Dude,
I can see the angle, but this is the second or third time round the block for it.
That’s because they are uneducated, ignorant or stupid.
Given the scientific evidence that animals such as bulls and dogs experience pain at least as we humans do, if not even more acutely, and the fact that there is no evidence to support any belief that bulls and dogs experience pain to a lesser degree than we humans do, then how does a reasonably intelligent person support a belief that a bull in an arena that is being cut and sliced and stabbed is not being tortured?[/quote]
Well, the question would be, to this reasonable person, How do you continue to justify the sport knowing that the animal is clearly not enjoying it? How do you accept it?
[quote=“Truant”]Dude,
I can see the angle, but this is the second or third time round the block for it.[/quote]
Ah, I’m late in the game.
I’m saying they’re heartless fucking bastards is what I’m saying. I don’t give a rat’s arse whether they’re socially advanced or not.
A Buddhist in the wilds of Laos could probably be considered “socially backward” if you want to look at it that way. I have no problem with the way he or she treats life.
Your Prada-wearing Madrid businessman with his Rolex and Mercedes and his holiday place in the Pyrenees who watches bullfights, on the other hand, is another kettle of fish. Socially backward? Too right! With fucking BELLS on – he’s a fucking neanderthal.
I’m saying they’re heartless fucking bastards is what I’m saying. I don’t give a rat’s arse whether they’re socially advanced or not.
A Buddhist in the wilds of Laos could probably be considered “socially backward” if you want to look at it that way. I have no problem with the way he or she treats life.
Your Prada-wearing Madrid businessman with his Rolex and Mercedes and his holiday place in the Pyrenees who watches bullfights, on the other hand, is another kettle of fish. Socially backward? Too right! With fucking BELLS on – he’s a fucking neanderthal.[/quote]
How do you think he feels about how you feel about him? 
okok…that’s a joke.
The New world order is a culture fuck. PS2 for everyone!!!
peace
jdsideswiththebull
This reasonable person neither justifies the “sport” nor accepts it. I do not believe that a reasonable person can justify or accept it.
And I ask Traveller this:
Given that you believe that a bull does not experience pain in the same or similar manner that you do, would you be willing to kill a bull for the fun of it, in a ritualistic slow manner?
If no, why not?
This reasonable person neither justifies the “sport” nor accepts it. I do not believe that a reasonable person can justify or accept it.
[/quote]
So, you believe in social and moral and humane archetypes in humanity, that ALL people share on some level or another, just more pronounced in some peoples and cultures?
Sounds like Joseph Campbell to me…and that’s cool. 
[quote=“jdsmith”]So, you believe in social and moral and humane archetypes in humanity, that ALL people share on some level or another, just more pronounced in some peoples and cultures?
Sounds like Joseph Campbell to me…and that’s cool. [/quote]
I dunno.
I believe that inflicting pain and harm on other living sentient beings is cruel.
Don’t take no Joseph Campbell to figure that much.
To expand on that… I believe that when a lion takes down a zebra, and starts to eat the zebra alive… this is cruel.
Doesn’t matter that the act is necessary for the lion’s survival. The act is still cruel. Nature is cruel.
Its bad enough that cruelty exists where necessary… how much worse is it that cruelty exists where it is not necessary?
common sense never hurt no one.
As you can see, many people here consider bullfighting a barbaric sport too. Of course they are not the same, but they are both blood sports. You attacked stray dog earlier, saying that if he thinks bullfighting is cruel and barbaric, he should object to all sports which involve animals, such as fishing, hunting, etc. Yet here you are in exactly the same position - bull-fighting is ok, but dog-fighting isn’t.
Like dog-fighting, an animal is subjected to blood, gore, pain (i guess you still don’t believe that, but anyway) and ultimately, a slow death. Unlike dog-fighting, the blood and gore is being dished out by people, who in addition to being (supposedly) more intelligent than the bull, also happen to outnumber the animal, are armed, are not pre-weakened and disoriented, and are well-trained in the art of killing, unlike the bull who has never been in a fight against an armed man, surrounded by a cheering crowd. Hardly a test of skill for the matador. But anyway, that’s not your point, and I digress - I just fail to see how you can justify dog fighting as barbaric, but NOT bullfighting.
