See what a (interesting) hornets nest you have stirred up pgdaddy. Oh and welcome to the flob !
I have have a British friend who has just been awarded sole custody of his child. The mother is only allowed short times to take the child out and if not back by the time the court orders she will end up in the can.
Seems you have issues about everything. 
I know quite a few foriegners here who have been granted custody of their children here in divorce cases. You are not the first nor last who will go through situations like this.
Not so long ago I was taking a walk with my wife in Sun Yut Sen Memorial area and an elderly woman told the children she was with to make way for the foreigners… ( many assume my wife is not a local as she is not Chinese… duh! You think you have it bad :roflmao: :roflmao: )
The young kids replied … But Amah, you are a foreigner, you came from overseas from China 
Chilll out dude, you are too uptight and now go around telling off small kids just because you are having personal issues from a failed marriage. It’s not the end of the world… really it isn’t.
We all know from your other posts you only stay here for your child which is great… but I guess if you had the chance you would take your child and just leave Taiwan.
[quote=“pgdaddy”][quote=“Noel”]Let’s reverse the situation a bit. In my hometown in Canada, when I was young, there was not a single black person to be found in our town. Not one. Occasionally, a black person would visit our town either for business or to see a friend. Gotta love the Prairies.
Now let’s say that I, as a five year old pointed and started yelling at the top of my lungs, “Black man, black man. Look black man!!!” Any idea what would have happened to me? Well to say the least, I wouldn’t have been walking properly for a week or so. That would be accompanied by a tongue lashing that I would never forget, and most likely weekly reminders of why it was inappropriate (that would continue forever). The thing is, I knew it was inappropriate, and it never happened. We were taught to treat people with respect, regardless of their appearances.
If parents don’t teach our kids what is acceptable, who will?[/quote]
Exactly. We need need say no more. And it’s lame to use “culture” to excuse this kind of behaviour- unless you are being sarcastic Urodacus ?
For instance, the British have a “culture” of binge drinking and antisocial behaviour back home and in certain seaside resorts of Europe. It makes non-British people in the same place feel uncomfortable and intimidated.
Ah, bless those Brits, they don’t mean any harm. It’s just their culture ![/quote]
lol. Comparing the actions of a 5 year old Taiwanese child to a pack of drunk Brits looking for trouble in Ibiza is hardly a fair compariosn.
At least certainly not one the West comes out looking better in
lol. Comparing the actions of a 5 year old Taiwanese child to a pack of drunk Brits looking for trouble in Ibiza is hardly a fair compariosn.[/quote][/quote]
Actually it’s quite a fair anaology, most binge drunk Brits have less mental capacity than a 5 year old anyways. 
Brilliant! I hope you bought them an ice-cream!
[quote=“Satellite TV”]
Whats wrong about pointing out the bleedin OBVIOUS. You are a foreigner so what? Are you ashamed about that? Nobody has to teach the kids that you are a foreigner, you do look different after all.
Unacceptable behaviour is all yours… by accosting a small child and then telling her parents how to raise their own child tsk tsk
Yes you are right, it sure is stressful for some young kid to have a complete stranger come up and tell her off. You should stay away from kids, you no doubt have no time for them
The rude behaviour is yours, a total lack of respect for other people.[/quote]
OK, I’ll point out the bleeding OBVIOUS about you. You’re a tool. And unless you never travelled outside the Bubble, don’t tell me this kind of thing has never annoyed you before.
I certainly don’t want to go telling the kid or their parents off, it’s uncomfortable for me to do too. But if no-one tells them, they will never know. And the whole thing is about respect. I have a three year old kid, and another on the way and if they said things that made strangers uncomfortable I would sit them down and give them a talk.
The problem is other adults who chuck a hissy fit over being looked at in public. I suggest you wear a cape and a mask on your next hike. You will stand out less that way.
Compared to lots of other parts of the world, it’s not a big deal here. I don’t notice it most of the time, or at best, am vaguely aware that someone is making a comment.
Taiwan has nothing on somewhere like India where a group of 30 kids will just surround you and stare out of shear curiosity.
[quote=“pgdaddy”]OK, I’ll point out the bleeding OBVIOUS about you. You’re an tool. And unless you never travelled outside the Bubble, don’t tell me this kind of thing has never annoyed you before.
