New website: http://www.alientw.org/

Legal General Legal Matters
1

RE: alientw.org/

I invite everyone to visit this new website. There are probably some linking errors and other problems. However, most of the pages are up and running as of today.

Let’s throw down the gauntlet and go for dual nationality rights! That’s the purpose of this website.

Do I have your support? I am going to have to do some serious lobbying this Fall in order to make any progress on this issue! Costs will mount up! Your donations are appreciated!

It is our lives! It is our futures! It is our last chance!

2

[color=blue]Excellent work, Richard. Congratulations, and thank you! :smiley: [/color]

3

An excellent site Richard. I’m sure the Segue community will support you in this.

4

Finally, a website devoted to Alien in Taiwan. Is there a webcam where we can watch her frolic with her cats on her huge balcony? Maybe a list of favorite quotes?

5

LOL ! That’s exactly what I thought - what’s Richard doing promoting Alien’s new website !!!?

Looking good. I will have one situation for you come next spring when my wife (in the final stages of getting a British passport) joins me in Taiwan. Unlike poor old Subway52’s better half, she will have a UK passport. However there are still confusing issues with regard to whether she must have resided in the UK for four years before applying for a visa. By the time I get my ARC she probably will have. I will enjoy the irony of a mainland Chinese person getting a JFRV on the strength of a resident non-Chinese alien. But will MOFA ?

Anyway until we meet in Taiwan (and I hope we will) good luck with the site.

6

A webcam? Like hell…

7

Thanks for the site, Richard.

“Aliens living in Taiwanese society are confronted with many human rights problems.”

Yeah, shut those damn drills off and shove them up your right human problem!

8

Great stuff Richard, you have my support all the way. Haven’t had a chance to read it all yet but I will in my lunch break today.
Let’s get some basic human rights, I have lived here for 4 years, married with children, and still feel like I’m pushed to the outside by the Government.
Richard - GO FOR IT

9

Richard
the web site is excellent, i suggest that everybody pass this web site along to a friend, you have my support.and i hope alot more will come out and help you.

10

Dear Richard
Thanks for this very informative site, I will definitely recommend it to foreign friends whom are new and are unfamiliar with the legal affairs of Taiwan. I’m sure it will be a source of valuable information for many many years, & its benefits will be far reaching, more than you may know or expect. Thanks for the care & concern you have for others whom are also non-Taiwanese and would like to make their home here as well. Cheers :laughing: :smiley: :wink:

11

Wow! The site looks great and is chock full of useful stuff.

You state that most foreigners who’ve been here for over 5 years would like to get dual nationality if it were possible.
I wonder if that is true. If it involved a relatively simple process, perhaps.
I don’t want to sound too negative here, but surely anything remotely resembling dual nationality would be even harder to obtain than Permanent Residency. What do other people think?

12

RE: alientw.org/

There is full information on the website about the requirements for obtaining Permanent Residency and the requirements for obtaining Citizenship.

Check them out and let us know your conclusions.

13

Richard
The conclusion is that they are both much too difficult to obtain for ‘normal’ long-term foreign residents to bother with.
Have you considered lobbying for changes to the absurdly strict requirements for permanent residency? You could consider that as a warm-up for the Big Fight: dual nationality.

Two questions to ponder:

  1. How many long-term foreign residents would want dual nationality if permanent residency was relatively easy to obtain?

  2. What proportion of long-term foreign residents would want dual nationality even if it was handed to them on a plate? Maybe half? It would be great to have the option, but I don’t think it’s for everyone.

14

I am not certain that the seven year rule for PR is that unusual, or the 183-day residence rule. That is virtually the same as for HK PR. In the UK settlement (PR) for a work permit holder would normally be granted after 4 years provided the job is still continuing at the time of application. After settling, the person on leaving the UK would be re-admitted as a returning resident after an absence of up to 2 years.

Citizenship of the country you are living in has got to be a good thing. Obviously Taiwan has a problem with the quality of its armed forces (who apparently are unable to operate and maintain jeeps), and that is a problem the government will have to deal with in its own er, way. It is not practical to submit large numbers of foreigners to military service, and I don’t see how Taiwan would benefit from the military skills of a few thousand middle-aged English teachers in any war with China. Indeed, how many ex-conscripts are willing and fit to fight if called up anyway ? Some fat Chinese bank manager with 2 year’s military service in the 1980s isn’t going to be much use against a missile barrage from the mainland. Nor is the Canadian/Australian/American passport holding younger generation who by the time war breaks out will be watching it all on CNN from a sofa 8000 miles away !