[quote]
2) I cannot, as I have no scientific proof of how either dogs or bulls experience pain, you forget, I was looking for the scientific proof earlier, at least in regard to the bulls. [/quote]
So if that’s your answer, you have no right to criticise the people who DO believe that animals feel pain. You have no scientific proof to back up your claim that they don’t feel pain like we do.
[quote]
I do not put all animals into one category for determining their rights as so to speak, but into several, and as far as I am concerned that determines what is or is not acceptable.
I have no problem with a bovine being treated quite differently to a dog.[/quote]
So, what’s the basis for this judgement?
I didn’t say you were insincere, but yes, that’s fine. [/i]
Oops, late post - wrote it before work and just posted it now
In reply to Traveller’s later points:
dude - loads of people are very strongly opposed to commercial farming of any animals, be they cows, sheep, chickens, or whatever. Never heard of a vegan? There are many organisations dedicated to trying to stop these practices. So don’t say that nobody does anything about it.
I guess, as someone said, bullfighting is a far easier target for the man in the street because meat-eating is part of a global culture, people NEED to eat. But people DON’T need bullfighting to entertain themselves.
I don’t eat meat, by the way.
With regards to the “don’t impose your standards on another culture” argument, what are people’s veiwpoints on Shariah(sp?) Law? Is it a good thing? Should women be kept as possessions, be forced to remain uneducated, be stoned in the street for so much as speaking to a man who is not her husband? Oops, can’t make any judgement or comment on that because it’s not my culture, oh no, i definitely can’t impose my own standards onto it. 
Is something done against bullfighting ?
I m glad to report that things are moving in South of France; the season of bullfighting or corridas will start soon but as part of an association fighting against it, I can tell you that a few southern french cities have given up organizing bullfighting.
The biggest one though, Arles, is still on. But we are working on this. The pros (mainly the tourism industry) don t want to lose visitors, tourists. Money, money, money…
There are fierce battles between the pros and the cons. But people minds are changing, thanks to more and more advertisement showing horrible pictures
I can assure you that this cause gain more and more support and one day we will end this cruelty.
[quote=“Tigerman”]
Its bad enough that cruelty exists where necessary… how much worse is it that cruelty exists where it is not necessary?[/quote]Excellent posts you have in this thread Tigerman.
How about some hands on experience here? Loretta’s last convenient appearance in this thread made some irrelevant but interesting points about emotional state in relation to pain. Here’s my reply to that.
After work tonight I visited a stray that just had her pregnancy terminated. On the way home, I saw a dog in the distance. It was laying on its side in the middle of the road. Cars were driving around her and so were scooters all of them barely glanced at the poor thing.
That was on Tzyou Rd near the Dajong freeway. As I got closer, It was obvious that the young pup was still alive. Looked like a Golden Retriever about 3 months old. Her head was sitting in a large puddle of thick blood and I could see her body movement from heavy and erratic breathing but she wasn’t moving. She was coughing blood and she was also bleeding from one ear but she had no other obvious injuries. I tried to stop 3 taxis…I was blocking the traffic with my scooter and I felt helpless for a minute… I started my bike, put her on my lap holding her as best as I could and I rode with one hand back to the vet I had just come back from. There was blood everywhere, I felt sick.
She died two hours later from severe internal bleeding. I’m naming her Bumper.
Did she suffer from this? To tell you the truth it’s hard to tell how much because I picked her up and carried her on my scooter and she never squealed once. She never even made a grimace suggesting that she had any pain. I put her down on the floor at the vet and she did not move. Her eyes told a different story though… Her eyes were saying “I want to live.” Her eyes were screaming that and every gentle stroke was her hope in a way that is hard to describe and far from empirical it is but by God I swear that dog wanted to live.
Quite controversial isn’t it? I’m moved by a dog that died in front of me on the same day that I ordered to end the lives of seven soon to be puppies.
Now where am I getting with this? I wanted to share my evening with you guys and I’d like to point out something. That is many of the people who posted in this thread, as they were expected to do so by the OP, are people who care deeply about the wealth of animals. You’d be surpised how many are actively involved in helping animals in one way or another. I do care. I can’t see myself driving past that pooch tonight. But putting her in that position with a purpose of entertainment is not conceivable…But that’s not my point. My point is that the OP as well as traveller are very well aware that some of us are sensible on this subject and that we spend time and money trying to reduce the amount of suffering animals endure.
