MOE Hiring Foreign Teachers - Is It Discrimination?

I think you are the one who doesn’t have a clue because nobody here, including me, is talking about salaries of Taiwanese teachers of subjects other than English.

I’m exercising my freedom of speech. Nobody is forcing you to listen.[/quote]

I am one of the moderators of this forum. You don’t have “freedom of speech”. Up to this point we have tolerated you, barely. I am now beginning to lose my patience. Why don’t you go off, find out a little bit about what you’re attempting to talk about, and stop bothering us here with your ill-conceived nonsense ? Take your dislike of foreigners, or whites, or whatever it is, and bring it up with your own government, not us.

And guys, please don’t encourage him…!

[quote=“jasonlin”][Then I guess according to you most people who graduated from U.S. primary & secondary [color=red]pubic[/color] education system would also be classified as non-native speakers. (judging by how you evaluate my writing)
[/quote]

Hmmmm…

Let’s say for the sake of argument that the Bush administration suddenly decided that every American schoolchild should learn Mandarin. (hey, there might be worse policies!)

So, we establish a Department of Mandarin Education, fund it, and now we have to establish a curriculum and hire administrators and teachers to spread correct Mandarin through the US of A.

How many Taiwanese would vote for allowing non-native Chinese speakers to have the final say on whose Mandarin was good enough to teach in the schools? I know, we’ll hire a Secretary of Mandarin Education who doesn’t speak much Mandarin, and hasn’t studied education or pedagogy in the last 30 years, but has excellent political connections. That person will allow the hiring of unqualified teachers of Mandarin, who will fill class time with meaningless exercises, and we’ll give a test every week, but of course provide outside schools to give the students the answers to the tests and teach them to pick the correct choice (of course our tests will be multiple choice, too much work for the teachers otherwise, and they don’t know how to write a reliable test instrument anyway as they are unqualified) and then we’ll sit back and wonder why our students can’t achieve high scores on the SAT-II in Mandarin.

There are two issues involved: policy/pedagogical planning issues and actual classroom teaching. If competent, educated people who had a clue about teaching were in charge of the first, and if society here didn’t have such a knee-jerk classification reaction of “me Chinese, you foreigner”, maybe we could get the best teachers into the classrooms regardless of their origins, passport nationality or physical appearance. However, as long as we have to batch-process these people, it will always come down to documents, because documents are easier to agree on than actual proficiency, whether in language or teaching.

I am a very skilled speaker of both Chinese and Spanish (i.e., I’m an experienced translator and simultaneous interpreter) but I am NOT native. That being said, I’m a better teacher of Mandarin (at beginning and intermediate levels, not advanced!) than most I’ve seen on this island. But what I’d like to see is a system where my students’ results, my educational background (Ph.D. in Language Teaching) and my own proficiency are actually considered in choosing whether or not to give me a job teaching. I’m sure the Taiwanese teachers of English feel the same way. Those who can compete should be able to, and there should be no difficulty in them getting jobs. Those who cannot need to improve their skills or change fields. The market owes no one a living.

So the answer to Jason’s original question is a resounding “maybe”.

If I was Taiwanese and could speak fluent english, I wouldn’t be teaching english here I tell you that. My sister in law studied in the US for 7 years, got her masters, came back, got a managerial position in a local bank, then scored a $NT800,000 hong bao for chinese new year. That was her yearly salary all over again as a bonus.

we are talking about MOE’s policy, and whether it is discriminatory

No, not really racial discrimination, because, if I recall correctly, it’s being restricted to people holding passports from a limited number of countries. It’s not targeting people who are ethnically Taiwanese.

[quote=“jasonlin”]

I was making a comparison between the MOE’s proposal to to hire only “Foreign” English teachers (instead of English teacher or ‘native’ English teachers) for public schools and discrimination practiced by bushiban. What MOE is planning to do is no different from how bushiban hire English teachers – it’s called racial discrimination…[/quote]

I think people who are qualified to teach should be able to teach regardless of race and place of origin. Now, if I could only convince the parents who send their kids to my schools of that. I try to convince them, and it usually works…after a lot of work.

Remember folks, after it is all said and done about almost any aspect of English teaching in Taiwan, it comes down to profit. Taiwanese who speak fluent English may not get the same benefits as an NST because many parents (the people who pay the money) refuse to believe that they can teach just as well. And if the teacher does not fit the customers’ perception of what a teacher should look, act, and talk like…well, they take their money someplace else. Educate the parents (customers) about what they should really look for in a teacher and all this stuff about discrimination should slowly fade away.

DB

[quote=“Durins Bane”]And if the teacher does not fit the customers’ perception of what a teacher should look, act, and talk like…well, they take their money someplace else. Educate the parents (customers) about what they should really look for in a teacher and all this stuff about discrimination should slowly fade away.
[/quote]

Why would you want to “educate” parents? Wouldn’t that decrease the job opportunities for you and other foreign teachers?

