I’ll go with that too.
I believe that my belief system is better - better for me. Islam just wouldn’t fit.[/quote]
Precisely. But do you think it’s also better for a caveman worshiping a frog in the jungle? More to the point, would you go and tell him such? I’m guessing not.[/quote]
Only if he asked.
One of the basic tenets of my belief system is that I have to alienate at least three people before breakfast. Therefore you do not please me. My salvation is that much further away, thanks to your post.
I won’t rain on Saturday. I have spake and thus shall it be.
I’m in agreement with you Sandman, what I am pointing out, many who practice religion would also agree with you. In other words its not just religion vs anti religion , its how people choose to interpret their religion as well.
I think the numbers are less than one might think for Jews who really think they are the chosen race, or Muslims who really think everyone else is an infidel or Christians who think not accepting Christ will lead to damnation. Instead, choosing to embrace a lifestyle for themselves and family.You promised you wouldn’t tell! :taz:
Right. But those people would tend not to be the type who profess that their religion is better than yours. Live your life, let others’ live theirs and don’t presume that you know better than they do what’s best for their souls (given that you believe people have such things). It seems so simple, yet there they are on their bicycles with their scruffy shoes.
I believe that Sandman’s idea of alienation involves a lot of anal probing.
Yes, that’s common. And for people who’s religion is just a way of living and a grounding for their values, you won’t see them telling others about it except maybe to offer up some nuggets of wisdom they found useful in a particular situation.
However, that’s not always the case. Many really believe it’s all true. And I wouldn’t label true believers as extremists. Just from talking with members of my own church, I’d wager a good half of active attendees are clearly true believers. Nothing scientific about that, but that’s a significant number of people for sure.
Many religions have beliefs of rather dire consequences for a lack of correct beliefs on matters. For those that really believe this to be true, going out to share these beliefs is usually an act of kindness. Yes, there are those that go out to preach out of ego, and to share the truth is just a pretense. And you are right to be annoyed at people who do that. I know I am when some anti-Mormon or anti-religion nut starts insulting my beliefs.
On the street or door to door proselyting is them going to talk to you. If they are rude and insulting of your beliefs when they do that, then you have every right to be pissed about them. However, if they are respectful of your beliefs and you just don’t want to listen, then I think being rude to them first displays a lack of manners on your
[color=olive](universal your)[/color]
part. I was brought up to treat visitors with respect, even if they’re salesman or what have you.
The case here on Forumosa, though, is that I’m not attacking anyone else’s beliefs, yet people attack mine. A lot. There are people who respectfully discuss beliefs with me, even if they are critical. Fortigurn is one such. But, eventually, I’ll be faced with a persistent nagger and I’ll stop being polite. That’s what happens when someone continues to be rude.
So what are the other half doing? Paying lip service 
or are they the true non believers there to make up the churches numbers or are they there to take up space in the shade on a hot day? 
Maybe they are kids draggged in against their will. 
I woulda thought all the attendees were true believers otherwise why bother going in the first place?
But if you ask the right question in the right situation, you will get the answer you desire. Its like ticking in the boxes. Ever ask those 50% if they ever had doubts about it all?
[quote=“TNT”][quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]
Just from talking with members of my own church, I’d wager a good half of active attendees are clearly true believers. Nothing scientific about that, but that’s a significant number of people for sure.
[/quote]
But if you ask the right question in the right situation, you will get the answer you desire. Its like ticking in the boxes. Ever ask those 50% if they ever had doubts about it all?[/quote]
Even saints have had doubts… having doubts evey now and then is just par for the course. Even Mother Teresa bless her soul…had serious doubts.
Even priests and nuns have doubts at times during their lives.
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]
Many religions have beliefs of rather dire consequences for a lack of correct beliefs on matters. [/quote]
Coercion… if your really really good and follow everything I say, then you may be granted reprieve from hell
nonsense, that’s not coercion, that’s just providing a proper environment for my kids. a Christian environment, just like God said i should do when he told me (through Jesus) to bring him the little children.
or is it?
It is. I remember as a kid being told I would burn in hell if I didnt go to chruch on Sundays.
How is that not coercion to a wee young laddy. It was bad enough having nightmares after watching Lost In Space before somebody brought up some mean and nasty god that was gonna fry your brains out for not attending mass.
My mother tells a story about how I escaped from school one day at the age of five and ran screaming home because I thought the Salvation Army were going to take my away to fight (they were actually looking for brass band recruits and came round my house later with sweeties for me, so great was their mortification over my distress.) Great laughs for all the family and neighbours, I’m SURE. It’s what turned me into a sociopath. These things stay with you.