This said, after and evening such as the one I have just had, I surely do not appreciate Loretta saying things like “What’s wrong with being a barbarian, that’s what we are, why not celebrate it.” And now 4 pages of traveller arguing the level of pain animals may or may not feel in a thread that is supposedly started about bullfights and how cruel it is. The renamed thread does not render justice to the arrogant few who changed the conversation to “Pain and Animals” in order to argue that bullfights may or may not be cruel.
If you really need to get down to questioning either a bull feels more or less pain than another mammal in order to determine either bullfighting is cruel or not then I’d say you’re either trolling or you’ve got some serious thinking to do.
Have a good weekend everyone.
bobepine
It’s hard to imagine what you went through today, Bobepine - thanks so much for making such an effort to help that pup live.
SHARLEE, what do you think about having bullfights where the matador has to merely place a sticker or some paint or something between the shoulders of the bull? As an alternative to the more barabaric style, I believe it is still cruel but far more acceptable - kind of like how in England now the ‘hunts’ still go on, but for scents laid down by runners rather than with a fox as the quarry.
I’m interested to know what you think of this, as it keeps the ‘culture’ of bullfighting alive, but takes away most of the cruelty to the non-human animal. I guess they could stick large corks on the horns, too, just to keep it fair. 
Dude… Fk professional sportsmen. Fk Hollywood stars. Fk hip hop gangstaz. Fk rock stars. Fk pop singers. These people do nothing more than they are payed to do, and payed far more money than most of us will earn in a lifetime, at that, yet every day the media lauds them as the heroes of our time. Fk that shit. YOU are a TRUE hero.
:bravo:
[quote=“trapjaw”]Dude… Fk professional sportsmen. Fk Hollywood stars. Fk hip hop gangstaz. Fk rock stars. Fk pop singers. These people do nothing more than they are payed to do, and payed far more money than most of us will earn in a lifetime, at that, yet every day the media lauds them as the heroes of our time. Fk that shit. YOU are a TRUE hero.
:bravo:[/quote]
Hear, hear.
It is threads like this which really make me hope there’s karma and reincarnation in this world. What comes around goes around, and not in a mean, vindinctive way.
[quote=“bobepine”]The renamed thread does not render justice to the arrogant few who changed the conversation to “Pain and Animals” in order to argue that bullfights may or may not be cruel.
If you really need to get down to questioning either a bull feels more or less pain than another mammal in order to determine either bullfighting is cruel or not then I’d say you’re either trolling or you’ve got some serious thinking to do.[/quote]
FYI, I had this section of the bullfighting thread split from the thread in temp and sent back to Pets and Animals in it’s current form. I think that some of the posts in this thread are so well thought out that they deserve a permanent home here. Browsing through here, we can see links to academics, references to Peter Singer (someone I haven’t heard of since the college days) and moving personal anectdotes. It all may have been a wind-up or it may not have been, but Traveller in his devil’s advocate position provoked some truly fine responses.
Myself, it is obvious animals feel pain. Even in the survey courses in Biology and Psychology I took as breadth courses for my undergrad degree, it was presented as empirical fact that high order mammals (among them dogs, cats, certainly cows and pigs) have the capacity for pain and even emotion. We’ve been able to establish this by locating centers in our own brain and central nervous system which are responsible for phenomena such as pain or emotions and seeing which other species also possess these structures. Think your dog misses you when you aren’t around? He does. Does your cat love you? Yes. Does a cow feel pain? Without a doubt, yes. Now, I’m not going to post links for this stuff. I can’t post links to professors or courses I took. The best research may not be available online, at any rate. I suggest that anyone who is truly interested make the effort to educate themselves. One thing I learned, though, is that it is extraordinarily difficult to counter facts based on empirical evidence with arguments based on opinions and conjecture. With that, I think this discussion has run its course, so I’m going to close it. I leave this with a pic of my dogs (black one and Pomeranian) playing with a friend’s dog at Yongan beach in Taoyuan county. Cheers.
