Old discussions about guarantors (Wherefore a Guarantor?)

Original Title: Wherefore a Guarantor?


Moderator’s note: This thread has been locked, and is made up several old discussions merged together. The new thread on this subject can be found here.

I would like to know the legality of asking foreign residents for a Taiwanese guarantor in areas where a Taiwanese resident would not be required to have one. I have had a long-running battle with Taiwan Fixed Line Network (part of Taiwan Da-Ge-Da) about this, as they require a Taiwan guarantor for ADSL as well as Cellular service. Their new policy regarding cellular service doesn’t affect those who registered with their ARC’s before this policy went into effect, so my
da-ge-da account isn’t affected.

However I strongly object to the premise that a foreign resident is somehow less reliable than a local one. Their reasoning was that foreigners could leave Taiwan at any time; therefore they were likely to skip out on the bill. Even a rich expatriate country manager of a multi-national company, living in a mansion in Yangmingshan, and pulling in an astronomical income would still require a local guarantor, even if that guarantor were the part-time 18 yr old “Xiao Mei” doing reception at his/her office in the morning. It is not about income, nor about residency, but about discrimination, at least in my books.

When I questioned this, the woman in customer service, a manager by the name of Cheng (Zheng) told me that it was the Filipinos and Thais that were unreliable, not people “like you”. (Her words!) I asked her if I could quote her, and she of course got nervous and backed down. I asked her if there were many OCWs applying for ADSL service, and she said she didn’t have the exact figures. I asked her if Taiwanese weren’t also allowed to leave the country, and didn’t some Taiwanese citizens become a credit risk when they left Taiwan to move to China? She admitted that this was a problem also, but that they could not require all Taiwanese to have third-party guarantors, only foreigners.

Anyway, she promised to look into the matter, and lo and behold, three months and a hundred phone calls later, I received a form that allowed me to use direct withdrawal from my bank account as security. I don’t know why they view that as being secure, because I could always clean out my bank account if I didn’t want them to touch it. (Interestingly enough, I did not have to use my ARC when I opened my account years ago.) She told me that all foreigners would be told of this option, as I had pressed her to change the policy not only for my case, but for all foreigners.

A month after that I helped a friend apply for ADSL service, and the staff in the office had never heard of this policy - they insisted that my friend get a guarantor, as that was the company policy.

Whether or not the management at Taiwan Fixed Line was trying to pull a fast one, or if they were just not disseminating their new policy to the branches, I guess I’ll never know.

I would like to know what other people’s experience with battling the “Taiwan Guarantor” syndrome is. I had to make multiple phone calls at FNAC, before they would let me participate in their customer credit “pay in installments” program. Some credit card companies (American Express, for one) welcome me with open arms, others won’t even return my phone calls when they find out I am a foreigner. I am also interested in the legality of this. I do not believe Canada or the US allows companies to discriminate against stable, working, tax-paying residents, just because they are not voting citizens. :unamused:

I’ve encountered this kind of thing before too. I was turned down for a credit card because I was a foreigner and therefore (presumably unlike Chinese) could leave anytime, and even more frustrating was when I was turned down for Hire Purchase for a bunch of appliances after shopping and comparing models for hours, for the same reasons. They said it wasn’t their store policy but the policy of the bank that did the credit.

I wonder if this sort of thing is legal. Maybe it is. I guess banks can turn down anyone they like – they have no obligation to loan anybody money in the absence of anti-discrimination laws.

Well I respect you for trying to fight it. Every effort helps.

Can you provide more details? Where were you shopping? What were you planning to buy? What was the total cost? Which bank was involved? When did all of this happen?

Unfortunately it was several months ago now so I can’t really remember. A big electronic appliance store. Maybe Daiichi. They didn’t tell me the name of the bank, and I think it was about NT$ 40,000. They were all ready to go for it, and we’d discussed the Hire Purchase details and everything until someone told me I couldn’t and they rang someone else at the bank and there really didn’t seem anything more I could do.

I paid cash for one of the things, but still want the other two, so I guess I could try again if you think it would be worth it. Is it actually illegal or of dubious legality?

This Guarantor requirement is so humiliating. Mr. Hartzell please do what you can, this is blatent example of discrimination. I hate it. Luckily, I have someone that can be my guarantor no questions asked, but I am getting so sick of this!

I had the same problem about 4 weeks ago :frowning:

An Internet Provider (cannot remember their name), was selling ADSL connections in the foyer of my apartment building. So I signed up, went to the 7-11 to photocopy my ARC, and everything was sweet. But then they told me that I needed a guarantor!

