I probably shouldn’t write this as I am a little woozy from too much tea and cigarettes, but Geng, I think it only fair to warn you; you may not like the way this thread is going so far, but I have a feeling it is about to take a turn for the worse. When you travel around the world as a tyke to spread random memes, you may be surprised that some people don’t like it and take every cyber opportunity to call you on it. I know you want to talk about your experiences in Taiwan, but you made the mistake of associating yourself with a big morass of a thing called an “organized religion” and therefore will have to answer for all the perceived absurdities, inequities and ridiculosities (inspired by the taiwan vs. taiwanese thread) of said religion. Good luck in the coming melee. BTW, door-to-door religion delivery, pizza delivery, coincidence? Da-mei-le, da-la-mei?
I respect mormons so much. It seems 1/4 of the professors at Harvard Business School are mormon. Very disciplined – no alcohol, not even coffee. And they all seem to have many kids, each of whom grows up to tithe the church. Aren’t they the richest church in the US?
Speaking of which, Geng, how did you survive in Taiwan? Did you get a stipend? Was it tied to your so-called “success rate” at all?
BAH-
Mormon missionaries pay their own way. I saved some money before I left and my folks pitched in too. We volunteer for 2 yrs. If finances are a problem, the church helps out. When we got to Taiwan we set up bank accounts and money was wired to those accounts monthly to cover expenses. (learning the ATM was tricky at first ) There’s no “bonuses” or any money earned by being a missionary.
Geng,
The Mormons are the only American who values humility (save for the Amish and pockets of Mid-westerners). I also admire the healthy, family-oriented life style the church promote and practice (no polygamy jokes, plz). Pretty high respect coming from an agnostic fellow.
With that said, is it possible that ex-missionaries stayed in Taiwan to escape from the rigor of a Mormon lifestyle?
Also, how do you compare the Taiwanese values with the ones you learned from the church?
Johnny
“The Mormons are the only American who values humility (save for the Amish and pockets of Mid-westerners). I also admire the healthy, family-oriented life style the church promote and practice.”
I can’t stand it. Since so many others have gone off topic, I gotta–I can’t stand it. First, Mormonism is not part of Christianity–it is a cult which is striving to become mainstream. Humility? I don’t think so! Look at the heirarchy of the “church” to understand what I mean. It is legalistic and controlling. Sure, a lot of Mormons are really nice, but you don’t have to be a Mormon to be nice to people. Also, it was started by a documented con-artist who had to keep escaping in order to save his rear-end. Second, there are plenty of non-Mormon Americans who value humility, decency, family etc. Third, I’ve known plenty of Amish people in my neck of the woods who are not humble. They could scam you worse than a non-legal bushiban owner in cahoots with the local foreign affairs police. Also, did you know that Amish communities in several parts of the US have a terrible drug problem?
The best thing the Mormons got going for them is their genealogy archives…
Y’know, it’s all good. Have to say that I do have a least some respect for a religion that gives it’s people hope, guidance and high moral standards. But nobody can argue against all the evidence that’s been stacked against Joseph Smith’s mad delusions. Why stand for and defend something like the Book of Mormon, when it’s flaws are obvious and extreme?
The basic ideas involving love, selflessness and salvation are a common thread of Mormonism and Christianity (and countless others, as well). But both religions ask an awful lot of it’s members. It asks them to put blind faith in scriptures that are claimed to be the unequivocal word of God…as interpreted through men. That’s right…men. The same sinful creatures who themselves confess are flawed and selfish by nature. Why should we put our trust and/or faith in the interpretations of men? What evidence exists to prove these men were undoubtedly the mouth of God? It’s one thing to ask someone to put faith in God or Jesus. But it’s quite another to ask them to put their faith in texts written by a bunch of Jewish guys.
Seeking God is one thing. I believe selfless values and love for others are God-like virtues. But one that seeks God is not one who “settles” for the religion they’ve been taught, or the one that appeals to them most. Doing so would be called “ignorance” at best. He who seeks the truth may or may not find it. But he who puts all his eggs in one basket is most certainly doomed to oblivion.
