s place of origin and race. To date, there are no clear established guidelines for evaluating each individual’s “English teaching” qualifications or ‘native’ English speaking ability. So when you say most Taiwanese teachers (you have met) “cannot speak English like a native speaker” what do you base your assertion on? Is it because English is your first language, so everyone in Taiwan should take your word for it?

I guess you have never been to New York then. What is your definition of a desirable accent? And according to whose standards? The Majority of native speakers in New York city speak with an accent (i.e. there’s Bronx accent, brooklyn accent, african american accent, mexican american accent, there’s new york accent, etc. Texans and people from southern states speak with different accents) What makes your accent superior or more desirable than Taiwanese or other accents?

[quote=“00Scott”]
… I do think that the government’s policy of prefering native speakers is a sensible one, if only because the reality is that nine times out of ten a native speaker is going to have a more desirable accent, vocabularly, and manner of speaking.[/quote]

Are you saying racial profiling and racial discrimination is permissible as long as it reduces the government’s administrative burdens and the results are desirable?

So you are saying we should just ignore racism.

A few folks? I think it is prevalant. Every Taiwanese English teacher must have been discriminated against at least once in their career. I’m going to try to put a stop to these B.S. discriminatory hiring practices.

There should be regulations requiring employers to disclose for each individual employee:
(1) why they are hiring a foreigner over a Taiwanese (both of whom are native speakers); and
(2) explain any salary discrepencies between foreign and taiwanese teachers (both of whom are native speakers); and
(3) criterion used in the evaluation and hiring process; and
(4) show that they have attempted with diligence to hire a Taiwanese teacher who speaks native English, but were unable to do so; and
(5) establish a ratio for native English speaking taiwanese and foreign teachers ; etc…

These steps will be effective in stopping unfair hiring practices.

10

Right on! The Taiwanese are racist, xenophobic and very discriminatory – most of us have known that for years. Guess it just took you a bit longer.

As well as your laws on employer disclosure, lets also have some on disclosure on gender bias in hiring and salary, as well as age bias, etc.

But why are you ranting about it here? I presume from the size of the chip on your shoulder that you are a local, so why don’t you complain where it will do some good?

And in 15 years here, I’ve yet to meet a non-ABC Taiwanese person whose English could be described as “native-speaker” level. I did work for Taichung Mayor Jason Hu for many years, who would be the first to admit that although he did his masters and PhD at Cambridge University and Edinburgh University and lived extensively in Washington, his English could in no way be described as “native-speaker” level.

If you think otherwise, it only goes to further illustrate how much that chip is obscuring your vision.

11

For me, a native speaker is defined as someone whose first language, and operational language, is whatever they are referring to as their ‘native’ language. Learning a language as a child and using it for the rest of your life is a lot different from studying abroad or at a local university regardless of the number of years you do it. I claim no expertise in any language; however, since I am a native speaker of English I understand many nuances of the language that are totally lost of those who have only studied it at the university level. I could study Chinese or Taiwanese for the next 20 years while living in Taiwan and I would never qualify as a native speaker.
And no you do not have to take my word for it when I say most teachers I have met can’t speak like a native speaker. As I said, it is a personal observation based on the number of mistakes I have heard taught in the classroom (and I am referring to very basic mistakes, not grammar or spelling but simple communication).
But enough said, we are just beating a dead horse.

12

Right on! The Taiwanese are racist, xenophobic and very discriminatory – most of us have known that for years. Guess it just took you a bit longer.[/quote]

How is that racist? American companies cannot hire foreigners without disclosing such information. Americans don’t think it is racist. Where are you from originally, maybe I can help you find some comparable regulations in your home country.

And because you knew Taiwanese are racist and you are still there, I must assume you enjoy being on the receiving end of some kind of discrimination?

Because Hu flattered you by saying your english is better than his, now you are the standard in which we must evaluate our level of nativeness?

That’s not the issue i’m raising. I said if there were two people applying for the same job. One native english speaking foreigner and one native english speaking taiwanese, I can guarantee you that the foreigner will get the job and given a better compensation package. On it’s face, it looks like racial discrimination, but we don’t know. That’s why we need disclosure laws requiring employers to explain their actions.

13

Listen everybody, Jasonlin is Taiwanese. He identifies with that group and therefore shares it’s strenghts and weakensses. He is in all aspects a troll in regards to the views expressed in this post.

