New tires experience (Michelin PP2)

Got a set of new tires (Michelin Preceda 2 PP2) So far I’m pretty happy about them.
Perhaps it will be of interest to someone on the forum here.

Since my current set of uninteresting Yokohamas ES510 was worn out (actually quite resembling a slick
and aquaplaning like crazy) I was on the lookout for a decent tires in your typical Taiwan
cheapo sedan size (195/60R15)
Fortunately Michelin released second version of their Preceda line in sizes suitable for normal people
(unlike your typical 2xx/20R18 “scratch the asphalt” ricer setup) PP2 are the new Mazda Miata OEM tires.
(nothing really hardcore)

Pros

Grip: The dry grip so good it is scary on a standard suspension 7th gen Civic :slight_smile:
I tried to push them and I could feel I was taking turns with inner front tire loosing contact
(Civic has a front anti-roll bar only) while still not giving up the turn.
As far as I can tell they are quite linear but you will really need a good smooth road to get there.
I was running them on a typical curvy Taiwanese countryside roads which are quite bumpy.
Could not loose them easily powering through the turn (tactic to fight front wheel drive understeer) -
had not enough bhp :slight_smile:

Wet grip and aquaplaning are good (made 1hour highway run in rain) as far as I can tell
but haven’t ridden them much in the rain.

Comfort: quite surprisingly even at 37PSI they feel quite comfortable and not bumpy.
Nice cushy feeling. Thet was tire shop doing - after I got back home I checked it but left at that
just to see how it will feel.

Very nice high speed stability: Yokohamas were more twitchy and “alive”, Michelin Energies MX3A
which I had before were also nothing special (PP2 is V rated). PP2 feels solid stable (at non recommended
3 digit speeds :smiling_imp:) and gives impression you could be doing 200km and not being very concerned about it
(this on a light car)

Relatively good high speed noise: not excessive and about the same compared to worn out ES501
(supposedly “quiet” tire)

Cons

Price: 12 000NT + 800NT for alignment (set of 4) bought in tire shop listed on Michelin Taiwan web page
Wear: ? we’ll see.
Rolling resistance: suposedly better than previous Preceda but probably not a fuel saving tire although time will tell
Buyer remorse: :slight_smile: Could have bought a better tire? Bridgestone GR80?
Looks (for people who give sh…t): not very interesting - water evacuation thread channels on the outside
give it a bit of “agricultural” look :slight_smile:

In summary:
Good enthusiast tire for people willing to pay a bit more for quality and a grip without changing OEM rims.

I put a set of these on my Impreza a few months back and love them. I have been running about 38psi and 36 rear without any issues. Chalking the tires shows very even wear and they do not tend to roll over at all. I was impressed with the balance between sidewall stiffness and noise. They are as you say very good in standing water.
I got mine for 10k shipped in 205-50/16, but 12k is still reasonable I think. I would definitely buy this tire again.

[quote=“redwagon”]I put a set of these on my Impreza a few months back and love them. I have been running about 38psi and 36 rear without any issues. Chalking the tires shows very even wear and they do not tend to roll over at all. I was impressed with the balance between sidewall stiffness and noise. They are as you say very good in standing water.
I got mine for 10k shipped in 205-50/16, but 12k is still reasonable I think. I would definitely buy this tire again.[/quote]

I’m interested how you checked your tyres for wear using the chalking method you described redwagon, and did you use wax or chalk?

[quote=“sulavaca”]
I’m interested how you checked your tyres for wear using the chalking method you described redwagon, and did you use wax or chalk?[/quote]OK, a quick tire pressure 101:

People ask all the time which suspension units, springs, swaybars etc. they should fit to their cars. Truth is, proper setup of what is already on the car is going to be the best bang-per-buck improvement you can make. A performance alignment and proper tire pressure setup should be the first step even if you are going to replace the whole suspension later.

I tend to buy tires with softer sidewalls than the typical high performance models that you would use on the track or in autocross. I like sticky tires but I’m averse to loud tire noise, so I pick ones with a sticky compound and medium stiff sidewalls, then tune out as much rollover as possible with air pressure.

Note here that tire pressures shown in your (car) owners manual are the minimum values, not the optimum. The manufacturers provide these values based on what is safe in all conditions and for the average driver, and biased toward quiet and comfort. Tires may be run at any pressure you like up to the maximum given by the manufacturer.

Rollover is the tendency of a tire to stick on the road but allow the lateral load from cornering forces to try and roll the tire off the rim. Rollover is deformation of the sidewall where the section of the tire and rim changes from a rectangle into a trapezoid. Such deformation upsets steering geometry, adds undamped spring forces into the steering system and reduces overall weight on the contact patch which reduces total grip. Reducing rollover will reduce these effects and increase the lateral G’s the car can manage in a controlled manner and so increase cornering speeds.

