Are you purposely dodging my question, or do you not understand my question?
I have acknowledged that we cannot presently prove to what extent animals feel and experience pain in comparison to the way humans do.
I have, however, cited the scientific evidence that supports the belief that bulls and dogs do at least experience pain in the same way that we humans do, if not more acutely.
I then asked you on what scientific evidence you base your belief that bulls and dogs suffer pain to a lesser degree than do we humans.
Care to try again?
I haven’t made any argument regarding those points.
[quote=“Traveller”]Taking your logic further, if all animals are the same, why do we allow battery farming of hens etc, why is it ok for you to have and allow differing standards for differing animals, but not for others just because their standards are maybe a little different from yours.
Please explain.[/quote]
I have nothing to explain.
You are not at all citing my logic.
But to answer your question, I suppose it is because many people share your belief:
Traveller (or devil’s advocate or whatever - [that’s what I’d say if I were losing an argument - brilliant!]), can you explain to us, in empirical terms, just how you go about categorising each animal.
And do you have a filing system, or perhaps a graph or chart on the wall we could all see?
[quote=“Traveller”]If as you seem to believe that bovines should be treated at least in the same manner as dogs, if not humans, why do we allow branding, insertion of nose rings. Why are bovines allowed to be cut up and served as food, whilst dogs and humans are not (leaving aside China on dogs). Why is it that bovines can be minced down virtually into dust but this is not acceptable for dogs and other animals.
Taking your logic further, if all animals are the same, why do we allow battery farming of hens etc, why is it ok for you to have and allow differing standards for differing animals, but not for others just because their standards are maybe a little different from yours.[/quote]
I notice this a lot in the forums - when posters have absolutely no response to an argument that won’t make their previous posts look foolish, they start making up stuff that they can respond to - stuff that has nothing to do with the other posters’ arguments and which may actually earn them some form of agreement … which the first poster takes as a point to himself to lessen his feeling of complete loss.
For the record, I believe that inhumane practices are wrong regardless of who they are carried out on. Shall we move on?
So now we have Traveller feeling that it’s OK to torture bulls because “matadors” are skilful. It’s also OK because, HEY! People do nasty shit to battery hens.
No, man. It’s not OK. In either case. But to my knowledge, unlike bull-torture, they don’t raise battery hens “for fun.”
If there was a distinction to be made, I think that might be it.
Animal torture for entertainment is fucked up, no matter what level of pain the animal feels. It’s exactly THAT simple. If you disagree, I presume you therefore have no problem with a kid pulling the wings off a fly purely for fun, either?
[quote=“Stray Dog”][quote=“Traveller”]If as you seem to believe that bovines should be treated at least in the same manner as dogs, if not humans, why do we allow branding, insertion of nose rings. Why are bovines allowed to be cut up and served as food, whilst dogs and humans are not (leaving aside China on dogs). Why is it that bovines can be minced down virtually into dust but this is not acceptable for dogs and other animals.
Taking your logic further, if all animals are the same, why do we allow battery farming of hens etc, why is it ok for you to have and allow differing standards for differing animals, but not for others just because their standards are maybe a little different from yours.[/quote]
I notice this a lot in the forums - when posters have absolutely no response to an argument that won’t make their previous posts look foolish, they start making up stuff that they can respond to - stuff that has nothing to do with the other posters’ arguments and which may actually earn them some form of agreement … which the first poster takes as a point to himself to lessen his feeling of complete loss. [/quote]
Sorry, SD, totally off the mark. Just trying to point out some of ther double standards being allowed.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]For the record, I believe that inhumane practices are wrong regardless of who they are carried out on. Shall we move on?
Bizarre arguments coming from my learned friend!
[/quote]
SD, out of interest, for the two sections you copied what would you regard as inhumane, if the answer to any of them is yes, why is something not being done to stop them.
[quote=“sandman”]So now we have Traveller feeling that it’s OK to torture bulls because “matadors” are skilful. It’s also OK because, HEY! People do nasty shit to battery hens.
No, man. It’s not OK. In either case. But to my knowledge, unlike bull-torture, they don’t raise battery hens “for fun.”
If there was a distinction to be made, I think that might be it.
Animal torture for entertainment is fucked up, no matter what level of pain the animal feels. It’s exactly THAT simple. If you disagree, I presume you therefore have no problem with a kid pulling the wings off a fly purely for fun, either?[/quote]
Sandman, where have i said i am in favour of bull fighting. Just because i raise a question or a issue that can be seen as against the animal lovers does not mean that i approve of the basic subject of the thread.
