Parents' reinforcement of negative behaviour

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

[quote=“hiker”]Have asked my taiwanese family a lot of times, the word “waiguoren” has no bad connotation for them.

It is our stupid and racist culture where that word implies an insult.[/quote]

‘Our’ culture? You’re from the north of England too? Whereabouts?

It’s the age old thing. Does the other person’s intention carry more weight than the effect the words have? Generally I’d say not, but in the case of a preschool child whose intentions don’t really extend beyond getting affection and physical care from parents, it’s kind of silly. Adults should be aware that they are social beings and conduct themselves with a bit of tact and awareness of others’ differences, on occasion. Offending people because you don’t know any better is not going to get you far in life, is it?

22

[quote=“hiker”]Have asked my taiwanese family a lot of times, the word “waiguoren” has no bad connotation for them.

It is our stupid and racist culture where that word implies an insult.[/quote]

It is not an insult as it is a statement of fact. We foreigners use it, or its translations, ourselves, when we are distinguishing ourselves from the local community where we live in. But the point is, it’s uncomfortable to be made vocally aware, in a public setting, of the fact that you are different. I.e it’s not the word, it’s how you use it.

As an aside, I have heard stories of Chinese people living abroad calling the local people there “waiguoren” !! Say a lot for the Han Chinese attitude towards non-Han Chinese, wherever in the world they may be living.

23

Sorry Buttercup, don’t want to insult you, but i am German. But when is something common between all European states and other so called Western states than a deep racism. Some countries more and some less.

24

So we don’t share the same culture then? I know you are German speaker, I’m a former English teacher - I can pick out someone’s first language from their English usage. I was being facetious.

Your view is not polite or correct. I am not ‘deeply racist’.

I’m not even sure what your point is. We can’t just say stuff that annoys and offends other people all the time with the justification that we don’t mean anything.

25

Really, what is not polite? I didn’t exclude my country.

I mean, the word “foreigner” in it’s orgin is neutral. If somebody call you foreigner than it can’t be an insult or rude. Only the following meaning can make that neutral word to an insult. For instance: When you call me a German, it is only a declarative statement. Maybe in some regions in GB and some newspaper, people connect Germany with Hitler, than it is an insult.

The point is: In our free western, equal culture, we connect foreigners with criminals, beggar etc. Only with this connotation, the word “foreigner” is an insult.

26

and please different, i said “our culture” is racist, not you!

27

I disagree.

Why bring the ‘foreigner’ aspect into it at all?

This is rude. Same as if we say ‘fat’ or ‘skinny’ or ‘old’ etc…

Why not simply relate to PEOPLE, not to foreigners, or fat, or skinny, or old, or young, people?

28

[quote=“pgdaddy”]

As an aside, I have heard stories of Chinese people living abroad calling the local people there “waiguoren” !! Say a lot for the Han Chinese attitude towards non-Han Chinese, wherever in the world they may be living.[/quote]

The attidute of Taiwanese against Thai, Vietnamese is not the best one, too.

29

It’s true that many in Western European states are racist to different levels, although it’s usually in the form of complaints made discreetly (for instance, Italians complaining to each other about the local Albanians).

But you have a point of course, the racism for instance in your country, Germany can be much more frightening and confrontational, such as Neo-Nazi attacks in German towns. And as a Jew, I am particularly sensitive to that.

And look at the situation in Moscow, where African students are now scared to leave their dorms for fear of attack.

So I take your point, the use of the word “waiguoren” here is never, or extremely rarely, going to be a prelude to any kind of aggression. It’s just an annoyance, but one that is worth discussing anyway. And of course, this kind of behaviour towards foreigners is very common and accepted here- whereas the great majority of Germans are very intolerant of any kind of racist behaviour and feel a deep responsibility for the past.

30

You overreacted, if you ask me. Read any guidebook about Taiwan and you’ll be told that Taiwanese, young or old, tend to ask questions that we, in our own cultures wouldn’t.

When I get the ‘waiguoren!’ comments, I pretend to look around, and I ask where the waiguoren is, or just smile and tell them that I’m not a foreigner, I’m Taiwanese. They don’t mean to offend; you chose to be offended. Where I come from, five-year-olds call out much nastier stuff at times.

Now, if that child had implied that you were Scottish–well, then you’d have a case. :whistle:

31

[quote=“hiker”]Really, what is not polite? I didn’t exclude my country.

I mean, the word “foreigner” in it’s orgin is neutral. If somebody call you foreigner than it can’t be an insult or rude. Only the following meaning can make that neutral word to an insult. For instance: When you call me a German, it is only a declarative statement. Maybe in some regions in GB and some newspaper, people connect Germany with Hitler, than it is an insult.

The point is: In our free western, equal culture, we connect foreigners with criminals, beggar etc. Only with this connotation, the word “foreigner” is an insult.[/quote]

I think you are misunderstanding things. What do you mean by ‘our culture’? We don’t share a culture. If you meant ‘my culture’, that’s fine, if the’re fine with you speaking for them and about them!

Would you not think it were odd if someone pointed at you on the London Underground and shouted ‘German!’? OK, so it’s not entirely analogous, but … no? Even with no hint of a threat, wouldn’t you find it unnerving occasionally?

i understand your viewpoint, - believe it or not, this topic comes up every six months or so on forumosa - but I really disagree with some of the things you have written.

32

[quote="pgdaddyAnd of course, this kind of behaviour towards foreigners is very common and accepted here- whereas the great majority of Germans are very intolerant of any kind of racist behaviour and feel a deep responsibility for the past.[/quote]

pgdaddy, thanks! I am sometimes tired of pointing out that even Germany/Germans can change, and Gemrnay did it.

