‘Online’ Bank’s xenophobic reasoning for denying "foreigners" the ability to open an account online

Taiwan Discrimination in Taiwan
981

Richart/Taishin have called me a couple of times yesterday and today to finalize the half-solution proposed above. There was a customer service lady and some manager from the headquarters (Richart or Taishin – not entirely sure, but she was just chipping in in Chinese when necessary).

After the e-mail two weeks ago, I wrote back to complain about the “2214” error that occurs when foreigners attempt to link a Richart account to stuff like JKOPay and Easy Wallet, naively hoping they’d be fixing whatever is causing that.

Nope. What they’re going to do is make an exception for me, manually bind my Richart account to JKOPay within the next several days, and then give me 3% cashback for JKOPay purchases, along with a NT$300 FamilyMart voucher (I don’t really care about that, but I couldn’t be bothered fighting it if they really want to give it to me). The promotion I was complaining about will continue to be inaccessible to other foreigners, and other foreigners won’t be able to link their Richart accounts to JKOPay etc.

I made it clear in both my e-mail two weeks ago and the phone call today that, while I appreciate they’re now making some kind of effort, I don’t consider any of this a satisfactory solution and the reason I complained is that I think they should be fixing this for all of the foreigners living here, rather than implementing a workaround for the one or two foreigners who complain, if they complain. I asked about their timeline for fixing the above issues and providing a more inclusive service, and the answer was rather vague – along the lines of “maybe in 2024”.

On the one hand, it’s kind of amazing the lengths they’re apparently willing to go to to avoid fixing the underlying problems. I get the impression they’ve spent quite a bit of time implementing this workaround just to shut me – a single customer – up.

On the other hand, I find it quite disappointing, as usual, how few foreigners living here can be bothered complaining and just meekly accept this stuff. I did what I could here to encourage others to complain by posting the details across various Facebook groups, in the hope that multiple complaints at the same time, to Richart/Taishin/JKO, the FSC, and the MOI, would encourage them to actually fix the problem. A couple of people commented and indicated they’d complain, but as far as I know the only one who actually did was @comfy123 (and IIRC he was offered a different solution instead, in the form of a credit card with similar cashback). So I guess it was easier for the banks just to try and placate us rather than dealing with the underlying problems.

Anyway, I think I’m done with actively pursuing this particular case for the time being. Like I said above, I’ve made it clear I don’t consider the proposed solution really acceptable. I’ve yet to hear back from the FSC itself, if I ever will, and my MOI complaint is still being processed, so I’ll wait and see if anything comes back from those, but I’m not exactly optimistic. :man_shrugging:

982

Well take my advice, get on with your own stuff as I did in the 1990’s. I was told many things that were untrue, like cannot give you a loan as foreigners cannot own property in Taiwan, then when I show them that is wrong well we never lent to a foreigner before so we not sure we can do that. Same with my 1996 car loan, well we don’t do that for foreigners. So I say to dealer, great as soon as my current Audi is finished being serviced I am going to the bank to withdraw the cash for the car. Great replied the the sale manager. I then said sure and I will go to the BMW dealer next door and buy one of their cars.
I said this so loud other people in the showroom could hear it. OK please sir let me call the finance company again. Loan magically approved lol

Of course the only people who told me I could apply to naturalize were people in the MOI Office in Taichung doing that work. They were like it’s 1997 everyone wants to leave and get another country citizenship and you want to do the opposite? Are you feeling alright sir? lol Everyone else was telling me no non Chinese person would ever get citizenship here.

I gave up caring what other foreigners could or could not do unless they personally contacted me for help. Comfy and I tell a lot of people on FB groups how to complain, they say they don’t have the time, yet make multiple posts over a few days in different FB groups expecting a different answer lol.

All these people that continually ask yet do nothing… well… member llary made posts here in 2006 on how to get mortgage loans credit cards business loans as a foreigner with no local spouse… some people followed his advice and got loans etc some just went well this is too hard for me lol

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983

Sometimes you should take these small wins and brag about them. For example, if you say. “I spent 5 minutes complaining, here is my template, here they gave me this for free.” I bet many would do it and take the small win for the voucher.