See no matter how well-reasoned or well thought your arguments explaining the current situation and how we can all better it. Jason will not listen and will twist and misconstrue your words. He’s Taiwanese, he can’t help it. Logical arguments and constructive criticism of him and his views will be met by petty questions and misconstruing of your words. His greatest shortcoming is himself. In other words, the only person holding Jasonlin back is himself. Hopefully someday, he’ll figure this out.

As too his arguments, I think 00Scott made some very good points. He was fair and look how Jason responded. In the 10th post, 00Scott’s first 2 quotes explains the situation and Jason attacks it without a viable alternative. 00Scott’s 3rd quote is attacked and yet again(surprise surprise) Jason puts words in his mouth and misconstrues 00Scott’s intent.

He then goes on about racial discrimination against Taiwanese English teachers, which happens to have Taiwanese people as the source of discrimination(relevant facts are never important when a Taiwanese argues, unless they bolster their case and not yours). I don’t know about you, but everyone I know has been discriminated in some way at least once in their life. You learn to deal with it and overcome.

As far as Native speakers having a more appropriate accent. I don’t see thisa as important. Two things are important as far as English teachers in Taiwan.

  1. Can they have a conversation, know mostly what is said, how to express themselves and can other people comprehend what they are saying
  2. Can they teach it

Accents are a bullshit issue. They get tossed around a lot, and make most people lose sight of the goal. The goal is to improve English use in Taiwan. Anything else is just mental masturbation. Jasonlin loses sight of the fact and thinks that it’s Taiwanese discriminating against other Taiwanese problem. Parents want a choice and are willing to pay more to have their children taught by a “cracker.” Nothing wrong with this, a person should be allowed to spend their money as they wish as long as it’s within the legitamite legal boundaries(I would add moral in my personal definition) of the nation’s laws. So when a decison is made by a parent as to which buxiban/anchingban to send their child to, race of the teacher does play a part(unfortunately) in their decision.

I would agree with what Jasonlin said about the MOE and ROC carrying out a discriminatory policy, against the foreigners. The pay scale is low for what would most likely be a 40-60 hour week and add into this a large scale of useless paperwork, that no one will read. It becomes quite unbearable. The foreigners will also not have the luxury of any of the civil servant perks. Strange how Jasonlin forgot to mention this, as these are what make people pay large bribes for teaching jobs(around $120,000NT). Add in all those little perks and the real figure for the Taiwanes teachers approaches well within the range of what foreigners would be paid. Also they have changed yet again, to where the foreigners would be instructing the Taiwanese English teachers. In all the program hasn’t started yet and is in everybodies opinion, “One big clusterfuck.”

Then we have this bastion of salvation Jasonlin, trolling our forum, telling us the evils of a system that we only marginally take part in. He extols the evils of racism and discrimination of his own people against themselves and expects, get this, sympathy from us. When we are already discriminated against, why would we give a f%$# about how Taiwanese discriminate against each other. He tells us of his and many other Taiwaneses’ difficulties while waving around his US passport(which he can get) openly and hiding behind his Taiwanese passport(which we will never be able to get) when things don’t go his way.

I said it before and I’ll say it again
This is just Chinese people being Chinese!

CYA
Okami

14

jason,

american is not a race. canadian is not a race. british is not a race. please stop throwing around terms like racial profiling in situations where they do not apply.

you might want to look up the word “race”. it doesn’t mean what you think it means.

who exactly are you pissed at? the government, the buxibans, or the taiwanese in general? you seem to be shooting off in every which direction.

15

And what about me, Jason – I can’t get a job here teaching Mandarin, even though I’m a native speaker. What kind of a crock is that?

Jason should (but of course won’t) write: “Damn whiteys come over here, take our jobs, our women, blah blah blah…”

Give yourself a treat, laddie. Go out and buy some new flip-flops and a box of binglan. Maybe get a nice tight perm, too.

16

First off, I am not a native speaker of English myself, but I’m a whitey. When I was studying Chinese in Tainan I taught English at buxibans too, and I got paid the same as native speakers. No news here, just want to mention this in order to make jasonlin feel better.

