Michelle? Is that his middle name then? Damn! So his run for the presidency is just a giant case of over-compensation? It should be Michel, though, surely?
He was doing so well until the last phrase.
As far as I know, no other country on earth that is predominately caucasian has ever elected someone of african ancestry to serve as head of state. Accept it dude.
When it happens somewhere else, then you can argue it’s not such a big deal.
Jus’ remmemer that the Yoo Ess of Ay is the greatest cunnery inna world, bub. nd if’n ya don’t like it we’ll come over there and NUKE yer ass.
He’s president-elect of the biggest kid in the playground. If he says it’s not possible, then its not. Simple as that. Meet your new boss, same as the old boss. America. Love it or make peace with your maker.
That might be true, but Americans (especially Republicans, but both sides do it) are always going on and on about how it’s the greatest country in the world, and don’t realize how bloody arrogant it sounds.
I can’t really blame vegemite-snarfing roo-humpers and southern-hemisphere sheep-shaggers for getting miffed by that kind of arrogance. 
So what? As far as I know, no other country on earth that is predominantly Caucasian has ever elected someone Jewish to serve as head of state, other than England. What does that prove?
What’s to accept? I agree that no other country on earth that is predominately Caucasian has ever elected someone of African ancestry to serve as head of state. So what? This has nothing to do with what Obama said, which is that it is not possible anywhere else in the world other than the US. It’s this colossal, breathtaking, swaggering, arrogance, manifested even in the most likable of liberals, which constantly amazes me.
DB, thanks for understanding. I’ll acknowledge freely that a large part of the reason why this gets up my sinuses is that I have a strong personal distaste for patriotism in any form, regardless of the country.
I wave no flag for Australia either. I’ve already explained why I think an Aboriginal Prime Minister in Australia is a vanishingly remote possibility any time in the foreseeable future.
I haven’t argued it’s ‘not such a big deal’. Given the history of the US, it’s an amazingly big deal.
You were at Grant Park? You were a witness to history! Wish I could have been there!
I watched it live from the computer at the office. Didn’t see you in the crowd… 
That’s the current U.S. administration. A huge portion of the populace has lived in shame for the past 8 years that our administration feels and acts that way and that our people elected such idiots to lead us, because we do not feel at all that way. Finally, after getting it wrong twice, the people of America have decisively shown that they reject such thinking and look forward to more intelligent, rational and humane dealings with the rest of humanity. It should be apparent from the jubilation over Obama’s election that Americans are thankful at last to be rid of such idiocy and look forward to a positive change.
We’ll see. I’m not so cynical and have more confidence in Obama’s intelligence and sincere motivation to do good.
Based on the past 8 years, it’s understandable people jump to negative kneejerk conclusions about America/ns, but if thats how they perceive my comments on the black as head of state issue, they’re wrong and should exhibit some restraint in drawing conclusions and try to listen first to what I have to say. I’m not boasting about how great America is; just pondering this historic event and trying to evaluate and understand it.
So what? As far as I know, no other country on earth that is predominantly Caucasian has ever elected someone Jewish to serve as head of state, other than England. What does that prove?[/quote]
No need to be so argumentative. While I believe your analogy is wrong (aren’t Israelis caucasian?), that would also be a notable fact. But not as notable in my opinion. Being black in a white world is much more noticeable and likely to lead to discrimination than being jewish in a white world. But I’m not interested in comparing dick sizes. I’m only interested in contemplating this historic event we’ve just witnessed.
No argument there. You wasted your energy gathering all those anti-patriotism quotes. It’s funny that you’ve been trying to portray me as some flag waving patriot when I’ve been attacked by the neocon wing of forumosa, in the past, for being an un-patriotic, treasonous, commie-lover. In truth, you’re both wrong. I love many things about my country, but I’ve never believed at all in blind flag-waving, love-it-or-leave-it patriotism. In fact, I got in trouble in 3d grade for refusing to stand for the pledge of allegiance, in case that matters. If you truly believe my point is simply that America is the greatest nation on earth, please listen more closely.