Again mate. I am not telling you to be selfish but I suggest you sometimes take that kind of thing as a win. These “other foreigners” don’t care about you… they will happily put it under their wife’s name and get the same benefits…

Don’t feel down… You have already got a victory. Take it!

I didn’t mention it but they offered to manually link mine too. However, I don’t really care about it as I will be using Taishin pay, PX pay etc… to get the 3.8% cashback. Also I am happy with the $330,000NTD limit they gave me.

My honest suggestion? Leave it mate and accept your small victory. Otherwise you will become a sour grape.

To be honest I get the feeling that Taishin has actually been trying really hard to improve recently.

@anon24369109 got a follow up call asking how he was.

I got a follow up call yesterday asking how my experience was at the branch and if I am happy with the card.

I don’t think they will agree with it being discriminatory as Taishin has already offered to manually bind your account. Also IMO they DO have a reason for all this… the Taiwan government has been negligent in its setting up online identity systems for foreigners. So the problem really lies with them… @au

984

Please help.

985

I finally got the expected bullshit response from the FSC:

Thank you for your letters dated November 4, 2023 and October 10, 2023. Regarding to your recommendation about JKOPay x Richart Collaboration service, it falls within the autonomy of banks to handle their business operations and practical procedures. Therefore, each bank independently considers its operational costs, evaluates benefits, and devises strategies concerning target customers. Regarding the issues raised in your letters, we have forwarded your concerns to Taishin International Bank. According to the responses from Taishin International Bank on October 30, 2023, and November 15, 2023, the bank has collaborated with JKO to create a new program for foreign customers sharing the same preferential rebate program as that offered by the JKO and Richart collaboration campaign. If you have any further queries or require additional assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely,
Banking Bureau
Financial Supervisory Commission

So it only took them 2+ months to decide that discrimination is fine and it’s not their job to enforce banking-related regulations. :roll:

986

So what next?

987

Enjoying the last week of my holiday in Thailand then ChatGPTing an administrative appeal when I’m back, I suppose…

988

Enjoy your vacation the. I’m off to Bali next month for some R&R and diving.

989

I think the final step will need to be taking them to court as I suspect the admin appeal like most others will side with discrimination as usual. Wonder if we could crowdfund a civil case, especially as it relates to bank discrimination. I’d be down financially as I’m out of Taiwan currently.

990

I’m a cheap fuck, so I’m trying everything possible without a fee, but, this might be. A kinda class action

991

Seconded. Maybe we could get together and put the legal fees on some Richart credit cards? :sweat_smile:

992

I totally disagree with this kind of sentiment. If you, as a society, want to invite foreign professionals to come work in your country, then you need to be prepared to support their integration.

IDGAF if restaurants and bars can speak English, this is Taiwan, learn some Chinese. But essential services as like banking, telecoms, utilities, definitely must to be able to provide service in a widely spoken international language like English.

You can’t possibly expect foreign professionals to “just speak Chinese” in the first months they arrive when they need to set all this shit up. It might take them years to reach the level of fluency where they can have those conversations in Chinese. But in the mean time don’t you want them living here and being a productive addition to Taiwanese society?

Provide the “essential” services in English, and provide lots of free support for learning Chinese.

993

I’m wondering - have there been any examples where the FSC itself has done anything at all to resolve complaints made by foreigners? I mean directly. I realize a few of us have had the situations resolved by banks themselves after filing complaints, like with credit card guarantors, but it seems like in most (all?) cases this has relied on the bank choosing to fix the problem rather than being made to by the FSC? If a bank chooses not to, has the FSC ever made them? I kind of get the impression the FSC is acting more like a mail-forwarding service than as a regulator, at least when it comes to complaints made by foreigners.

How is it with Taiwanese citizens - is it the same, or are they more proactive in fixing things? One of my Taiwanese friends said she thought the FSC was really good at dealing with complaints, but that doesn’t really match my own experience and what I’ve read here. :thinking:

994

From my experiences with them, they are pretty much a mail forwarding service. I had a bank last year try to non renew my perfect payment 10 year account because foreigner, and the FSC would pretty much just keep forwarding my emails. The lady said, oh we can’t make them renew it but we can keep forwarding your requests to upper management. Management at the bank actually dug in so it took a few weeks of emails before I finally ‘won’ the argument only because of wearing them down as they are required to formally reply to each request, but not actually forced to do anything . Nor did the FSC weigh in either.