How do you find the optimum pressure for a street car when it could lay anywhere between (say) 28 and 50psi? First you have to see how bad the rollover problem is by seeing how much of the sidewall is coming into the contact patch. With an ordinary stick of chalk you make lines from the contact patch up the sidewall at 5cm intervals around the outside of the tires. Go to a closed course and do hard corners or continous circles with a mind to creating the highest lateral G forces possible. Check and see how far the chalk has been rubbed off the tire from the corner radius up the sidewall.
Next make lines straight across each tire from sidewall to sidewall, again at 5cm intervals around the tire. What we want to see is how flat the tire is approaching the road. We want to see even pressure across the whole contact patch in order to get the best grip from the tire in a straight line and also get the best wear. Underinflating the tire would see most of the load on the corner radius areas which are supported by the sidewalls. Overinflation would see the tire balloon a bit (like a motorcycle tire) and the contact patch would be biased toward a narrow strip in the middle. Again at a closed test track, make hard starts and stops in a straight line and then examine the chalk lines. If we had started testing at the car manufacturers recommended values we would probably see the tires are underinflated and the chalk lines are worn more on the corners than in the middle. Bump the pressures up 2psi at a time until the bias shifts to a center pattern, and then back off (as a rule of thum) 2psi. Running the tires too hard reduces the contact patch and will increase stopping distances. Be sure to maintain the difference in front to rear pressure that the car manufacturer recommends at this point. For example if the handbook recommends 28psi front and 26psi, then keep the front tires 2psi harder than the rears as the pressures increase.
Once the contact patches are optimised like this we can try the cornering testing again to see how much less rollover we have. On an average street performance tire you will notice that the highest lateral G’s you can pull in the car are significantly higher, though you notice more body roll as the suspension has to work harder now that the tires are rolling less. Check the chalk marks to see how much less of the sidewall has been in contact with the road surface.

Note that touring tires with very soft sidewalls will show very little improvement via these techniques. Some of them have such flimsy sidewalls you would have to dangerously overinflate the tire to get any reduction in rollover. Never exceed the manufacturer’s maximum pressure figures. Always set tire pressures cold. Running tires near to the maximum pressure may result in unbearable road noise. Be careful running street tires at continous high G loads as they can get overheated quickly and bad things then happen.

Note that changing the offset between front and rear tire pressures will change the handling behaviour of the car, shifting toward either under or oversteer. Sometimes reducing the total grip at one end of the car or the other may actually make the car quicker on tighter courses where being able to rotate the car quickly saves time. Note that such a setup may be fine for a skilled driver in an autocross event but may cause snap oversteer on wet roads with a less disciplined driver. What works for racing is not usually the best setup on the street.
You may want to experiment with that front/rear pressure offset in order to find what works best for you, but as a rule of thumb you should probably not increase the offset by more than double or decrease it to less than half. Needing to do so would suggest you have suspension or alignment issues you need to work out first.

Thanks very much for that Redwagon, and a great help to some with faster cars such as yourself or slower, more comfortable rides like mine, but with frustrating tyre noise at speeds. I now have a Prius and although the tyres are hard and stiff, mainly to provide higher economy, they are a little too noisy at speed. I’m going to have to read up on tyres, so I can improve upon the ones presently fitted, when they need replacing in about three years…sigh…

About the first thing I did on my Impreza was to replace the OE tires. Only the STi models come with decent rubber on them. The other models get garbage. Why wait three years to really enjoy your car?

True, true indeed, and I may have spent enough money on the purchase already, so why not some more on tyres? Well 'cos I spent a lot already, and figure I’ll get my money’s worth from the original spec rubbers, before I change them. If I had more money, I’d do it right now. I might ask at the time of first service if the garage is interested in exchanging them, but I think I already know the answer to that question.

Yahoo! may be your solution. The Taiwanese are quite comfortable buying used tires if there’s a saving to be had. If they are a common size they will sell quickly.

If you have any experience, then I’ll let you know what mine are tomorrow and see if you can give me a rough value to price them at if you don’t mind. I could otherwise call a tyre shop and see what the going price is.

