As an American who has been to SA, the amount of non-English speakers one hears in the city seemed no different than walking around LA. In fact, if I were a local, I’d rather have a South African teach me English than hear my wannabe totally cool valley-girl crap US accent.
And as for Jason Lin, I remember a local bushiban telling me they didn’t want to hire me becuase they thought I was a huachiao (even though I am white). Attack the Taiwanese, not the teachers, honey.
Ok, Jason, so who do you think is capable of judging whether or not a Taiwanese applicant is proficient enough and speaks English as good as a native speaker?
Do you seriously think Taiwanese officials who don’t even speak English themselves can do that? The same people who appoint today’s mediocre English teachers in the public school system? Do you think they will give up or even share power with people who CAN make a reasonable judgement?
I don’t think so, thus the hiring practices will stay the same as today.
You might say, that corruption exists in western countries too, and that is right, but not to the extend it is prevalent here in Taiwan. I have seen things here…I mean, shit.
As soon as you establish a selection process that includes Taiwanese applicants, guess what will happen? The same old guanxi and hongbao hiring will kick in, and hundreds of lousy English teachers who happen to know someone or have deep pockets will get employed; in the end you will have achieved nothing at all and just created another pseudo-meritbased selection process.
The only way to avoid this trap is to say, we take only foreigners from certain countries, so at least we can be sure that they speak real good English. Then they can screen them for talent and qualifications as teachers and everything is well.
Also:
Now Jason, you might think your English is good enough to read the Wall Street Journal, but this is not what is needed when you teach elementary school children. What is needed is an intuitive grasp of English, something that very very few non-native speakers possess (you don’t, judging by the structure of mistakes you make in your posts).
In addition to that, I think only foreigners can start an overhaul of the fucked-up English education system here, if given some freedom to design curriculums themselves for example. I cannot imagine Taiwanese English teachers to suddenly start rocking the boat; they will just fit in, preserve harmony and everything will stay the same.
The foreign influx into the public school system might (a very very big might at that) be a long-needed catalyst for change, and that is just another reason to finally open the gates.
Then I guess according to you most people who graduated from U.S. primary & secondary pubic education system would also be classified as non-native speakers. (judging by how you evaluate my writing)
[quote=“t.ukyo”]
In addition to that, I think only foreigners can start an overhaul of the fucked-up English education system here, if given some freedom to design curriculums themselves for example. I cannot imagine Taiwanese English teachers to suddenly start rocking the boat; they will just fit in, preserve harmony and everything will stay the same. [/quote]
This is typical western mentality. If things don’t operate the way you think it should operate, then it must be “f**ked up.”
[quote=“Okami”]… Jasonlin is Taiwanese.
See no matter how well-reasoned or well thought your arguments explaining the current situation and how we can all better it. Jason will not listen and will twist and misconstrue your words. He’s Taiwanese, he can’t help it. Logical arguments and constructive criticism of him and his views will be met by petty questions and misconstruing of your words.
Then we have this bastion of salvation Jasonlin, trolling our forum, telling us the evils of a system that we only marginally take part in. He extols the evils of racism and discrimination of his own people against themselves and expects, get this, sympathy from us. When we are already discriminated against, why would we give a f%$# about how Taiwanese discriminate against each other.
This is just Chinese people being Chinese![/quote]
In sum, a TAIWANESE criticizing and questioning a FOREIGNER’s reasoning and asking for clarification of the statements made by a “foreign” poster is “miscontruing” and “twisting” the words of such poster. It is considered “trolling” and asking “petty questions.”
Let this be a lession to ALL Taiwanese… Thou shall not question what foreigners say, lest you risk becoming a trolling Chinese
Why?
The presumption (which no non-trolling chinese can overcome) is that every argument set forth by a foreigner is “well-reasoned” or “well-thought out.”
Can you teach English in wherever you are from? But I’m sure you can teach mandarin there.
[quote]
Jason should (but of course won’t) write: “Damn whiteys come over here, take our jobs, our women, blah blah blah…”
Give yourself a treat, laddie. Go out and buy some new flip-flops and a box of binglan. Maybe get a nice tight perm, too.[/quote]
Well since you brought it up. Inspite of the all the discriminations you alleged to have faced, you are still in Taiwan. why? Do you hear a calling? Is it easy money? Are the women easy? What’s your reason?
strange that in a thread about how racist TAIWANESE people are you are spending all your time attacking foreigners.
in fact you go out of your way to defend discrimination against foreigners as somehow acceptable because they aren’t citizens.
you skipped right over the morality of discrimination and launched into a “well, it’s technically legal” defense. i don’t think you’re in ANY position to whine about discrimination at this stage.