I certainly don’t want to go telling the kid or their parents off, it’s uncomfortable for me to do too. But if no-one tells them, they will never know. And the whole thing is about respect. I have a three year old kid, and another on the way and if they said things that made strangers uncomfortable I would sit them down and give them a talk.[/quote]
I’m not bothered when people call me a foreigner or if 5 year old kids point at me and call me one. Some of the adults do need a bit of lecturing though on occassions.
Your problem is you want to carry your own bubble around and isolate yourself from the place you live in. I am sure if you tried this behaviour back home you’d need to take therapy and anger management classes.
Surprised you just haven’t smacked some strangers kid yet for pointing. A wee bit testy you seem to be. All that pent up anger inside of you.
[quote=“Satellite TV”]
I’m not bothered when people call me a foreigner or if 5 year old kids point at me and call me one. Some of the adults do need a bit of lecturing though on occassions.
Your problem is you want to carry your own bubble around and isolate yourself from the place you live in. I am sure if you tried this behaviour back home you’d need to take therapy and anger management classes.
Surprised you just haven’t smacked some strangers kid yet for pointing. A wee bit testy you seem to be. All that pent up anger inside of you.[/quote]
No. I’m not a violent person, I have never been anywhere near hitting someone here. Violence solves nothing, and is completely inappropriate in this case anyway. Thanks for psychoanalysing me, however what you say is patronising and all very wrong. I have lived in several countries and have never lived the expat life because I wanted to speak the language, live with the locals and not inside the bubble. Why do you think foreigners in Taiwan feel uncomfortable outside the bubble ? Because they are made to feel that way by the locals.
I am guessing that you didn’t experience life in other countries, outside Taiwan and your home country ?
I’ll send you a PM with my story, by the way, which has it’s real place on the divorce forum.
[quote=“tommy525”]Tommy’s pocket theory:
Taiwan is an island and its people are ISLANDERS. They have a different mindset from those that live on Continents. Continental dwellers through the ages have been wanderer/gatherers likely to have run into others much different from their own. The Modern Taiwanese are still very much ethnically of a tribal headhunter mindset. They really didn’t have a whole lot of places they could go to as the island was small. Some did set out either by accident or on purpose to populate much of what we now know as the South Pacific, etc. Those that lived on the island belonged to many different tribes (with its own language/customs). The hapless early arrivals on Taiwan were met by natives that delighted in beheading and cooking them. Only when greater and yet greater non-islanders showed up did the natives get driven up more and more into the hills. But these later arrivals married many tribewomen.
Until say 30 years ago, many Taiwanese had never ventured out of the island and remained very secular and “tribal” in their outlook. Today that basic outlook on the world and society is still much colored by tribalism. Taiwanese remain very much seeking to belong to a “tribe” in all their daily endeavors. Everyone wants to belong to some group or groups. In the not too distant past, individualism resulted in a harsh life and perhaps an early death. Belonging to a tribe was crucial to existence itself.
Taiwanese like Japanese have learned that they need to make products, need to trade with the rest of the world because they cannot be self-sufficient in all their daily needs. Hence decades later the hard work has paid off and resulted in many trappings of modern life and a society “approaching” first world status. We have the subways, one of the tallest buildings in the world, a high speed train. The nation is like a rich kid that has amassed a lot of toys, but yet that child is still insulated from the vagaries of much of life and the world he lives in. Due to a good climate and other favorable conditions, people on Taiwan have been insulated from many great evils other places/civilizations have had visited upon them. Famine, drought, pestilence, and other pandora’s box visitations had not been inflicted upon the island.
The islands peoples are friendly by and large but not Politically Correct in their behavior or even their thinking. It would take another generation or two of travelling the world, living in other places, etc for there to be a substantial departure in tribal thinking.
Cant expect them to think/behave exactly as you would/do. If we exported everyone on TAiwan to say Montana and populated the island only with Europeans, it would indeed be a different place wouldnt it? But then y’all coulda just stayed home now couldnt cha?[/quote]
You make some valid points, but I disagree with the “islander” versus “mainlander” distinction. After all, arent’ the Chinese, in general, much ruder and more xenophobic than the Taiwanese? (Much of “mainland” Asia seems to be). And how the heck would that explain the way that the French treat foreigners?
Doesn’t bother me if it’s a little kid. They’re little kids!