No, you ran home crying cos they told you that grog was evil!
So what are the other half doing? Paying lip service or are they the true non believers there to make up the churches numbers or are they there to take up space in the shade on a hot day?
Maybe they are kids draggged in against their will.
I woulda thought all the attendees were true believers otherwise why bother going in the first place?[/quote]
Good question.
Some are there out of habit. Some to socialize with decent folk. Some sort of believe, but are mostly in it because the philosophy helps them in their life.
Yes, that’s common. And for people who’s religion is just a way of living and a grounding for their values, you won’t see them telling others about it except maybe to offer up some nuggets of wisdom they found useful in a particular situation.
However, that’s not always the case. Many really believe it’s all true. And I wouldn’t label true believers as extremists. Just from talking with members of my own church, I’d wager a good half of active attendees are clearly true believers. Nothing scientific about that, but that’s a significant number of people for sure.
Many religions have beliefs of rather dire consequences for a lack of correct beliefs on matters. For those that really believe this to be true, going out to share these beliefs is usually an act of kindness. Yes, there are those that go out to preach out of ego, and to share the truth is just a pretense. And you are right to be annoyed at people who do that. I know I am when some anti-Mormon or anti-religion nut starts insulting my beliefs.
On the street or door to door proselyting is them going to talk to you. If they are rude and insulting of your beliefs when they do that, then you have every right to be pissed about them. However, if they are respectful of your beliefs and you just don’t want to listen, then I think being rude to them first displays a lack of manners on your
[color=olive](universal your)[/color]
part. I was brought up to treat visitors with respect, even if they’re salesman or what have you.
The case here on Forumosa, though, is that I’m not attacking anyone else’s beliefs, yet people attack mine. A lot. There are people who respectfully discuss beliefs with me, even if they are critical. Fortigurn is one such. But, eventually, I’ll be faced with a persistent nagger and I’ll stop being polite. That’s what happens when someone continues to be rude.[/quote]
The people who attend church/mosque/synagogue as we agree, have a diversity of reasons for attending, I’m glad we agree. Such is life people react differently to circumstances, and are free to their own interpretation. I have an image in my mind of Sandman running out with a broom shouting “bah humbug” when a group of 10 year old’s come carole singing something like, away in a manger.
I remember standing by a bus stop in Finsbury pak, London while this guy is holding the bible with one hand and pointing to me with another, shouting at the top of his voice how I’m a sinner and need to be saved, and reading verses from the bible, when I wearily asked him to pipe down , a couple of old ladies starting in on me as well, saying “don’t be telling him to shut up, these are the lords words…”, and all I wanted was some peace and quiet.
Has it occurred to you, that the act of approaching someone, with the intent of telling them , X Y Z belief is the only one, that you are judging all those that have a different belief to your own, and people may be offended in that in itself. Before anyone has said a word, and no matter how polite people are about it. For some people this is very personal, and can feel quite upset when their values are being judged by complete strangers.
I think I met the same guy in Hong Kong! Amazing. He really gets around. 
I dislike preaching like that. I understand if a person is in your congregation and you are making a theatrical point, but saying stuff like that to perfect strangers is really bad form. How does the guy know if you’re not doing your best to follow Christ and are already sorrowful for any wrong you’ve done?
Anyway, I know how you feel and totally agree with your sentiments.
I think I met the same guy in Hong Kong! Amazing. He really gets around.
I dislike preaching like that. I understand if a person is in your congregation and you are making a theatrical point, but saying stuff like that to perfect strangers is really bad form. How does the guy know if you’re not doing your best to follow Christ and are already sorrowful for any wrong you’ve done?
Anyway, I know how you feel and totally agree with your sentiments.[/quote]
I hear you’re leaving Taiwan soon, my best wishes for you and your family. Sandman brings up a good point, Proselytism, as far as I know, some denominations of the Church, used to practice Proselytism but, more recently, have chosen not to do so.
In Taiwan, meeting people who would like to convert you to their religion, is for the most part Mormans who I meet perhaps every year or so. Like I said before, and in no small part because I have grown up, I am happy to give a friendly face. The video mentioned in another thread , apparently pwaning a couple of mormons, actually made me a bit sad.
But back in London, it is an almost everyday occurance, if it wasn't at the bus stop, it would be at the supermarket, of course not mormans so much , Jehovah's Witness, Hare Krishna, Muslims and it happens when you are reading a book on the subway or one occasion 7:30 in the morning on a cold winters morning, i got out of the bath , down three sets of stairs, to stand there shivering wet and naked, save a towel, only to have someone ask "have you heard the good news"