[quote=“Vannyel”]Let me see if I have all the facts:
(1) …according to the test results -Taiwanese students had some of the “poorest average TOEFL scores” among Asian countries, and
(2) to continue this practice Jason is maintaining that they should be allowed to teach English. [/quote]
You must be illiterate… Show me where (in this thread) I said Low scoring Taiwanese students “should be allowed to teach English?”
Also, before you attack someone be sure to get all your facts straight, otherwise you will embarrass yourself.
Your own government said the majority of Taiwanese taking the TOEFL score low so therefore the majority of those applying for English teaching jobs would be low scorers. Naturally this has nothing to do with the current English ability of most Taiwanese teachers in the classroom, does it?
My facts are straight; however, your ability for deductive reasoning seems to be lacking. As for someone being embarrassed, I should think you would be by now - how many responses have you received that support your position?
You have not addressed my question: Where have i said people with low toefl scores should be allowed to teach English?
Did I ever say taiwanese with low toefl scores should be able to compete with foreigners for English teaching jobs?
What makes you think people with low toefl scores will get those jobs?
I said Taiwanese who are native speakers should be able to compete equally with foreigners for the English teaching jobs. How many Taiwanese with low TOEFL scores takes TOEFL) are native speakers?
I don’t expect foreigners to take my position since opening the selection process to Taiwanese would result in less work for foreigners. What is there to be embarrassed about? I would be embarrassed only if no Taiwanese support my position.
I only care about whether or not the selection process is fair in that it gives every qualified candidate an equal opportunity regardless of race and place of origin.
[quote=“Vannyel”]Ok then back to the beginning Jason,
your first post said
" I think this is just another discriminatory practice engaged in by the MOE and the ROC government.
One of the prerequisites for becoming a ‘Foreign’ English teacher is that the applicant’s ‘native’ language must be English.
But the criteria that the applicant is a “foreigner” appears to be the determinative or deciding factor."
The second part of your statement referring to the criteria that an applicant must be a foreigner, you said ‘appears to be.’ This in effect invalidates this entire thread simply because in standard English what ‘appears to be’ doesn’t mean the same as what ‘is.’
Bearing this in mind, I am not going to answer anymore rebuttals or comments on this thread simply because it ‘is’ a waste of my time. Notice I did not say ‘appears to be.’ There is a big difference.[/quote]
If you want to embarrass yourself some more, I have no problem with that.
If I had said that the only factor the MOE will use to determine which applicant to accept is the “place of original” of the applicant, then that would be a misrepresentation (since I dont have access to that kind of information).
But if you look at the all facts that are available (i.e. press releases by the MOE, statements by MOE that they only want to hire teachers from english speaking countries, newspapers, media, online discussions, talking to other people, etc. ), then it would appear (or it would be obvious) to any reasonable person who are acquainted with those similar facts that MOE will hire candidates based on their place of origin (thus excluding Taiwanese as applicants).
I don’t know how using “appears” instead of “is” or “obvious to any reasonable person who is acquinted with those similar facts at the time” would invalidate the entire thread? Or subjectively, it appeared to me when i wrote my post that MOE will more likely than not implement the policy referred to above.
If you want to get hyper-technical. Lets start by defining “appears to be” and “is,” but dont just tell us that they are different. And also specify which standard of usage we are using (British or American)?
Whether or not you are going to respond or how you spend your time is none of my concern. In the future, you should bear in mind that, it is not necessary to disclose such superfluous information (since it is not material or essential to the discussion).
Let’s not confuse Jason with facts…you know, LOW TOEFL scores. Tell you what Jason, next time you get sick, go to one of the local doctors who studied English only here in Taiwan and just did well enough to pass. Maybe, with luck, he won’t kill you.
Tell you what, I want to give you a chance to expose yourself as a stereotypical, ignorant foreigner:
Answer the following in the affirmative or negative:
You think doctors in Taiwan who have low TOEFL scores and who only studied English in Taiwan are more likely to committ malpractice on patients who can only speak fluent English than on patents who can speak fluent mandarin, taiwanese and English?
You can speak mandarin fluently?
You can speak Taiwanese fluently?
You can speak English fluently?
(optional) You think doctors in Taiwan who apply to medical schools in Taiwan and who only practice in Taiwan are required to take TOEFL?
This is now getting irrelevant. Jason, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about. I worked at a Taiwanese train station buxiban where all the Taiwanese instructors (of subjects other than English)made over NT$200k a month. One made NT$600k for teaching maths.
There is no point in seeking a fight here on this board. Foreigners came to Taiwan to teach English because there was a high demand amongst Taiwanese for foreign English teachers. It happened in that order. No-one held a gun to the collective heads of the Taiwanese and said “You must employ foreigners”.