No review on your new prius Sul?..I thought about buying prius but finally gave up and bought MKV…didn’t have enough confident with local toyota service skill i.e in hybrid tech… :smiley:

No review on your new prius Sul?..I thought about buying prius but finally gave up and bought MKV…didn’t have enough confident with local toyota service skill i.e in hybrid tech… :smiley:[/quote]

True, true, and I don’t have much either. I am taking a gamble really, that the Prius is going to be reliable enough for nothing serious to go wrong. I’ll keep everyone updated on the purchase, when I finally get around to writing the review which hopefully will be today. I’ll post it up when I’m done as well as have it on my site, so keep a look out. I’ll start a new thread for it.

Redwagon, good tech write-up. I second that motion about the PP2s. I’ve driven “the wagon” a few times and aside from the differences between the Subaru and my Honda, the tires on the wagon are a huge difference. For a half-decent performance tire, they seem to be right for the price. I haven’t pushed them hard or driven them in heavy rain, but so far they’ve impressed me.

Cheers

[quote=“Captain Stag”]Redwagon, good tech write-up. I second that motion about the PP2s. I’ve driven “the wagon” a few times and aside from the differences between the Subaru and my Honda, the tires on the wagon are a huge difference. For a half-decent performance tire, they seem to be right for the price. I haven’t pushed them hard or driven them in heavy rain, but so far they’ve impressed me.

Cheers[/quote]

what do you mean “not pushed them hard or driven in heavy rain”?.. the “red wagon” has been your only transport since you sold your Civic no?.. Well it’s been raining a lot recently, and I know how you drive to work, I’ll bet the wagon’s poor PP2s have never seen a work out like they’re getting these days… :smiling_imp:

[quote=“plasmatron”][quote=“Captain Stag”]Redwagon, good tech write-up. I second that motion about the PP2s. I’ve driven “the wagon” a few times and aside from the differences between the Subaru and my Honda, the tires on the wagon are a huge difference. For a half-decent performance tire, they seem to be right for the price. I haven’t pushed them hard or driven them in heavy rain, but so far they’ve impressed me.

Cheers[/quote]

what do you mean “not pushed them hard or driven in heavy rain”?.. the “red wagon” has been your only transport since you sold your Civic no?.. Well it’s been raining a lot recently, and I know how you drive to work, I’ll bet the wagon’s poor PP2s have never seen a work out like they’re getting these days… :smiling_imp:[/quote]

…shhhh, don’t tell anyone. I’ve already had to replace all 4 tires TWICE in the last 2 weeks because of all the drifting I’ve been doing up and down the valley here! That poor wagon sure is getting a work out! :sunglasses: All thanks to the wonderful PP2s. I don’t have a Civic, it’s an Accord, and it’s not gone yet. (hopefully by this weekend). :unamused:

eh?.. not gone yet… what are you on about… your Honda Civacord’s been gone for weeks, that’s why you’ve been driving the wagon all the time… what are you playing at here?.. oooohhh… I get it… is there something you haven’t mentioned to redwagon?.. :astonished: :smiling_imp: :laughing:

LOL

It’s snowing like crazy here and I’m stuck with a lousy FWD econobox. :frowning:

[quote=“redwagon”]LOL

It’s snowing like crazy here and I’m stuck with a lousy FWD econobox. :frowning:[/quote]

I used to have the best fun with FWDs in the snow, you can spin then around in all sorts of ways. :laughing:

After finding my car (Subaru Legacy 2.0R) with a nail in the sidewall last weekend, I had to put on a new set of tires. PP2s were the solution to the OEM Bridgstone RE??? that had melted away after 22,000km (partly due to a bad alignment in the front), and I guess I didn’t remember how nice non-OEM rubber felt. I haven’t tested many performance/touring tires, but in comparison to the OEM bridgstones that were on the car, these PP2s are night and day. Smoother, quieter and much more stable than the Bridgstones were. Also a new alignment was done so that also contributes to the better ride.

As for Costco’s tire service. It wasn’t bad. I mean, there shouldn’t be much to expect from a tire center. But the shop was clean, the equipment well maintained and the technicians (lackies) seemed to work well and carefully. The price was also good and there was some discount I was unaware of, so it was a bit cheaper than what I had expected.

Michelin Taiwan now has PE2 which is a much better than PP2 tire.
It should be only few hundred more per tire compare to PP2, but performance should be well worth it.

PE2 is only sold at Michelin MBA store though, so no costco.

[quote=“zzyzx”]Michelin Taiwan now has PE2 which is a much better than PP2 tire.
It should be only few hundred more per tire compare to PP2, but performance should be well worth it.[/quote]
The Exalto is positioned as the replacement for the now discontinued Preceda. I wouldn’t expect it to be a huge improvement to the Preceda as it’s in the same category (ultra high performance summer tire) and aimed at the same market segment. People who care more about performance than tire life still have the Pilot Sport to consider.