995

I concur with @Niurou . They r just a pass through, they don’t care tbh nor want to get their hands dirty as they keep reiterating this BS “it’s a commercial decision of the bank itself”.

The FOI tries a bit harder, probably they also do something within their jurisdiction, but are limited in scope.

Have no clue with citizens’ complaints, maybe they would give it some more weight, but won’t bet on it. @anon24369109 how’s going your affair with DBS?

996

Well got the apology after the FSC complaint that didn’t sound genuine at all. You know complicated the bank staff are when dealing with foreigners with ID cards routine. Got a call from the Chiayi branch asking ? Do you have a Taiwan ID? lol as if they didn’t know already. 2. Which country were you born in? So now they want to know? lol

Are you tax resident in Australia? No I replied and I am not tax resident in other countries where I have accounts in different names and nationalities.

So yes now I can have that investment account with 5.88 percent. lol I want that Kimmy sales staff to help me with the forms though. I want to ask him can he reconcile with telling me under Singapore and Taiwan law people with multiple nationality can’t open accounts with DBS. Or that he told me he didn’t want me to open an account with DBS and to go to a local bank. I will tell him DBS just became my local Chiayi bank lol.

997

I went to the post office today to collect the MOI’s response to the discrimination complaint against Richart/Taishin/JKO that I filed in October.

They upheld my complaint, saying that discrimination against foreigners residing here is completely unacceptable and that they’ve instructed Richart/Taishin/JKO to include foreigners in the current promotion and any future promotions by whatever means necessary.

Only joking!! It was more of the same meaningless excuses.

OCR’d, machine-translated, and slightly edited version of the main part follows:

(2) On November 24, 2023, the Ministry convened the 30th Meeting of the Review Group for Discrimination Complaints of Residents Living in Taiwan. The case filed by the complainant against Taishin International Bank and Jiekou Electronic Payment Co. Ltd. was thoroughly discussed by the attending committee members. The committee reached a decision that the complaint is not substantiated, with the following reasons:

(a) Taishin Bank only partially opens its digital banking services to residents in Taiwan due to restricted capacity and other factors, but it does not refuse to provide services.

(b) The preferential schemes introduced by Taishin Bank in collaboration with JKOPay are considered business practices and promotional activities. These are justified by commercial considerations, and the principle of contractual freedom makes it difficult to argue that Taishin Bank and JKOPay engaged in discriminatory behavior that violated the rights of residents in Taiwan. Similar benefits are also extended to both Taiwanese and foreign nationals as part of certain promotional activities.

(3) If the complainant disagrees with this decision, they may file an appeal within 30 days from the date of receipt of this decision. The appeal should be submitted to the Ministry of the Interior, and the Ministry will forward it to the Executive Yuan for further review.

They also spelled my name wrong. :roll:

So it looks like I need to add another appeal to my to-do list. :unamused:

998

This really does sound poorly reasoned.

Access to banking services is much like access to a utility. Exactly why do they not have ‘capacity’?

The Immigration Act prohibits discrimination flatly. How can commercial considerations justify this differential treatment of a group of taxpayers based on place of birth/nationality. Freedom of contract is not a license to discriminate. What if they denied these preferential schemes to indigenous Taiwanese? Would their freedom of contract and commercial considerations justify differently treating this class of residents? I think not.

I would also demand to know precisely what the ‘similar benefits’ are so that we can see whether they are in fact comparable. A government information request might be useful for this purpose.

The online banks are reportedly all losing money though…

999

Yes, totally agree. This is exactly the same point I’m intending to try and make when I appeal to the FSC and MOI - would they consider it acceptable if banks etc. chose to restrict services to women, gay people, indigenous Taiwanese? It’s just a commercial decision, right?

I wondered about this too. Because foreigners are allowed to participate in some promotional activities, it’s okay if they’re not included in others?

What do you mean by this? Like asking for the details of what was discussed? How would one go about making such a request?

1000

See this. There might also be remedies available under the Administrative Procedure Act to get information.

The Freedom of Government Information Law - Article Content - Laws & Regulations Database of The Republic of China (Taiwan).