The way forward first would appear to be to obtain meaningful PR rights which allow self-employment and lengthy overseas absences (for those round the world trips). What harm can that do Taiwan ? Most foreign residents pay more tax than most Taiwanese residents, and get bugger all of it spent on them.

Now about the website. In terms of nationality, it does not seem to be clear what is meant by Chinese ancestry. Surely this means Taiwanese Chinese ancestry ? A British passport-holding PRC-born person can prove Chinese ancestry, but is unlikely to qualify for treatment as an “Overseas Chinese” ? What is the status of such a person, either entering in his /her own right, or as the dependent of a foreign resident ?

Nationality Law
Article 4
A person who was born in the territory of the Republic of China.

But presumably my wife (born in Shanghai) will not qualify for this even if she does reside on a JFRV (derived from me, on her British passport) for the required period of three years ? Shanghai is in the ROC, or does the “ROC” now just mean “Taiwan” ?

I am printing out the texts from the site - very useful collection of info. One interesting aspect is the Taiwanese concept of “nationality”. Everyone in Northern Ireland is entitled to 2 passports (British / Irish). I got my third by being born in Australia. Plenty of people have three passports. Half of America seems to be entitled to an Irish passport at least. Which is of course great for Ireland ! The more Paddies in the States the more important Ireland becomes, out of all proportion to its size. The same could be true of Taiwan ! (How many people in the States give a damn about PRC/ROC relations as compared to those interested in Irish / British relations ? Ireland + UK population 62 million, likelihood of global thermonuclear war 0%; PRC + ROC popn 1.3 billion; liklihood of global thermonuclear war ??%)

I could conceivable get a fourth (Taiwanese) which would require renouncing and then resuming my British citizenship and having the shit kicked out of me for two years in the Army. Where then would that leave Taiwanese considerations of nationality? In short Richard, who the **** am I !!!??? Where do I get my CCRD from ? Why Australia of course ! I haven’t been there since 1974, so am unlikely to have committed any crimes !

So I am extremely dubious about all this talk of nationalism around the world - passports are bits of paper to help you get by in life - that’s what they were originally for before being hijacked by the patriotic lobby. And of course the whole Taiwanese patriotism argument falls down when yellow Taiwanese citizens are allowed to have two passports but white or brown one’s aren’t ! (As of course you point out). But there must surely be proper PR rights, including the right to form associations to protect the interests of PRs, especially in the total absence of any constitutional right to be heard at government level.

15

Are you sure that’s strictly true? I thought it was the order that mattered, i.e. if you have ROC citizenship originally, or a claim to it based on ancestry, and then acquire another, you can have both, but you can’t have another and then get ROC citizenship. In other words, even though I am deemed caucasian, I could feasibly obtain another country’s citizenship besides the ROC citizenship I currently hold. If anyone is willing to give me enough financial support to get another country’s passport, maybe I could be a good test case for this question. :smiley:

16

Let’s have a show of hands among long-term foreign residents.
Who would get dual nationality if it was reasonably easy to obtain? [sits on hands]
Another show of hands for “Thanks, but no thanks.” [scratches head]

17

Poagao, have you tried applying for a PRC Taiwan Compatriot I.D. Card (Taibaozheng?) Perhaps you could also get a PRC passport as many Taiwanese have.

18

Are you sure that’s strictly true? I thought it was the order that mattered, i.e. if you have ROC citizenship originally, or a claim to it based on ancestry, and then acquire another, you can have both, but you can’t have another and then get ROC citizenship. [/quote]

But you had to give up your original citizenship didn’t you ? Very few whities will be born Taiwanese, and then seek to acquire another passport. Most will be borm foreign and seek to obtain a Taiwanese passport. Note that Article 11 of the Nationality Law states that Taiwanese “citizen” who acquires another nationality or whose spouse is an alien will be stripped of their Taiwanese nationality. More meaningless gibberish from the Ministry of Contradiction. Boy they don’t like foreigners much in Taiwan do they ?

19

So you’re saying that Article 11 only applies to non-Chinese folks? Does it say that? Or is it just uniformly not enforced for all Taiwanese who obtain other citizenships?

Yes, I have a Taibaozheng as well as a HK ‘passport’. They seem to work just fine. My ROC passport has gotten me to the US and Australia, Singapore and Indonesia as well, no problems.

20

Some thoughts on the website

  1. Household Registration - was it adopted from Germany and not the Chinese system ?

  2. Anyone with documentable Chinese ancestry may obtain an Overseas Chinese Passport - doesn’t this mean Taiwanese Chinese ancestry (i.e. not mainlanders) ?