Why should “because it is not for fun” actually make any difference, why should any distinction at all be made, why the double standard.
Why indeed? That’s why I wrote if there’s a distinction to be made. I’m not sure there is, which is why I won’t eat meat or eggs that are battery farmed.
Although I’m having a little trouble with the fact that you seem unable or unwilling to draw the distinction between inhumane farming methods and torture for entertainment.
Why indeed? That’s why I wrote if there’s a distinction to be made. I’m not sure there is, which is why I won’t eat meat or eggs that are battery farmed.
Although I’m having a little trouble with the fact that you seem unable or unwilling to draw the distinction between inhumane farming methods and torture for entertainment.[/quote]
I have no problem making the distinction. Both are being done for the needs of human, whether that need be entertainment or food.
Why indeed? That’s why I wrote if there’s a distinction to be made. I’m not sure there is, which is why I won’t eat meat or eggs that are battery farmed.
Although I’m having a little trouble with the fact that you seem unable or unwilling to draw the distinction between inhumane farming methods and torture for entertainment.[/quote]
I have no problem making the distinction. Both are being done for the needs of human, whether that need be entertainment or food.[/quote]
which supercede the needs of the animal?
That’s a very interesting point. Not nice ro humane, but interesting.
Why indeed? That’s why I wrote if there’s a distinction to be made. I’m not sure there is, which is why I won’t eat meat or eggs that are battery farmed.
Although I’m having a little trouble with the fact that you seem unable or unwilling to draw the distinction between inhumane farming methods and torture for entertainment.[/quote]
I have no problem making the distinction. Both are being done for the needs of human, whether that need be entertainment or food.[/quote]
Jesus H. Christ. Humans NEED to eat. They don’t NEED to watch an animal being tortured.
Why indeed? That’s why I wrote if there’s a distinction to be made. I’m not sure there is, which is why I won’t eat meat or eggs that are battery farmed.
Although I’m having a little trouble with the fact that you seem unable or unwilling to draw the distinction between inhumane farming methods and torture for entertainment.[/quote]
I have no problem making the distinction. Both are being done for the needs of human, whether that need be entertainment or food.[/quote]
Jesus H. Christ. Humans NEED to eat. They don’t NEED to watch an animal being tortured.[/quote]
Well, again, I think the point is that the people watching do not feel the animal is being tortured. You do (and so I for that matter). Whether or not people have a psychological need that is sated by watching bullfighting is a different question.
[quote=“jdsmith”]Well, again, I think the point is that the people watching do not feel the animal is being tortured. You do (and so I for that matter). Whether or not people have a psychological need that is sated by watching bullfighting is a different question.
It’s an interesting thesis.[/quote]
well, why do we put rapists and murderers in Jail then? Surely they often don’t feel they are doing evil.
Should we just feel sorry for them and give them a little cuddle and stroke on the cheek and say “there, there…it’s ok”
I mean geeeeeeeeeeeeeez you could use that argument to justify anything.
That’s because they are uneducated, ignorant or stupid.
Given the scientific evidence that animals such as bulls and dogs experience pain at least as we humans do, if not even more acutely, and the fact that there is no evidence to support any belief that bulls and dogs experience pain to a lesser degree than we humans do, then how does a reasonably intelligent person support a belief that a bull in an arena that is being cut and sliced and stabbed is not being tortured?
[quote=“Truant”][quote=“jdsmith”]Well, again, I think the point is that the people watching do not feel the animal is being tortured. You do (and so I for that matter). Whether or not people have a psychological need that is sated by watching bullfighting is a different question.
It’s an interesting thesis.[/quote]
well, why do we put rapists and murderers in Jail then? Surely they often don’t feel they are doing evil.
Should we just feel sorry for them and give them a little cuddle and stroke on the cheek and say “there, there…it’s ok”
I mean geeeeeeeeeeeeeez you could use that argument to justify anything.
It still a crock…and going downhill fast[/quote]
Well, the difference is animals. The difference is culture. The difference is whipping your (our) beliefs unto another by saying they are wrong to do this.
In no way am I justifying bullfighting. I’m more curious about the argument its proponents use.
Are we saying “they” are less socially advanced because of this?
I hope you see that my interest lies here, not in the act of bullfighting.