If the parent says, “Ni Kan!” or if older kids do it, then I have a different attitude. I find pointing back and saying, “Ni kan! Taiguoren!” works well on adults. The other day, a few high school students started yelling, “Hello! How are you? What’s your name?” My wife let loose on them with some choice Mandarin and they shut up fast.
Incidently, in Europe my wife sometimes had small kids yelling, “Ni hao!” at her and it annoyed her immensely. I told her, “See? Now you know what it’s like!”
You’d be guessing wrong. 
Ask him what country he’s from! Ask him! Ask him if he’s ever traveled much!
My point, way back, is that you can’t ‘teach’ a five year-old-old how to behave in this situation because they are not cognitively able to empathise to that extent because they cannot depersonlise to that extent until they are about 7. All you can do is condition them by frightening them into behaving a certain way. Most parents would choose to let it go, especially in a society where most people are of the same ethnicity.
And kids do it in all countries. I’ve seen similar, yet completely unmalicious ‘incidents’ happen often with children under 6-7. It’s NOT negative behaviour, and it’s not anything malicious from idiot parents, it’s curiosity about difference, especially when a kid grows up in a very monocultural family / social group.
[quote=“Buttercup”][quote=“pgdaddy”]
I am guessing that you didn’t experience life in other countries, outside Taiwan and your home country ?
[/quote]
You’d be guessing wrong. 
Ask him what country he’s from! Ask him! Ask him if he’s ever traveled much!
My point, way back, is that you can’t ‘teach’ a five year-old-old how to behave in this situation because they are not cognitively able to empathise to that extent because they cannot depersonlise to that extent until they are about 7. All you can do is condition them by frightening them into behaving a certain way. Most parents would choose to let it go, especially in a society where most people are of the same ethnicity.
And kids do it in all countries. I’ve seen similar, yet completely unmalicious ‘incidents’ happen often with children under 6-7. It’s NOT negative behaviour, and it’s not anything malicious from idiot parents, it’s curiosity about difference, especially when a kid grows up in a very monocultural family / social group.[/quote]
Whether or not you can “teach” a 5-year old kid not to behave in a certain way (I think this girl may have been older than 5 anyway- I didn’t hang around to ask), have a think about who “teaches” the kid in the first place to point and say “look, there’s a foreigner ?”. I remember way back when, at that time I hadn’t had any contact with Asian or black people. My parents took me on holiday and there we made friends with an Indian couple. In front of everyone I said something like “Daddy, look at these people, they have a very dark suntan !” Sure it was a bit embarrassing for the Indian couple as well as for my folks, but that’s the natural innocent reaction from a child who hasn’t seen a dark-skinned person before, and once my parents had explained to me I never did it again. I couldn’t have been much more than five then.
I don’t think pointing, staring the stranger unashamedly in the eye and saying “look, there’s a foreigner” is a natural reaction. The concept “foreigner” as well as the action of pointing and staring has to be taught by the parents or learned from peers, and the parents doing nothing, or just laughing just reinforces the behaviour.
It’s not malicious, it is not meant in a negative way, and it is nothing more than a minor irritant (I bought the issue up not because I was pissed off, but just to raise a discussion) but that doesn’t mean it’s not wrong and that the parents shouldn’t do something about it.
So they didn’t do it before you spoke to the Indian couple?
‘Couldn’t have been much more than …’ Possibly, but chances are you didn’t do it again to avoid negative reactions from your parents, not because you empathised with the couple (although many would say ‘who cares if they know why they shouldn’t do something, as long as they don’t do it’). Or because the situation never arose again until you were at school.
I’ve met more than 1000 five year olds, during my career. It’s completely normal behaviour to point out different races, and also disabilities, and anything that is physically different. It’s not malicious as children don’t add any value to things they don’t know about. Kids that age can be ‘racist’, but they parrot their parents to get approval. Once they get to school, it subsides if they are in a multicultural environment.
Yes, it’s shitty and hickish when adults do it, and yes adults should teach their children good manners, which includes how to not antagonize people from outside your own culture, but at the age of five, the parents have bigger fish to fry, in terms of socialising 'em. Getting kids to share, getting them to wait their turn, etc. It all comes in time.
Eh? They do? Well, I suppose its because they have trouble fitting in? Dunno. Maybe they feel uncomfortable because rather than trying to fit in, they expend energy trying to make the people they meet fit in with THEM?