I haven’t argued it’s ‘not such a big deal’. Given the history of the US, it’s an amazingly big deal.[/quote]
Ok, you haven’t argued that it’s “not such a big deal.” That’s a start. I would go a step further. I don’t believe it’s mere trivia that this never happened before. The world is filled with racial hatred, prejudice and discrimination. I think that’s a good part of the reason this never happened before. And I think it’s noteworthy that white voters got past all of that and had confidence in a black man to lead their nation. I believe it IS a big deal that a mostly white nation has elected a black as head of state.
As for your comment that, “given the history of the US, it’s an amazingly big deal,” I recognize that you’ve been attacking me and my country since I started this discussion and that’s meant as a further dig at America – apparently insinuating that America has lots of racial problems. I won’t give you the pleasure of arguing with that notion. I agree that America has a long history of racial problems: the Civil War, discriminatory business practices, race riots, separate and unequal treatment, disparate arrests, sentencing and execution of prisoners, and so forth. So in a way you’re right that it is an amazingly big deal this would happen in a country with so much racist baggage.
But what you’ve so far refused to even consider due to your apparent hostilities for the U.S., preferring to jump to your erroneous flag-waving accusations, is the possibility that maybe – given the history of the U.S. – it’s also not surprising that this historic event should happen in the US.
As I explained before, it’s my understanding that few, if any, countries, have such a long history of having to face, and then struggling to work through, brutal issues of racism between whites and blacks. I’ve read news articles about black football players and that black race car driver enduring racist taunts throughout Europe. And I’ve read about hostility for immigrants, particularly African immigrants throughout Europe. But I understand that these issues have only arisen in recent decades, because before that there were very few African immigrants in Europe. Europe was white, so the people didn’t have to face issues of living with and accepting Africans as equal citizens. In America we’ve been dealing with that for almost 200 years (funny to be arguing ancient history in the US v. Europe, but in this regard I believe it’s true).
Can you imagine a black head of state in France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, or Scotland (yes, that’s for you sandy)? While I’m only vaguely familiar with the pulse of those nations, I can’t see that happening in the next few decades (although Obama’s election will surely have a positive effect worldwide). It’s not at all that the people of those nations are inferior to – or more racist than Americans – but solely that they haven’t dealt with major issues of black/white relations for over 150 years, so brutally, openly and continuously, as Americans have.
Racism is an ugly truth worldwide, if not in the open at least simmering below the surface. But in the US we’ve struggled massively over the centuries, time and again (from the Civil War through the Civil Rights Movement through Rodney King and OJ, etc), to bring the issues to the surface and deal with them honestly and openly, as one does with a wound to avoid infection. For that reason, I’m not saying that America is better or less racist than the rest of the world, but I believe it’s not mere coincidence that this historic event happened in the U.S.; it may have been particularly likely to occur there.
First, I didn’t say that; Obama did. I’m not so cynical. I don’t believe at all that it’s not possible for another white nation to elect a black head of state. I was interested to hear, as opposed to mere kneejerk reactions, jaboney’s thoughtful response concerning other nations where it could happen. And of course it’s possible it could happen anywhere, given enough time.
But “colossal, breathtaking, swaggering arrogance”? Not at all. That’s pure hyperbole on your part. For christ sake, the guy just completed an exhausting two-year marathon campaign and was elected president of hte U.S. He has reason be elated and to be thankful to the electorate. It’s not uncommon for politicians to refer to their nation as the greatest on earth. I’m sure Obama would acknowledge that it is possible it might happen in another country some day, but for now he’s simply immensely relieved that the campaign is over, he was elected, and he is making the mandatory and customary types of utterances that one would expect of any politician.
God bless America. :America: 
You were at Grant Park? You were a witness to history! Wish I could have been there!