For starters, Jason, a native speaker would never make a mistake like this. And there are a couple of such mistakes in your posts.
I don’t doubt that your English is very good, in terms of vocabulary used; even better than a lot of native speakers. So, you might indeed be qualified to practice law in English, however, this is not what counts for a teaching job.
You cannot compare to a native speaker when it comes to “just knowing what is right”, intuition and the confidence to “feel a language”. A native speaker can adopt different styles, while a non-native is stuck in his learned pattern routine.
When I was teaching myself, I had to be very self-aware of what I am saying, and which phrases to use under which circumstances. When I am talking in German, though, I can just let the language flow, without much thinking - effortless.
You know it feels different when you speak English as compared to Chinese, right? This flow-thing makes you that much more confident in Chinese.
It doesn’t take a genius to note that the English education is in a sorry state. Don’t get carried away in your ranting and deny a truth that is as sure as sure can be, just because it comes out of the mouth of a foreigner.
Anyway, from my judgement of your posts you would be wasting your talents in an elementary school classroom anyway, so why are you getting so worked up about it?
[quote=“Flipper”]strange that in a thread about how racist TAIWANESE people are you are spending all your time attacking foreigners.
in fact you go out of your way to defend discrimination against foreigners as somehow acceptable because they aren’t citizens.
you skipped right over the morality of discrimination and launched into a “well, it’s technically legal” defense. i don’t think you’re in ANY position to whine about discrimination at this stage.[/quote]
Are you referring to western morality? What is your source? Discrimination against non-citizens of a state is against western (or some other) moral values because?
[quote=“jasonlin”]
Are you referring to western morality? What is your source? Discrimination against non-citizens of a state is immoral because?[/quote]
Jason, I find your sense of what is morally right and wrong quite disturbing, even more so as you claim to have studied law.
An attitude like this cannot be excused by some unique chineseness of values, and kind of shows that in terms of moral development your time in the States was wasted.
[quote=“t.ukyo”]
so why are you getting so worked up about it?[/quote]
Initially, I only tried to get a sense of what foreign teachers in Taiwan think of the new MOE policy. I only took offense when foreigners start calling Taiwanese racist and “Chinese.”
[quote=“t.ukyo”][quote=“jasonlin”]
Are you referring to western morality? What is your source? Discrimination against non-citizens of a state is immoral because?[/quote]
Jason, I find your sense of what is morally right and wrong quite disturbing, even more so as you claim to have studied law.
An attitude like this cannot be excused by some unique chineseness of values, and kind of shows that in terms of moral development your time in the States was wasted.[/quote]
Then I guess you have never lived in the States, had any encounters with the criminal justice system here or lived overseas for too long.
For example, if you are convicted of a felony, even after you have served your time and pay your debts to society, you will never be able vote again, or obtain public assistance and benefits, apply for school loans, work for the government, obtain certain licenses (law, accounting,…), etc… What are the moral values in american society? Regulations are morally acceptable as long as you can justify it legally and it is not against public policy. If the majority of the public do not think it is immoral, then it will not usually be considered immoral.
If you dont know what I am talking about just look at how U.S. treat other developing or third world nations.
So, I think my moral development is on par with any typical american
i’m taiwanese and i’m calling taiwanese racist.
ps: my english is more “native” than yours. 
good for you
you should wait till i’m done before you reply and edit. now people are going to get the wrong idea. lol.
[quote=“jasonlin”][quote=“t.ukyo”]
so why are you getting so worked up about it?[/quote]
Initially, I only tried to get a sense of what foreign teachers in Taiwan think of the new MOE policy. I only took offense when foreigners start calling Taiwanese racist and “Chinese.”[/quote]
Ummm … I think you were the first one to call Taiwanese racist. And secondly, the last time I checked, “Taiwanese” (not counting the Aboriginal population) ARE “Chinese” … ethnically speaking of course. And please don’t turn this into a thread on independence.
Ummm… Maybe you need to read this thread more carefully. I said the DPP administration, MOE, and English school/employers are racist. Have I ever expressly stated or implied that EVERY Taiwanese is a racist? (if I have please bring it to my attention)
However, this foreigner said:
Really? Where have you been in the last couple of months?
Let me make you a short list: Enron, Global Crossing, Andersen Consulting, Martha Stewart, KMart, MCI-Worldcom, Tyco, PriceWaterhouseCoopers (world’s largest accounting firm), etc… The red envelopes given for jobs in Taiwan are nothing compared to the amount of money these people took from the shareholders.