Granted it was off the subject, but you won’t find Geng or any other Mormon telling you the significance of the symbols on the required undergarments – it’s one of those mystic secrets that heathens like us are not to know.
quote:
Originally posted by tai xiaojie: I can't stand it. Since so many others have gone off topic, I gotta--I can't stand it. First, Mormonism is not part of Christianity--it is a cult which is striving to become mainstream. Humility? I don't think so! Look at the heirarchy of the "church" to understand what I mean. It is legalistic and controlling. [/QB]
For one thing, of course Mormonism is a part of Christianity. They believe in Jesus, they accept the Old and New Testaments. Sure they diverge some from other form of Christianity, but not more than, say, the Nestorians or the Gnostics in early Christianity. Historically their roots are firmly in Christianity. Put another way, they looks Christian, they sounds Christian, they smells Christian … they is Christian. I might also add that they don’t act any less “Christian” than anyone else who claims the label.
As for legalistic, controlling and hierarchical, have you caught the news about all the Catholic bishops who tried to cover up for their pedophile priests?
As for “a cult striving to join the mainstream,” you’re in a glass house on this one. To play the devil’s advocate (speaking of legalistic, under canon law, when someone is up for sainthood in the Catholic Church two advocates are appointed to argue for and against. The former is known as “the devil’s advocate,” hence the idiom), let’s pretend we’re a Roman cult deprogrammer looking at early Christianity:
-We have a charismatic leader who
-claimed to be the son of god
-and encouraged his followers to abandon their jobs
-give away all their possessions
-and leave their families to follow him
-he was also executed like a common criminal (then as now, this was considered a more serious mark against you than having been a bad writer a la Elron Hubbard)
-We have a group of followers who
-lived communally
-were tight-knit and insular
-had their own secret symbols and rituals
-added their own scriptures to the Hebrew Bible
-and sat around waiting for the end of the world (Peter and the boys thought it was coming any day)
-they were further perceived as a threat to social order (in a Roman Empire that was religiously pluralistic and generally fairly tolerant).
Now surely our Roman cult deprogrammer would see a business opportunity here. Not until the Conversion of Constantine in the early 4th century did this cult become “mainstream.” My point is not to slag Christianity (I like Christianity fine. Christians, I take case by case), but to point out that “cult” is often simply what cults that has become mainstream calls one that hasn’t.
All religions have their merits and their failings. Most religions that don’t have sarin gas stashed in a basement have produced their share of saints and ordinary good people. And most have produced a lot of self righteous bastards as well. It’s a mixed bag.
True believers find in their faiths a system of life which is compelling and orients them to something beyond themselves and their personal concerns. From the inside, it is a coherent and vivid reality, even if it appears dubious to those of us outside the circle.
Bringing this back around to the original thread (well, almost), I think that this is an issue that is neglected when people look at missionaries. People who violently object to missionizing (here I mean as a whole, methods are a seperate matter) seem to forget that the missionaries may truly believe in what they’re doing. They may feel that their life is immeasurably better for their faith and feel that it would benefit others in the most important and fundamental ways. As annoying as we may find it in practice, missionizing is quite understandable if we look at it from the believer’s point of view.
Anyway, that’s my two cents worth as a student of religion. I won’t afflict anyone further.
Thank God. No pun intended…
I don’t know about Mormonism per se, but all the individual Mormons I’ve ever met have all been advertisements for a happy, balanced life, and they’ve all been darn nice people too.
About the language thing – I wonder if it has to do with motivation. I’m studying Taiwanese at the Maryknoll school in Taipei (great center, by the way, really nice folks!!) and the attitude is so much different from other language schools. I think that at other schools, there’s more of a “whatever” kind of attitude – maybe you’re there for a visa, maybe you’d like to learn a little, but the attitude is that you will probably not become almost-natively-fluent in Chinese or Taiwanese {remember this is a perception, but I think those who have been to the language buxibans might agree). At Maryknoll, anyway, while they agree that learning a language is a lifelong endeavor, there is never a question of how MUCH you will learn – the only goal that is ever talked about is complete fluency, and there are quite a few good examples to hear about and see in person at the Center.
I wonder if motivation doesn’t have something to do with it – both the motivation by the Center (expecting that the students will learn perfect or near-perfect or at least really REALLY functional Taiwanese, including proper tones, tone changes and all) and motivation on the part of the students (who are 99% religious workers, and so might feel that their study is serving a higher purpose or has some aspect of being a calling or something)???
I mean, when I said I would only be able to afford 3 or 4 hours week of 1 on 1 classes, their response was “So little time? Don’t you want to learn this language in a year or two?”
Terry
quote[quote] For one thing, of course Mormonism is a part of Christianity. They believe in Jesus, they accept the Old and New Testaments. [/quote]The Mormon Bible is a rewritten form of the ‘Christian Bible’. Many people argue that the differences between Mormonism and other forms of Christianity are big enough to say that it’s not a form of Christianity.