I watched it live from the computer at the office. Didn’t see you in the crowd… [/quote]
Yep. I wasn’t in the main area where O made his speech. That was blocked off. Besides Grant park is large, and everyone just took over the place. It was a beautiful night. Nov 4th, balmy weather :loco: for Chicago. So, :loco: that O referred to it as an Autumn night. Everyone was chill, no attitude from the police 
and I even met some students from Taiwan who were really excited about the whole thing, but disappointed that there wasn’t any Chou dofu being sold with the pizza and hot dogs.
Now about a person of color being elected to head another (white) country. Does it really make that much of a difference? And does every country have to follow America’s lead. Jezzz.
And all this arguing about it was possible because of the civil rights and past AA efforts. No, just say the election of a person of color was one of the brighter parts of the Bush administration. People got so damned sick of his shit that all that shit blew open people’s minds. It’s amazing what people will do when they are just “sick and tired of being sick and tired.”*
*thank you Fannie Lou Hammer.
Of course not. Nor does America need to elect a woman next, then a Chinese-American, then a homosexual, then a blind person, etc. As I’ve said, I voted for Obama because I believe he’s bright, competent and was the most qualified candidate, not as an “empowerment” vote. But, it’s completely disingenous to act as though it’s no big deal a black guy was elected president in a mostly white country. It IS a big deal. The world is filled with racism. This was a remarkable demonstration of how people were willing and able to overlook racism. It’s one very promising sign of the progress of humanity in one simple little way. There’s no need for other countries to do the same; that’s not the point. But it IS a major event, so it seems reasonable to ponder how it came to be.
Of course not. Nor does America need to elect a woman next, then a Chinese-American, then a homosexual, then a blind person, etc. As I’ve said, I voted for Obama because I believe he’s bright, competent and was the most qualified candidate, not as an “empowerment” vote. But, it’s completely disingenous to act as though it’s no big deal a black guy was elected president in a mostly white country. It IS a big deal. The world is filled with racism. This was a remarkable demonstration of how people were willing and able to overlook racism. It’s one very promising sign of the progress of humanity in one simple little way. There’s no need for other countries to do the same; that’s not the point. But it IS a major event, so it seems reasonable to ponder how it came to be.[/quote]
Ponder on how what came to be? The fact that O proved to people that if you keep your eye on the message and never waiver, you can accomplish what you put your mind to? People have known that for years. Nothing special about a black man doing that.
Quit playing so naive. Do you really find it unsurprising that a black man was elected president? I don’t believe you do. I believe all of you somehow find it cool to act casual about it, like it’s no big deal, like “hey, we’re all post racism, racism died long ago, get a clue dude.” Others don’t feel a need to put on that act.
[quote]Family members of slain civil rights leader Martin Luther King Junior have praised Barack Obama’s election as US President-elect.
Dr King’s sister, Christine King Farris, says black Americans have reached the promised land her brother spoke about in Memphis 40 years ago.
The preacher’s son, Martin Luther King III, has described Mr Obama’s election as a monumental step forward for America. [/quote]
bigpond.com/news/world/content/2 … 412541.asp
[quote]. . . Jackson had already gone on National Public Radio to explain those Grant Park tears.
He said: "Well, on the one hand, I saw President Barack Obama standing there looking so majestic.
"And I knew that people in the villages of Kenya and Haiti, and mansions and palaces in Europe and China, were all watching this young African-American male assume the leadership to take our nation out of a pit to a higher place.
"And then, I thought of who was not there,’’ Jackson said. "Medgar Evers, the husband of Sister Myrlie. …So the martyrs and murdered whose blood made last night possible. I could not help think that this was their night.