They said this was a requirement of the telecom company (Chunghwa Telecom in Kaohsiung), not the IP company. And they were so surprised when I refused and walked away from the deal. Is there a way around this?

I applied for a credit card with the backing of my company. My company stood as the guarantor. I guess the bank that issued it would feel secure that in case I “run away”, my company has all my personal records and the bank can consequently chase after me.

But it’s true. I tried to apply for other credit cards from banks (not recognized by my company) and was flatly declined since I am a foreigner. That’s what they all say. “No way, woiguoren!”

Dear Mr. Hartzell,

In my experience, this is a common occurence in Taiwan. I would not even apply for a credit card by myself anymore. I just let my ROC wife do it, so I do not have many recent examples. I do remember my credit card from China Trust bank on Ren Ai Rd. needed a guarantor when I applied about four years ago.

Richard, try to apply for a credit card without your Taiwanese wife’s help and see what happens.

To Others: What about GSM service providers? Does one need a guarantor for GSM service? It was over 5 years ago that I got mobile phone service so I do not remember.

Taiwan Da Ge Da currently requires all new foreign subscribers to have a Taiwan guarantor.

Regarding my experience with in-store credit (hire/purchase as Bu Lai En puts it), I was initially rejected without explanation when I applied for this program at FNAC. I went through several ranks of managers who were very vague about my reasons for disqualification. Their refrain? “That’s our company policy – I don’t know why, nor can I outline what the details of this policy are, nor can I fax them to you.” Finally I was transferred to a French manager. The finance company FNAC was using at the time was Cetelem, a French firm, and this guy had some sort of supervisory position. Anyway, this man was very helpful. He said that if I could fulfill all the payments before the expiration of my ARC, they would be able to accept me.

Apparently they were under the impression that when an ARC expires (yearly, for most foreigners), one was obligated to leave the country, and conversely that until that ARC expired, one could not leave Taiwan. As it turned out, that only slightly increased the monthly payments on my purchase (an IBM computer), so I of course agreed, the papers were drawn up, and the next day, the truck pulled up with my new computer.

The moral here? If somebody is giving you the runaround, be nice, be polite, ask for their name and position, and then ask to speak to their superior. Repeat process if necessary. Eventually, you will find your answer. Sometimes, though, when the policy is blatantly discriminatory, the truth is offensive. :frowning:

Maoman, your experience at FNAC is not a good example as they are a French company so they could commiserate with you. If it had been a Taiwanese company and even had you remained calm and polite, I do not believe you would have gotten the same result. Still always good form to remain calm and polite, lest foreigners develope a bad reputation here and ruin it for us all.

Even stranger. My bank, ICBC, doesn’t let me use my ATM card abroad, even though it’s marked Cirrus etc. Firstly I was told that this was because I only had a one year visa, and then simply because I was a foreigner. The fact that I am a foreigner here would indicate that I may wish to use the card abroad… Anyway it’s my cash, and I don’t have an overdraft facility so I don’t see what the problem is. Even worse was an airline I took from Taichung to Taipei, if you used your Loyalty card you got a free gift and a discount, except if you’re a foreigner. Also to apply for the card locals simply filled in a form at the desk, foreigners forms had to be sent to head office for a month or so.

I have had several experiences regarding the guarantor requirement, but one remains clear in my mind: trying to apply for a credit card through my company’s bank.

China Trust Bank also requires a guarantor. Even my company’s accountant accompanied me, but the bank wouldn’t budge. I don’t believe they mentioned that my company could be the guarantor. Regardless, I was miffed that I was required to have a guarantor, particularly since I had been banking with that bank for many years.

I even said why didn’t they use my other credit cards as a guarantee. I mean, if I couldn’t pay China Trust back, then they could just charge it to one of my other US cards; then it would be out of their hands and the responsibility of my US cards. It made sense to me. But no go. So I’ve just given up. I didn’t want to inconvenience any local friends to be my guarantor and I suppose I really don’t need another piece of plastic anyway.

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Re-topia Revolving Clearance!

I think the reason that they want a guarantor is simple … you are not an ROC citizen and have no assets in Taiwan … if they gave me a credit card without a guarantor, … and I did a bunk…who could they come after … the same reason applies to hire purchase …

It a b*tch of a policy but Taiwanese are super careful in money matters … they just want to make sure their is no way they can be ripped off …

Do you ever see the number of times they count the money at the counter after taking it out of the drawer or at the ATM?