So, when you say corruption is prevalent in Taiwan are you quantifying it based occurrence or the amount of money misappropriated? how many people are harmed as a result and who are those people?
Jason, why don’t you give it up? Taiwan’s schools have been employing Taiwanese English teachers for a long time, and what’s the result? Some of the poorest English in Asia. Why don’t you look at the RESULTS???
taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20020 … 501p4.html
"Yu made the remark in the Legislative Yuan in response to remarks by DPP lawmaker Luo Wen-jia that Taiwanese students had one of the poorest average TOEFL scores among Asian countries last year.
Luo said Taiwanese students’ average TOEFL result ranked 20th among 23 Asian counties and that he is worried Taiwan’s competitiveness might be jeopardized at a time when a knowledge-based economy is becoming the key to international competitiveness."
I think the difference is that the rule of law is able to cope with crime and corruption in most Western countries, and although the West has its fair share of corrupt politicians and business people, most people respect the rule of law, it is something that has been ingrained into our collective subconscious since our earliest education. However, in Taiwan, the “rule of law” is a virtually unknown concept, and the average citizen does not hold the law up to the same standard as in the West, and the legal system in Taiwan has shown itself to be completely inept at dealing with the rampant corruption.
But I digress … your beef should be with the government here, not a group of foreigners … so please stop wasting bandwith and go take your complaints to the relevant authorities … 謝謝你的支持與配合﹗
[quote=“blueface666”]Jason, why don’t you give it up? Taiwan’s schools have been employing Taiwanese English teachers for a long time, and what’s the result? Some of the poorest English in Asia. Why don’t you look at the RESULTS???
taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/20020 … 501p4.html
"Yu made the remark in the Legislative Yuan in response to remarks by DPP lawmaker Luo Wen-jia that Taiwanese students had one of the poorest average TOEFL scores among Asian countries last year.
Luo said Taiwanese students’ average TOEFL result ranked 20th among 23 Asian counties and that he is worried Taiwan’s competitiveness might be jeopardized at a time when a knowledge-based economy is becoming the key to international competitiveness."[/quote]
Wow you don’t know much do you? If the “rule of law” has been ingrained into your collective subconscious as you claimed, then why do most of the rich (in U.S. and elsewhere) set up off-shore tax shelters for the purpose of evading taxes (thus they are illegal). How many people in Taiwan have ever heard of offshore tax shelters?
“Rule of law” doesn’t mean a damn thing when you have a bunch lawyers exploiting those loopholes.
I won’t give up because until the government/MOE promulgates clear guidelines for the selection of English teachers and set forth a basis for not permitting Taiwanese to compete equally with foreigners for those positions, MOE’s decisions to hire English teachers based on place of origin and race (race because it excludes Taiwanese) are illegal on its face because it discriminates against Taiwanese. (And low TOEFL ranking is not a justification for discrimination.)
Jason, take a look at the results of your poll. It appears that of those who voted, the majority agree with you – its discrimination if Taiwanese are not allowed to compete. So why exactly are you still complaining to us about it? You’re preaching to the choir, so give it a rest. I don’t think anyone posting here has the ear of the MOE, so we can’t help you there either.
Don’t forget, as foreigners we’re not allowed to do anything here outwith the terms of our visas, so if we take up your case, we’re liable to deportation without even the opportunity to defend ourselves.
Christ, its hard enough as a foreigner to even get a credit card here – how discriminatory is that?
And if you really are qualified to practice law in the US, I’d have thought you’d be aware that there’s nothing illegal about off-shore tax havens.
I said using off-shore tax havens for the purpose of “evading taxes” is illegal. (what else do you use an off-shore tax haven for?) That was in the context of the a claim by someone that westerners have the concept of “rule of law” ingrained in their subconscious. So I use the offshore tax haven example to show that while westerners may possess the the concept of “rule of law”, they are always trying to find a loophole and defeat the spirit of the law.
I do plan to raise the issue with MOE. This is just an exercise to help me anticipate some of the counter arguments i might expect. So sorry if i sound like I am complaining or go offtopic to make some non-important point.
I don’t know if you just arrived in Taiwan yesterday or you’re just another foreigner insensitive to other cultures… Just as there are nuances in languages, there are also nuances in Taiwan culture. Despite what you think you might know, there are people in Taiwan who will be offended if you call them chinese.
Who are “they”? If by “they” you mean Taiwanese who are native-speakers, then I agree with you.