“And if I had one wish: If Medgar, or if Dr. King could have just been there for a second in time, would have made my heart rejoice. And so it was kind of duo-fold – his ascension into leadership and the price that was paid to get him there.”[/quote]
latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing … ckson.html
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Quit playing so naive. Do you really find it unsurprising that a black man was elected president? I don’t believe you do. I believe all of you somehow find it cool to act casual about it, like it’s no big deal. Others don’t feel a need to act that way.[/quote] Yes and no. As I reflect back on it all, being that I’ve been here for the whole duration of the election, watching it, listening to people. Reading as much as I could stomach, I do believe that he was elected on his own accord. So no it isn’t surprising. He stuck to the message, and wouldn’t let race or anything else deter him from that goal. That is, to put it bluntly, mutherfucking amazing. :beatnik: I have enough trouble just staying focused on cleaning my house.
Now yes,it is because he had a lot of convincing to do. But again, I heard his Grant Park speech first hand, and the energy from it, made something finally click in my head: No matter what “they” try to say or do, it is possible. Obtaining your goals is possible. And this has been proven over and over again. In many countries, and places.
“I had to say ‘I want to cut his balls off’. Damn I could be back stage now.” 
Seriously, like I overheard from a brother on the bus that night who was asked, how did it feel. He said, there are no words to describe what I feel. I’m overwhelmed. What Jessie must have felt that night, I can’t even begin to admit I have a clue to what he’s experiencing .
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“Mother Theresa”]Quit playing so naive. Do you really find it unsurprising that a black man was elected president? I don’t believe you do. I believe all of you somehow find it cool to act casual about it, like it’s no big deal. Others don’t feel a need to act that way.[/quote] Yes and no. As I reflect back on it all, being that I’ve been here for the whole duration of the election, watching it, listening to people. Reading as much as I could stomach, I do believe that he was elected on his own accord. So no it isn’t surprising. He stuck to the message, and wouldn’t let race or anything else deter him from that goal. That is, to put it bluntly, mutherfucking amazing. :beatnik: I have enough trouble just staying focused on cleaning my house.
Now yes,it is because he had a lot of convincing to do. But again, I heard his Grant Park speech first hand, and the energy from it, made something finally click in my head: No matter what “they” try to say or do, it is possible. Obtaining your goals is possible. And this has been proven over and over again. In many countries, and places.
“I had to say ‘I want to cut his balls off’. Damn I could be back stage now.”
Seriously, like I overheard from a brother on the bus that night who was asked, how did it feel. He said, there are no words to describe what I feel. I’m overwhelmed. What Jessie must have felt that night, I can’t even begin to admit I have a clue to what he’s experiencing .[/quote]
I recall being baffled, Nama, when I said that his acceptance speech at the end of the Democratic Convention was one of the most powerful speeches I’d ever heard and your reply was along the lines of “you’ve got to be kidding.”
I was baffled because I, as a white, conservative Christian male from a rural background and a lifelong Republican to boot, should have been among the last to “get” the content of Obama’s character and you among the first.
What’s really changed between then and now? I’m curious.
[quote=“spook”]
I recall being baffled, Nama, when I said that his acceptance speech at the end of the Democratic Convention was one of the most powerful speeches I’d ever heard and your reply was along the lines of “you’ve got to be kidding.”
I was baffled because I, as a white, conservative Christian male from a rural background and a lifelong Republican to boot, should have been among the last to “get” the content of Obama’s character and you among the first.
What’s really changed between then and now? I’m curious.[/quote]
My attitude maybe? I didn’t like his DNC speech and still don’t like it. Why should I be the first to “get” the content of his character? Cause he’s black? Obama and I have very little in common.One, Obama doesn’t get the “black experience” nor does he care to. I have more in common with his wife.
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“spook”]
I recall being baffled, Nama, when I said that his acceptance speech at the end of the Democratic Convention was one of the most powerful speeches I’d ever heard and your reply was along the lines of “you’ve got to be kidding.”
I was baffled because I, as a white, conservative Christian male from a rural background and a lifelong Republican to boot, should have been among the last to “get” the content of Obama’s character and you among the first.