As for telling the kid she was rude or telling her parents she was rude? Maybe. As LONG as you made it VERY clear that its “foreigners” who find it rude. After all, there’s a pretty good chance that neither the kid nor her parents had any idea about your personal cultural mores. Why should they? They live here, not in your country, whereas YOU live here, in THEIR country, yet appear fairly ignorant about THEIR cultural mores. Because of course, the Taiwanese don’t consider it to be rude at all. Just as they don’t consider it rude to point out that someone (Taiwanese or foreigner) is fat, etc.
Fact is, it ISN’T considered rude here, by most people. A stranger giving a small child a dressing down – or her parents, for that matter – would be considered EXTREMELY rude, on the other hand.
And I’d be VERY surprised if, having explained in Chinese that you found such action rude – NOT, of course, anything as boorish as trying to say that such action IS actually rude – the parents at least would have been apologetic once they realised that their kid had actually offended you. They’d probably have forgiven you for your own rudeness, too.
I was angry with my wife teaching my nephews (4 or so) to jump around and yell ‘Adoah’ (Adoga) at me. They even had them trained to make a longnose guesture. As she didn’t stop we both want to make that a little song and dance number now. I imagine them in their first day at Kindergarten and then the Canadian teacher comes into the class. They get up from their seats and start a perfectly synchronized "Adoah Adoah’ dance, wearing little black top hats and then get into the rap phase
Foreigners steal and cheat.
Foreigners are smelly.
Listen to my beat.
Foreigners have a big belly!
Foreigners cannot be trusted.
Foreigners drink and have girls.
One even after my grandma has lusted.
Don’t trust them when they come with glass pearls.
Ah, one can have dreams… 
[quote=“pgdaddy”]I am guessing that you didn’t experience life in other countries, outside Taiwan and your home country ?
I’ll send you a PM with my story, by the way, which has it’s real place on the divorce forum.[/quote]
Lived in St Pauls in Bristol, UK for some time, Italy ( was nice being there when Chernabol when boom boom in 1986, lived Brunei for 2 years when working, Singapore & Malaysia one year, and spent 21 years in Taiwan, but with regular times away in the Philippines, China and other areas for months at a time. Those Pikeys in Bristol are such nice people… really 
My home country has been Taiwan for many years. It’s the attitude to where you live that counts. I did hate it for a year or so. Taiwan is my home, not just some place I live and work till I get enough $$$ to flee somewhere else. I don’t live in some bubble ffs. My Chinese is decent I can run my business and converse with my staff. Some speak very little English except when they tell me to fuck off.
All this thread over a little girl pointing her finger and calling you a foreigner, which she is right to do. She wasn’t being rude by any means here. I think it’s just you over reacting when a kid only points out what is normal that she is curious to see a foriegner.
Shite… even I point at furriners and called them Waiguorens too. So does Redwagon and Sandman… no big deal. 
Eh? They do? Well, I suppose its because they have trouble fitting in? Dunno. Maybe they feel uncomfortable because rather than trying to fit in, they expend energy trying to make the people they meet fit in with THEM?
As for telling the kid she was rude or telling her parents she was rude? Maybe. As LONG as you made it VERY clear that its “foreigners” who find it rude. After all, there’s a pretty good chance that neither the kid nor her parents had any idea about your personal cultural mores. Why should they? They live here, not in your country, whereas YOU live here, in THEIR country, yet appear fairly ignorant about THEIR cultural mores. Because of course, the Taiwanese don’t consider it to be rude at all. Just as they don’t consider it rude to point out that someone (Taiwanese or foreigner) is fat, etc.
Fact is, it ISN’T considered rude here, by most people. A stranger giving a small child a dressing down – or her parents, for that matter – would be considered EXTREMELY rude, on the other hand.[/quote]
Hmmm, so you would say that a Taiwanese person would feel happy at being pointed out in public, for being different ? I have a Taiwanese friend who lost her hair due to chemotherapy treatment for cancer. She was so upset about being pointed at/ approached in public that she stopped wanting to go outside and disappear into her own bubble.
Or another Taiwanese friend living down in Kenting who, when she was quite heavily pregnant, loved to go to swim in the sea, but was embarrassed to do so because of the looks and comments she got from the locals.
Taiwanese people have feelings just like us, they get hurt and offended too, they just become immune to it because they have to live with it every day. Doesn’t mean it’s right though. The cases above are worse than a foreigner being pointed out by a well-meaning child. But the root is the same- sensitivity towards others feelings. Basic human right, I reckon.