Let’s not forget apartment contracts, something the majority of foreign residents have to deal with.

Isn’t a deposit already a guarantee?

I think there is some hope in ameliorating this situation. A few years ago, I remember having been in Taiwan only a couple of weeks, and then being told by my employer I needed a Chinese guarantor to get a work visa. (No assistance in this matter provided by the company, and no Chinese willing to do this for a fresh off the plane foreigner.)Now, it seems the majority of foreigner residents don’t need an ARC guarantor, though I’ve heard certain countries’ nationals, such as Pakistan, do.

Actually, I thought Mr Hartzell’s article yesterday did a good job–pointed questions; he didn’t need to press or make a scene, because the OfficialSpeak shone through quite clearly on its own. Sometimes keeping yourself above the fray makes the most mordant impression.

This may be the ‘reason’ but does it make it legal or justifiable. I guess it depends on the case.

Firstly are they discriminatig because you are a ‘foreigner’, ie non-Chinese, or becuase you don’t have an ID card or citizenship. It would be interesting to see if these policies applied to ‘h0nkies’ with Permanent Residency or citizenship. But this is probably a moot point because for most of us on ARCs it has the same effect.

The second issue is whether there are laws or regulations in place that stop them discriminating. Is there an assumption that having an ARC gives you rights to do ‘normal’ everyday things in Taiwan? Who has the right to curtail these rights. If I remember rightly, Hartzell’s success in winning a 6-year licence was because the decision to grant foreigners 1=year licences based on the length oft heir ARC’s was made at a department level, which doesn’t have the authority to curtail basic rights.

Thirdly we can consider it morally wrong if the government itself discriminates against foreigners (or allows private interests to do so) in situations where Taiwanese would have no trouble in our own countries.

Richard: Are there any basic laws covering this or is it all on a ‘case by case’ basis?

PS About the aprtments. I didn’t have to have any guarantor when I signed my lease.

It doesn’t need to be justifiable … it is at the bank manager’s discretion to issue what he wants to certain customers. I think it is the same practice everywhere in the world.

If a bank doesn’t want to give you a credit card, then that is it. You can’t sue them for not giving you a loan of their money.

Did anyone ever thing of getting a ‘credit card’ and bumping some money into it, therefore it is not in credit. Would banks accept this?

Rregarding ARCs, these apparently just give you the right to reside here. There is no accompanying regulation which says that a foreigner must be treated the same way as you would treat a Taiwanese, (although some of you out there might expect this).

Is not getting a credit card a violation of civil/human rights?

I don’t think so, if I was a Taiwanese bank manager or on the board of directors I would not give a foreigner a credit card, unless there was an apartment in his name or he had something I could get if he did a runner.

Also not all Taiwanese can get credit cards.

Extreme as this may be, it is probabily a simple principle we all use in business.
If you were my friend, would you give me a loan of NT$ 50,000,000, if there was no definite way you could get it back? Suppose I ran off to
Timbucktwo???

In general I wonder does the Taiwanese government discriminate against foreigners. I would like to know the experiences of foreigners working in western countries and the hassles they have with their Visa/ARC, credit cards, etc. I doubt that Taiwan stands alone here.

Sure, but in many (most?) western countries there are laws against discrimination. If a bank manager in the west said “It’s because you’re Chinese”, that would be illegal in most western countries. That was why I made the distinction. Is it becuase you only have an ARC or because you’re a ‘foreigner’ (which in Taiwan-speak means white).

You mean it is in credit - they owe you money. I haven’t done this in Taiwan, but I often do it with my other credit cards when I’m travelling and it’s fine.

It is if the bank’s negative decision on your case is based purely on your race, sex, religion or something – as long as you believe freedom from discrimination is a right.

I don’t get this logic. It’s really just as easy for the holderof a Taiwanese passport to skip the country as it is for a foreigner. And I do rent an apartmentin my name.

It’s so easy for Taiwanese to get credit cards. Students with no job or anything can run up 100s of 1000s of dollars in debt just like that. They’ve had to start banning credit cards from campuses the banks are so eager to foist their cards on students.

Ok, the only other country I’ve lived in (apart from my own) was England. I found it difficult to get a bank account (many native English people also have difficulty) but once I did, the credit card company gave me a card based on the (modest) wages I was getting at my temporary job. I had been in the country three weeks, had no fixed address and got a card limit three times what I’d ever been able to get in my own country.

More to the point, if banks are discriminating because you’re a ‘foreigner’, do banks in the US discriminate because you’re Asian?