33

pgdaddy, thanks! I am sometimes tired of pointing out that even Germany/Germans can change, and Gemrnay did it.[/quote]

No worries.

From travelling Europe and studying in Spain and Italy, and getting to know Erasmus students there, I could see that the young Germans were liberal, conscious of their history, open and relaxed. If you go to Mallorca you might get a bad impression of the Germans, but in any case not as bad as us British !!

34

There’s nothing really rude or racist about “waiguoren” per se, but that’s not the point. What is rude is pointing at someone, and calling just about any label at them.

Of course, kids are kids, Taiwanese are Taiwanese, and if this kind of thing eats at you and you can’t get over it you may not be in the right place. I rarely get it, but I live in taipei and I’m not tall and have dark hair.

[quote=“Fortigurn”]

I reflected that it was likely that mum had scolded her daughter not so much for having done something ‘rude’ which might offend a foreigner, but for doing something which civilized city people aren’t supposed to do, the sort of behaviour people only expect from common country folk who don’t know any better. I may be wrong about that, but it’s the impression I’ve received a couple of times.[/quote]

Is there much of a difference? I don’t think you could ask for much more. Saying 'sorry" for a kid is pretty useless anyway. Really, by local standards I’d be pretty stoked a parent did that much.

35

Yes. It’s the difference between being embarrassed because your child offended someone, and being embarrassed that your child sounded like a hick from the sticks. The former is concerned with the feelings of the foreigner addressed by your child, the latter is self centered, concerned entirely with your own sense of face.

Hey, it doesn’t worry me at all. I gave her a smile to show it didn’t matter.

36

It seems to me that the behavior is unsophisticated exactly because it is going to cause offense to someone. I’m not sure it would be as black and white as you’re painting it. The true motivation is somewhere between the two poles I guess. Few people want their kid to act like a rube, and most are considerate of others’ feelings to some degree.

You were there though. I can’t recall a parent having ever said anything in a similar circumstance, maybe I’m just still stunned by that in itself :slight_smile:

37

For the first time in my life I got it 2 times this week. I embarrassed one little girl and gave the other boy a ‘da ni de pigu’ mock spanking. But it wasn’t bad…well I tried to keep things in perspective. My dear daughter at the ripe age of 2 told my hubby’s boss’ husband who was visiting us that he is an old man. A very old man. A word she had never used earlier and still doesn’t. He probably reminded her of one of those old men in her story books…you know’once upon a time there was this old man…’ and she chose to speak up!

Since then, I have heard so many stories of kids embarrassing their parents by following their impulses or behaving totally out of character.
Oh and that lady with the tot at starbucks could’ve been me. :smiley: But I don’t go there.

38

Mmm, I think whether we’re talking about east or west, there are certain behaviours considered taboo by the middle class simply because they are the means of differentiating themselves from the rustics, regardless of offense.

I agree it’s a difficult call sometimes, but I think not wanting your child to act like a rube and being considerate of others are two very different issues. Like using the wrong cutlery in the west, nothing to do with offending people but everything to do with appearing civilized and sophisticated.

Really? That makes about the fourth or fifth time. I’ve had parents smile apologetically to me (or even apologize), just after (or before), they told their children not to point at the foreigner.

39

Really? That makes about the fourth or fifth time. I’ve had parents smile apologetically to me (or even apologize), just after (or before), they told their children not to point at the foreigner.[/quote]

I can’t, but I can’t even remember the last time a kid has pointed at me.

40

[quote=“pgdaddy”]Descending from another great mountain hike on the Neigoushan trail behind Lotus Hill yesterday, I arrived on the lakeside path where a lot of local families were taking their afternoon walk. I usually try to avoid bumping into these locals together, especially when there are kids around, because I know there will be some kind of embarassing situation…

On seeing me, a 5-ish year old girl pointed at me, looked at me shamelessly and shouted “waiguoren” ! The usual stuff. She asked me if I was English (great guess ! and unusual because the usual assumption is that one is a Meiguoren). I told her that this was rude behaviour, and that I was a person just like her.

When she made the comment another passer buy laughed, thinking it was obviously quite funny that a kid should say that, then started to make inanely patronising conversation with me (have you been exercising ?), maybe because they found it amusing that a foreigner should be exercising, too ! or maybe to try to save my face because they could see I was embarrassed. Who knows.

The girl’s parents were behind her, and as I passed I told them they should teach their daughter to be more polite, although it may not have come across so clearly, as my Chinese is not so fluent in such circumstances especially when I am irritated/ embarrassed. They gave me a smile but certainly didn’t look apologetic.

Kids will be kids (although one wonders who teaches them to point and should at foreigners in the first place ?), but the point is their parents should at least point out to them that this is unacceptable behaviour, as it causes embarrassment to someone else. I assume that Xifangren have face as well :bow: I have come across this kind if behaviour on several occasions now.

Nothing new in this post and it’s the kind of stuff that we Xifangren encounter every day when we are outside our Western bubbles. Anyway, it’s a shame that one should not be able to take a simple walk in the mountains without some kind of kind of social stress here.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but why is everyone on this forum so damn delicate?

A kid is a kid. Some of the American kids I see curse people out at such young ages, or are just simply too fat to go outside.

Oh well, it’s not really a big deal. Just smile at the kid and be polite. She’s only 5, and in the point of view of most Taiwanese, she did nothing wrong. You telling them that there child needs to be educated because she’s only 5 because she called you a “waiguoren”, I think that’s unreasonable.