[quote=“Flicka”]
Why would you want to “educate” parents? Wouldn’t that decrease the job opportunities for you and other foreign teachers?[/quote]

Not for those who aren’t white.

I think Jason is the only one in this thread that is of Chinese ethnicity - correct? He feels there’s descrimination and maybe it’s harder for you to see it. Just a thought.

Well, I was born in Taiwan and raised in Canada. All my Canadian friends see me as Canadian, but the Taiwanese still call me Taiwanese - Hua Chao. I was rejected for many Foreign Teacher jobs b/c of my Chinese ethnicity (I don’t like calling it race - cause we all belong to the human race). I speak, act and think like a Canuck, and I can’t read write or speak Manderin very well and I am not classified as true foreigner by many Taiwanese. I am Hua Chao and excluded from many jobs. But after dozens of interviews, I wasn’t hired for my looks but for my B.Ed and my experience. Yeah, I was discriminated against. I am a foriegner to this country. Yes, I was born here, but I don’t know it very well. I was raised in Canada with the true north strong and free in my heart.

So, yeah, 00scott and Okami had some good points,and I agree, but I also agree with Jason. Try walking in the Hua Chau shoes for some time. You’ll feel the descrimination.

Pertaining to MOE’s hiring practices… I think they will have to hire Hua Chao Foreigners. Cause they’re aren’t enough Chinese speaking Foreigners in Taiwan or willing to come.

Anyhow, we all agree that many Taiwanese are less than fair. But Jason, if you work at it long enough, there are some people that will treat you for what you are on the inside - I did get the high paying salary. Demand and earn their respect and people will give it. Don’t accept unacceptable behaviour (descrimination). I’m not working for NT$30-40K per month with 5 years of teachng experience in Canada and a B.Ed. There are a few smart and fair Taiwanese out there… just have to look for them.

Cheers,
JJ;)

Flicka,

Nope, “educated” (enlightened?) parents would make my job much easier. I would not lose paying customers because I hired a CBC (it happened, but the parents who listened when I said she is going to be a good teacher have been rewarded with just that, a good teacher). There would be an even larger pool of teachers to choose from which should mean lower salaries(gotta love all these Canadians flooding the teaching market. God Bless Canadians who have student loans to pay off (grin!)).
It is all about money. Nothing else. Any boss of a school who tells you otherwise is a rat-faced liar.

There are a lot of parents who want a Willy Wonka type school where the kids don’t really learn anything except how to f**k around. Sing songs and play games all the time, that sort of shit. I detest that kind of thinking. Parents who make educated choices about schools and teachers is what I want. I want parents to thank me when the school asks them to bring their kid to Saturday morning detention. I want parents want their kids to do homework. I want parents to look at the teacher for what he/she can accomplish, not what they look like.

[quote=“Durins Bane”]Flicka,

Nope, “educated” (enlightened?) parents would make my job much easier. I would not lose paying customers because I hired a CBC (it happened, but the parents who listened when I said she is going to be a good teacher have been rewarded with just that, a good teacher). There would be an even larger pool of teachers to choose from which should mean lower salaries(gotta love all these Canadians flooding the teaching market. God Bless Canadians who have student loans to pay off (grin!)).
It is all about money. Nothing else. Any boss of a school who tells you otherwise is a rat-faced liar.

There are a lot of parents who want a Willy Wonka type school where the kids don’t really learn anything except how to f**k around. Sing songs and play games all the time, that sort of shit. I detest that kind of thinking. Parents who make educated choices about schools and teachers is what I want. I want parents to thank me when the school asks them to bring their kid to Saturday morning detention. I want parents want their kids to do homework. I want parents to look at the teacher for what he/she can accomplish, not what they look like.[/quote]

You’re my F*&&^ing hero man… (pardon my language) Taiwan needs more people like you

I admire you for standing up for the every

hey that’ would be great…let’s start a new forum…the Hoakiao Inc. perhaps…

ax

i am a italian and also foreigner
so…if i’m not english native i can to teach the english languagge!!!
well…i think if i have learn the english language…and i’m not native …this is the best also for the taiwanese people because WE ARE ALSO FOREIGNER for BRITANIC AND AMERICAN PEOPLE
and when u start to learn other language all people can have a lot trouble (same to me when i was to start)…for to learn it!!!
this is my personal concept…foreigner is best teacher for english…
also other things…how many people for USA or ENGLAND come in TAIWAN for to teach english language???
every day i read many request for to look them…! but they come ???
REGARDS
ROBERTO

I have heard this discussion before but what I would like to know is where? Where do you go to get a job? I have contacted the Board of Education and they don’t even know. Any ideas?

TaiwanTroll