If there was no demand amongst Taiwanese for foreign teachers there wouldn’t be any. Go and ask ten Taiwanese people in the street whether they would like to learn English from a foreigner or a Taiwanese and the majority will say “foreigner”.
So whatever problem you have with the policy (and it is quite clearly discriminatory as you have said - but arguably for a good reason) take it up with the Ministry.
I have been listening to the “Foreigners shouldn’t earn as much as / more than us” argument for 11 years, and it is getting tiring.
I think you are the one who doesn’t have a clue because nobody here, including me, is talking about salaries of Taiwanese teachers of subjects other than English.
I’m exercising my freedom of speech. Nobody is forcing you to listen.
I think blueface 666 means (said) that you don’t want doctors to operate on you who only just passed (medical school). A different point to how good there english is. Likewise one would not want a english teacher who only just passed ENglish (especially if done as a second language).
I guess the point which is going round and around in circles is that a foreigner who only passed english as a second language but comes from the ‘right’ country can apply for these jobs. As the poll shows most people agree that this is not fair.
Perhaps we should talk about the discrimanatory policy of not allowing people from other Asian countries from coming here to teach English. If Taiwan students ranked 20th of 24 countries then many people from those countries who are perhaps qualified english teachers should be given the chance to apply for these jobs. What do you say to having
Indonesians teaching english here (using that example as I spoke to a girl from there whose English was very good). Not a lawyer though so don’t know if she should be allowed to apply for the job?
I must hasten to add that in my experience the english of foreigners teaching English here is 99% of the time better than that of local people who may wish to teach english. Still in a perfect world they should be able to apply for the jobs. Again comes down to who will test the English skills of applicants.
Second the motion for an end to South African bashing on Segue. Being from there and having Afrikaans friends I do not appreciate complaints.
I would not wish to have an Afrikaans speaking person (whose
English is not very good) teaching my child English but if it is a choice between that and a chinese person 9 times out of ten I would choose the Afrikaans speaking person.
Tell you what, I want to give you a chance to expose yourself as a stereotypical, ignorant foreigner:
Answer the following in the affirmative or negative:
You think doctors in Taiwan who have low TOEFL scores and who only studied English in Taiwan are more likely to committ malpractice on patients who can only speak fluent English than on patents who can speak fluent mandarin, taiwanese and English?
You can speak mandarin fluently?
You can speak Taiwanese fluently?
You can speak English fluently?
(optional) You think doctors in Taiwan who apply to medical schools in Taiwan and who only practice in Taiwan are required to take TOEFL?[/quote]
Jason, I’ve lived here for 20 years and have a PhD in Chinese history…how about yourself, numbnuts? Also, I used to teach English at one of your more prestigious medical institutions here…if I have a serious problem, I’m going to Singapore.
BTW, a local doctor prescribed 10% benzoil peroxide for a Taiwanese friend of mine after she gave birth. She was told to rub it on her vagina. The doctor couldn’t read the instructions and hadn’t a clue what he was prescribing.
This is one reason I stay here…to educate ignorant Taiwanese like yourself.
Tell you what, I want to give you a chance to expose yourself as a stereotypical, ignorant foreigner:
Answer the following in the affirmative or negative:
You think doctors in Taiwan who have low TOEFL scores and who only studied English in Taiwan are more likely to committ malpractice on patients who can only speak fluent English than on patents who can speak fluent mandarin, taiwanese and English?
You can speak mandarin fluently?
You can speak Taiwanese fluently?
You can speak English fluently?
(optional) You think doctors in Taiwan who apply to medical schools in Taiwan and who only practice in Taiwan are required to take TOEFL?[/quote]
Jason, I’ve lived here for 20 years and have a PhD in Chinese history…how about yourself, numbnuts? Also, I used to teach English at one of your more prestigious medical institutions here…if I have a serious problem, I’m going to Singapore. [/quote]
Congradulations. I don’t recall asking you for any personal information. You are telling me this because you want to impress everyone here? or impress me? So how many people in Tw have PhD in Chinese?
After I get my license in TW you should refer me the patients of your ignorant doctors so I can sue them for malpractice. And try make a copy of all their documents and files or admissions - in writing.
So, if they immigrated, are they Taiwanese or foreigners? Or is this just some more silly Taiwanese racism?
Look, when I studied Chinese in the US, my teacher was from Beijing. I didn’t want to be taught by a Westerner who had studied in Taiwan. I wanted someone who I KNEW could speak the language AND explain the culture.
Sorry, but it sounds like you’ve got a big chip on your shoulder. [/quote]
Exactly, and a quick spell check wouldn’t hurt either. (Taiwaneses)???
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