What’s really changed between then and now? I’m curious.[/quote]
My attitude maybe? I didn’t like his DNC speech and still don’t like it. Why should I be the first to “get” the content of his character? Cause he’s black? Obama and I have very little in common.One, Obama doesn’t get the “black experience” nor does he care to. I have more in common with his wife.[/quote]
Obama is as much white as he is black so it’s not because you’re black. It’s because you’re both from the same urban environment and, to a degree, political culture and I presumed you understood the nuances much better. When you were skeptical I, as an outsider, had to assume you knew something I didn’t and disillusionment lay down the road. It didn’t happen though and, lo and behold, you’re behind Obama now.
[quote=“spook”]
Obama is as much white as he is black so it’s not because you’re black. It’s because you’re both from the same urban environment and, to a degree, political culture and I presumed you understood the nuances much better. When you were skeptical I, as an outsider, had to assume you knew something I didn’t and disillusionment lay down the road. It didn’t happen though and, lo and behold, you’re behind Obama now.[/quote]
No really. What makes you think I’m behind O now? I enjoyed the speech GP. It was an electrifying moment. But so was seeing Oprah buying socks on Michigan ave. Obama and I are not from the same urban environment. We don’t even move in the same type of circles. If you compared our backgrounds, same thing. I have one thing in common with his daughters. And his wife and I are both from the South side of Chicago. But she’s from a more “elitist” area than I was and we’re both hot ( 
:beatnik: )
And what is the political culture you speak of? And what are the nuances he makes that I would understand better? (just asking;not interrogating)
I’m still disillusioned by Obama. See avatar. I’m not all that crazy for him. But I can give the man props for running a damned good campaign. And for his work ethic/attitude. I could use a LOT more “can do” attitude on some days…
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“spook”]
I recall being baffled, Nama, when I said that his acceptance speech at the end of the Democratic Convention was one of the most powerful speeches I’d ever heard and your reply was along the lines of “you’ve got to be kidding.”
I was baffled because I, as a white, conservative Christian male from a rural background and a lifelong Republican to boot, should have been among the last to “get” the content of Obama’s character and you among the first.
What’s really changed between then and now? I’m curious.[/quote]
My attitude maybe? I didn’t like his DNC speech and still don’t like it. Why should I be the first to “get” the content of his character? Cause he’s black? Obama and I have very little in common.One, Obama doesn’t get the “black experience” nor does he care to. I have more in common with his wife.[/quote]
Reality, at last.
[quote=“Namahottie”][quote=“spook”]
I recall being baffled, Nama, when I said that his acceptance speech at the end of the Democratic Convention was one of the most powerful speeches I’d ever heard and your reply was along the lines of “you’ve got to be kidding.”
I was baffled because I, as a white, conservative Christian male from a rural background and a lifelong Republican to boot, should have been among the last to “get” the content of Obama’s character and you among the first.
What’s really changed between then and now? I’m curious.[/quote]
My attitude maybe? I didn’t like his DNC speech and still don’t like it. Why should I be the first to “get” the content of his character? Cause he’s black? Obama and I have very little in common.One, Obama doesn’t get the “black experience” nor does he care to. I have more in common with his wife.[/quote]
Ohh no you didn’T???!! (snap and swish) He didn’t grow up in your neighborhood, but he chose to spend several years there doing community organizing. I think just cause he didn’t have a life like yours doesn’t mean he has no insight into the black experience IMHO.
Bodo
[quote=“Bodo”]
Ohh no you didn’T???!! (snap and swish) He didn’t grow up in your neighborhood, but he chose to spend several years there doing community organizing. I think just cause he didn’t have a life like yours doesn’t mean he has no insight into the black experience IMHO.
Bodo[/quote]
Oh yes I did, girlfriend(snap and swish) please don’t even try to go there with me. What do you know about my neighborhood? Nothing, so 
and he spent THREE years in Altgeld Gardens (Da projects, I did not grow up in the projects, :no-no: ) And like many people who teach English in taiwan and come to face the reality of making a difference, Obama did the same, he got the F$%$k out and went to law school. Hell Mayor Daley has more insight into the black experience than he does.