There is no historical doubt that John Smith was a conman who was arrested many times, changed his story about his ‘revelations’ repeatedly and had sexual relationships with teenagers as young as 14 (and got arrested for this too).
Nothing personal against Mormons here (although those I’ve met give me the creeps). I’m sure there’s some nice ones int he bunch. I just think you should know where this religion comes from.
Bri
That’s “Joe” Smith. Mormonism, as a whole, has no fundamental leg to stand on. Sure, it instills high moral values in it’s members. But it’s entirely based on delusions… See the links in my post above.
I have a practical question for Geng and other American Mormon men. I know a Taiwanese girl who is attracted to western men, but she’s a devout (perhaps even fundamentalist) Christian, and she believes she should not have sex before she is married. We’ll call her E, for Evangeline.
Analysis: I think that, if E were to identify potential boyfriends haphazardly, simply based on who she happens to meet, she will find that a high percentage (though by no means all) of the western men she meets may disagree strongly with her belief in abstinence, raising a serious obstacle in her search for a satisfying love life.
Hypothesis: If E makes an effort to meet and woo Mormon men, she will find that a much higher percentage of them share her commitment to abstaining from sex until they are married.
I told E as much, but I wonder if my advice was sound. I am for one not absolutely sure that Mormons practice abstinence, but my main concern was that I found it hard to picture an American Mormon having a serious relationship with someone of another culture. I don’t know if this is generally true among Mormons, or simply my impression formed from observing Mormons in what might be called their homelands: Utah and Idaho. Needless to say these locales are almost exclusively white and provided little opportunity for such romances.
On balance, would you say Evangeline might better her chances by setting her sights on Mormons? I would appreciate your insights.
That has GOT to be a f–kin’ joke! Tell the woman to loosen up, or she’s gonna end up with some prick who has no idea where to put his machinery. If she wants her sex life to be less than satisfying, then abstinence is the way to go. Remember…marriage is about sex and procreation first. Then it’s about family second.
Mormons abstaining from sex? Where did you get that?
From the same unimpeachable, exhaustively-researched database that is the source of all advice I give.
My best friend when I was a wee lad was Mormon and he didn’t (abstain), but I always thought he was a “bad” Mormon. Though a decent fellow.
And no, I am not joking. Still curious to hear if a Mormon has anything to add.
Wolf,what do those uwear symbols mean and what are they,pray tell.?
AND: i HavE heard that Mormon misshies are not allowed to read the local newspapers, either in CHinese or English, during their 2 year military missions here.
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is that true?
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and why?
Also cannot watch CNN or other TV news or listen to radio news?WHY???
My sister married a recovering Mormon – you know the drill, they were brought up with the faith but have since seen the light in a different way, but ultimately fall back into the old ways.
Anywho, she and the dude divorced (he remarried a month later – I could never make this up – which makes marriage number three for him).
So I know that the funky undergarments that men are required to wear to remind them of their obligations to the church have small symbols on the chest and stomach and like the legs somewhere. They are like little stars and such, but, alas, she was never inquistive enough to find out the meaning behind them.
No Mormon I have even met has been willing to speak of the special undergarments much less the meaning behind the symbols, thus my request.
The recent edition of Mr. Bloom’s book has been selling out after it was retitled: “How I went crazy living in Taiwan.”
Why are mormons always seen trying to “save” happy, well adjusted, well-off individuals? How come I never see them trying to “save” the prostitutes and the drunkards? How come I never see them trying to help the homeless? Could it all really be about $$$?
Mark,
the other thing about the Mormons, in addition to their undergarments with the little stars (and thank you for the insided skinny there) is they cannot use email forums like this either during their two year overseas missions, similar to their not being able to read the papers. That’s why the Taipei Times never has been Mormon readers or Mormon coverage, I guess; they just plumb don’t read the dailies.
So how do they get their news about Taiwan then? Do they know who is who here, and the local political and social scene is all about? or do they just concentrate on recruitment?
Not being able to read the papers for two years is tantamount to mind control, it seems. I guess that’s why there won’t be many Mormoni responses here. Too bad, because it would be interesting to hear from them.
They also rotate alot in Taiwan, I notice. In Chiayi, for example, the Mormon missionaries change every three months or so, when they are rotated to Kaohsiung or Tainan. What is the purpose of this?
The little stars, Mark, just might be signs that Jesus visited North Ameican Indians after he was crucified, as the Mormoni bible states (there is even a painting of Jesus among the Natives in that book). But could Jesus have gotten to North America in 33 AD when there were no airplanes yet? Astral travelling?