  3. For Type II citizens with direct relatives in the Taiwan area - meaning Taiwanese Chinese direct relatives - not aliens, for example if my PRC wife could obtain an Overseas Passport as above in (2) then she could apply for HH registration on this basis - I doubt it.

  4. The ROC does not respect the right to family life, indeed it is happy to split up families on the basis of race - hardly in keeping with the UN Charter or Declaration on HR, totally contrary to the EU Declaration of Human Rights, and the European legislation which led to the enactment of the Human Rights Act in the UK.

  5. Citizens without right of abode are not really citizens. Republics were established to get away from the ideas of obligations without rights, and the idea that men enjoy differing levels of privilege dependant on the patronage of the Crown. Whatever happened to “Liberte, Egalite, Pornographe!” or “No Taxation without Representation!” Furthermore naturalised “citizens” who are prevented from taking part in political life are not citizens either.

  6. If Taiwan does not consider itself bound to look after the basic human rights of aliens in its territory, this fact should be made known to potential travellers. The information provided to travellers by the US State Department or the FCO in London should reflect this, and representation should be made to their representatives in Taiwan. The ROC appears to feel that because of the absence of diplomatic relations, the words “Please don’t shit on our citizens” which are written on the inside of each passport (including the ROC one) are meaningless. So you’d like to rejoin the UN ?

  7. Chinese nationals from the PRC who have direct relatives in the Taiwan area. Please elaborate - this is interesting.

  8. The Nationality Law. Art 2 - a naturalised person “belongs to the nationality of the ROC”

  9. Art 4 - an alien who has been the ROC (note not “Taiwan”) for 5 years may be naturalised

  10. Art 4 - spouse of an ROC citizen = 3 years

  11. Art 4 - person born in the ROC = 3 years (does Shanghai count?)

  12. Art 10 - a naturalised alien is a second (or possibly third) class citizen

  13. Art 11 - a citizen of the ROC whose spouse is an alien is deprived of his citizenship. Eh ?

  14. Art 14 - but if the spouse would be left stateless, he can have his ROC nationality back again

  15. Art 18 - but can’t hold certain public offices for 3 years, just like a naturalised citizen

So it’s a balls.

British Nationality Law

British Subjects in the UK or colonies until 1947. Come and go as you please - right of abode wherever you like.

1948 Citizen of the UK and Colonies (CUKC) and British Protected Person and British Subjects Without Citizenship introduced.

1965-71 British passport no longer means right of abode in UK

British Nationality Act 1981 (implemented 1 Jan 83) CUKC abolished, those CUKCs with right of abode in the UK now British Citizens. Colonial CUKCs become British Dependent Territories Citizens (no right of abode in UK), other CUKCs become British Overseas Citizens (no right of abode).

1983 Falkland Islanders (white) become full British Citizens.

1985 Hong Kongers (yellow) previously BDTCs become British Nationals (Overseas) if they want (many already had better quality citizenship) (no right of anything not even residence in HK which is decided by the number of stars on your ID card - as I remember, 1 for alien residents, 3 for a PR, and 5 if you were born there. Certain Indians who had 5 stars had neither British, Indian, nor Chinese citizenship, and were stateless - the British Government and the Indian Government finally thrashed this out and the result was the British Nationality (Hong Kong) Act 1997 - they became full British Citizens)

Now we have six:

British Citizens - right of abode in UK
BDTCs - not many left, no right of abode
British Overseas Citizens - not many left either (no right of abode)
British Nationals Overseas - completely useless toilet roll substitute
British Protected Persons - from the old protectorates, didn’t tend to be very well protected
British Subjects - pointless category, mainly poor sods who didn’t become either CUKCs, or Pakistanis or Indians.

So you can see the thing to be is a British Citizen. In the same fashion as some kinds of ROC nationality, if you can manage to somehow get into Britain and stay long enough, you can become a British Citizen by registration. It is possible to have a British Passport, be in Britain, but not be able to work or get benefits. You can vote, though. Any British, Irish, or Commonwealth citizen can vote.

Naturalisation

Unlike the ROC scenario, once naturalised, a British Citizen is a British Citizen, and has full rights under the law. This is contrasted with Ireland, where a citizen who becomes so by Post-nuptial Declaration, cannot then after divorcing the Irish spouse from whom the naturalisation was derived, enable a new alien spouse to make a Post-nuptial Declaration. I digress.

If you are married to a British Citizen. Stay in Britain for 3 years, don’t be absent for more than 270 days in all and not more than 90 days in the final year, don