Sure, but in many (most?) western countries there are laws against discrimination. If a bank manager in the west said “It’s because you’re Chinese”, that would be illegal in most western countries. That was why I made the distinction. Is it becuase you only have an ARC or because you’re a ‘foreigner’ (which in Taiwan-speak means white).[/quote]
Yes I agree with that … but how do you change that … they could say they are refusing you a credit card for a lot of different reasons … you have no credit history etc … I don’t think they would say it is because you are a “whitey” …

You mean it is in credit - they owe you money. I haven’t done this in Taiwan, but I often do it with my other credit cards when I’m travelling and it’s fine.

It is if the bank’s negative decision on your case is based purely on your race, sex, religion or something – as long as you believe freedom from discrimination is a right.

ZHUKOV: Discrimination is an interesting word … when does it become discrimination ?
It’s everywhere … hiding under different guises
Pretty girl won’t shag a fat slob in Roxy 99. Is she discrimating against him cause he doesn’t fit a profile … bet your ass she is!

I don’t get this logic. It’s really just as easy for the holder of a Taiwanese passport to skip the country as it is for a foreigner. Anyway, I do rent an apartment in my name.

ZHUKOV: Renting and owning are two different things. I could skip back to Europe. Where would a Taiwanese skip to? The bank sees a higher probability in a foreigner doing a skip than a Taiwanese.

It’s so easy for Taiwanese to get credit cards. Students with no job or anything can run up 100s of 1000s of dollars in debt just like that. They’ve had to start banning credit cards from campuses because the banks are so eager to foist their cards on students.

ZHUKOV: Yes cause they are Taiwanese … we are foreigners … we don’t have ID cards … and it goes back to the logic above … I must ask the hobo that is around our apartment … how many credit cards does he have?

Ok, the only other country I’ve lived in (apart from my own) was England. I found it difficult to get a bank account (many native English people also have difficulty) but once I did, the credit card company gave me a card based on the (modest) wages I was getting at my temporary job. I had been in the country three weeks, had no fixed address and got a card limit three times what I’d ever been able to get in my own country.

More to the point, if the banks are discriminating because you’re a ‘foreigner’, do banks in the US discriminate because you’re Asian?
ZHUKOV: Have you ever dealt with banks in Germany … Their favorite word … “IMPOSSIBLE!”

I’d be interested to know if any foreigners have successfully applied for a credit card in Taiwan without a local guarantor.

I have an American Express card that I got locally on my own merit, but I’m having a heck of a time getting a local Visa or MasterCard without a guarantor.

I tried Citibank, but they only issue cards to foreigners working in one of Taiwan’s 500 biggest companies. Apparently my company (a relatively small consulting company) doesn’t rank. I could get a card as a supplemental card holder if my girlfriend or other friend is listed as the primary card holder, but that’s not really an option I want to pursue. (N.B. Apparently Citibank is the only bank that issues supplemental cards to people with a non-marital or family relationship, which I guess is good news if you and your significant other want to have a joint credit account.)

I have a good credit history back in my native land, a good credit record with American Express Taiwan, I’ve lived at the same address for five and a half years, and worked at the same company for six and a half years. My income meets the standards required. Dang but this is frustrating. :s :unamused: :fume:

Is American Express the only card issuer in Taiwan that serves the foreign community? My girlfriend has (generously) offered to be my guarantor with a local bank, but I would rather not have that between us at this point in our relationship. Any suggestions from those in the know?

Previous posts have talked about credit. What if I don’t want to use their money, just my own?

Can anyone tell me if they know if a non-citizen successfully getting a DEBIT CARD without a guarantor? I opened an account with Chinatrust last week expecting to get a Visa-badged debit card so that I could pay for things out of my account. The person opening the account told me that “foreigners” could only get an ATM card on an account, nothing else.

“Look,” she said, pointing to a paragraph in the account agreement that (as far as I could see) bore no relation to ATM or debit cards at all… I asked how foreigners are supposed to pay for things in Taiwan. She shrugged and gave me that look which says “That’s how it is waiguoren!”

I’ve got an ARC and I’ve the usual stack of credit cards from “home” but I’d really rather pay for stuff in Taiwan from a Taiwanese account, using Taiwanese money!

I’m prepared to put a reasonable amount of money into a bank that will give me a debit card without the hassle of a guarantor. Anyone know where I can find one? Or any idea what we can do about it. Surely there’s a niche there for some bank to exploit.

Do I really have to keep going to the ATM or use a foreign-issued card everytime I buy something costing more than what I’ve got in my pocket.