However, I think the decision to go by nativeness or non-nativeness when it comes to hiring English teachers does make sense to me.
Jason, you and me might be mistaken for native speakers in our writing (as long as you don’t look too close for those tell-tale mistakes non-natives make, even if it is just repetitive sentence patterns or unusual use of certain phrases), but when we open our mouths and talk for say 10 minutes to a native-speaker, it becomes obvious that we are not.

I guess you studied in the States for quite some time, and by the end of this stay your English was really good. The same applied to me.
The point is, while my pronunciation was really good back then, it became worse and worse as time went by. The longer I stayed in a non-native environment, the more German my accent became again.
Also, my use of English vocab and grammar became more and more “germanized” again.

This doesn’t happen to native-speakers, no matter how long they stay in a foreign country. I have lived abroad for years now, but I even maintained my local German accent.

On another note, I want to bring up the problem of chosing those “native-speaking Taiwanese” you are talking about all the time.
How is this to be done? Tests? Certainly not, since according to their test scores Taiwanese high school students might have a better vocab and understanding of grammar than many natives.

You might say, “How about an oral exam-kind-of-thing?” And here things become tricky. Who will have the final word on who is native enough? Foreigners? Do you think the MOE will give foreign devils a word in decisions of such importance?
So it will be locals, of course, which brings us directly to the problem of guanxi and hongbaos. If I am connected to a powerful man, I will get the job. If I am willing to fork over 200000NT, I will get the job. Simple as that. If you are denying that reality, it just proves that you are wearing those pink glasses.

Just my 2 Euro cents.

17

They should disregard nationality and concentrate on English ability. While foreigners may tend to have better English than Taiwanese, it’s not always a black-and-white issue. My English ability is as good or better than anyone on this board, but I couldn’t apply for one of these jobs and many others. Someone from South Africa or Europe would not have a problem, however, simply because they hold a foreign passport. I’ll agree that it’s not about race, however.

18

[quote=“00Scott”]
What Taiwan does have is a number of non-native fluent speakers of English (Europeans, South Africans, local Taiwanese who have studied overseas, etc.). [/quote]

I just want to state that South Africa is considered as a native english speaking country by the international community. Granted most south africans HERE are not native speakers. South Africa is a country with a diverse population and ,believe it or not, quite a large immigration quotient from other african countries which ,of course, leads to the situation of having people with less than perfect english.It is a similar situation to spanish-speaking americans, I think.Anyway just wanted to add my two cents worth. And do I need to say it? Obviously I am South African :smiley:

19

I’m sorry, but I am frigging tired of this South African bashing.

OOScott (what’s the 00, your IQ?) and Paogoa and the rest of you uninformed gits, qualify what you say about South Africa.

South Africa’s official language is English. And yes I know most South Africans are not native English speakers, but there are still three million of us who are, and that’s about the population of New Zealand.

When Nelson Mandela addressed the masses for the first time after being released, he spoke English.

A few noteworthy South African English speakers:

J.M. Coetzee has won the Booker prize twice. No one ele has.

Nadine Gordimer, Nobel prize winner for literature, and Alan Paton, author of Cry The Beloved Country, are both native English speakers.

Are they qualified to teach English?

Arrrrrhhghggggggggg…

20

[quote=“t.ukyo”]Do you think the MOE will give foreign devils a word in decisions of such importance?

So it will be locals, of course, which brings us directly to the problem of guanxi and hongbaos. If I am connected to a powerful man, I will get the job. If I am willing to fork over 200000NT, I will get the job. Simple as that. If you are denying that reality, it just proves that you are wearing those pink glasses.[/quote]

Why does MOE need input from foreigners regarding the English teaching program? Becasue Taiwanese are incapable of formulating their own educational policies?

Foreigners frequently complain that they face discrimination in Taiwan, but one crucial fact remains: laws only provide equal protection to citizens. Put differently, it is illegal for Taiwanese citizens to discriminate against Taiwanese, but it is NOT illegal for Taiwanese to discriminate against foreigners (non-citizens). This is not unique only to Taiwan or that Taiwanese are more BIASED against foreigners, but every western country has implemented legal/non-legal barriers against foreigners in one form or another.

As for connections, that is also not unique to Taiwan. Wealthy and connected people in western countries have more access to politicians, jobs, schools than an average individual. In U.S. whether you get a particular job depends on who you know or who is giving you the recommendation.

So, what reality am I denying? I think it is you who is denying the reality if you think giving some form consideration (in this red envelope) to get the job you want only happens in Taiwan.