pay per bag is very fair. instead of charging you a flat monthly fee for garbage collection (as done in parts of USA), you pay for as many bags as you dump.
i dont see a problem with that. instead of other taxpayers pick up the tabs for you, you dump it you pay it.
I see a cynic who won’t learn from experience how things work in the real world.
I see people talking a lot of shit here as always.
I just see how it goes here and people already dump enough shit in nature here and it’s only going to get worse.
There’s enough garbage being dumped in public bins in Taipei city and with fewer public bins in Taipei county, the garbage will end up in nature instead, as it’s more of it here than in Taipei city. At least I’m happy that my community recycles already and there’s no garbage being dumped all over the place, as yet, but that might just change with this stupid new bag tax.
Charging per bag is hardly fair as it’s highly unlikely that they’ll ease the tax, they’ll just make you pay for the bags as an extra tax, so it’s not as if it’s going to make any difference at all, except we’ll all pay more for the garbage to be collected. Nothing in life is fair and that’s that.
I’d also like to know what actual percentage of what we recycle that is actually turned into new products rather than shredded up and dumped somewhere else. I know for a fact that in the UK for example the recycled glass bottles are all broken up and dumped in land fills. I saw what they used when they built the new river barriers/roads here in Xindian and it was mostly garbage instead of rocks and soil, so the ground will most likely cave in in a few years time one some of that garbage dissolves, but since it was mostly plastic and crap, I guess it’ll take a good few years…
Recycling might be a good concept, but much of what consumers recycle is just chucked away or burnt anyhow, as it’s too costly to properly recycle it.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]I see people talking a lot of shit here as always.
I just see how it goes here and people already dump enough shit in nature here and it’s only going to get worse.
There’s enough garbage being dumped in public bins in Taipei city and with fewer public bins in Taipei county, the garbage will end up in nature instead, as it’s more of it here than in Taipei city. At least I’m happy that my community recycles already and there’s no garbage being dumped all over the place, as yet, but that might just change with this stupid new bag tax.
[/quote]
it was far worse. people actually scoop up their dog’s poos unlike 5 years ago.
[quote]
Charging per bag is hardly fair as it’s highly unlikely that they’ll ease the tax, they’ll just make you pay for the bags as an extra tax, so it’s not as if it’s going to make any difference at all, except we’ll all pay more for the garbage to be collected. Nothing in life is fair and that’s that.[/quote]
if they dont charge by bag they would have had to raise the tax. same thing they’re doing with school air conditioners. all the parents in the class share the bill.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]I see people talking a lot of shit here as always.
I just see how it goes here and people already dump enough shit in nature here and it’s only going to get worse.
There’s enough garbage being dumped in public bins in Taipei city and with fewer public bins in Taipei county, the garbage will end up in nature instead, as it’s more of it here than in Taipei city. At least I’m happy that my community recycles already and there’s no garbage being dumped all over the place, as yet, but that might just change with this stupid new bag tax.[/quote]
So show me how Taipei’s successful garbage program resulted in tens of thousands of tons of garbage dumped in nature? I am out hiking and cycling in nature all around the city, all the time. You’d think I’d notice. Or the other tens of thousands of hikers and cyclists. It didn’t happen. You are talking shit. Complete shit.
Why would a city dweller get in his car or scooter and drive the 30 minutes to an hour it would take to get somewhere they could dump their garbage safely? Is this cost effective as opposed to separating your garbage and recyclables? Most people will find the volume of their garbage halved when they cut out recyclable and kitchen waste. The expenditure for blue bags in negligible. Spending a couple hours a week of your time, and of course gas, taking your garbage to the mountains to dump is the true money waster. Which is why it is so seldom done.
I mean really. You think 3 million Taipei residents are secretly driving to the mountains every second day to dump garbage? 
rather than the govt raising taxes and charging us all for other people’s mistakes (like obama is doing) i’d rather we go to a true pay-go (not the obama version) system.
you dump it you pay it. you use public service, you pay for it. if you want to take it up to maokong or whatever mountain and dump it, you pay for your gas, transportation, and fines if you get caught. don’t tell everybody else to pick up your tab (and trash).
Plenty shit dumped out here, but I’m not talking about the people living in Taipei city, I’m talking about the people who live here in the county, as we’re the ones affected by this new tax, as it’s nothing but a new tax. There’s already enough dumped garbage all over Taipei county, I see it every time I go outside. Further down this mountain there’s plenty of it being dumped, but I guess this isn’t where you go, so it doesn’t affect you.
Plenty shit being dumped in the rivers as well, saw loads of that where I used to live, along with the general garbage that was dumped up a mountain side there, but again, not in your area, so it doesn’t affect you.
It’s easy being self righteous when you do don’t live in the areas where the garbage is being dumped and it’s most likely going to get worse now.
People in the city simply bring their garbage to work, my GF’s mother does, as it’s easier to get rid of certain things there and it’s free, so no need to pay for “expensive” bags. You might not, but like me, you don’t count, as you’re not local.
As I said, my community is doing well when it comes to recycling and I do it myself in as much as I can, I just can’t justify saving up food slops for the pigs, as I don’t tend to have that much that they’d eat on a daily basis and after a couple of days it’s gone nasty and they wouldn’t eat it anyhow.
I don’t have anything against recycling, but as you mentioned earlier, the garbage is being incinerated here and from what I understand, the incinerators in Taiwan just do that, burn garbage, instead of using the heat to product hot water/electricity which is done where I come from and many other places. It’s a pure waste of what is actually something of a resource when it comes to power production, but I guess they’ll figure it out in a decade or two…
please, a couple weeks ago we were shitting on some middle class office workers for refusing to dish out 15 NT to a dimsel in distress on a public bus. why not, instead, pay a couple NT to save the environment.
[quote=“TaipeiD”]rather than the govt raising taxes and charging us all for other people’s mistakes (like obama is doing) I’d rather we go to a true pay-go (not the obama version) system.
you dump it you pay it. you use public service, you pay for it. if you want to take it up to maokong or whatever mountain and dump it, you pay for your gas, transportation, and fines if you get caught. don’t tell everybody else to pick up your tab (and trash).[/quote]
Wow, talk about being full of shit… you really don’t understand how a society works…
If it’s not the same for everyone, then there’s always going to be people taking advantage of the system, one way or another.
Some of the problems involving the bags here is that you can buy fake bags for less than the cost of the real ones which means organized crime is involved and the government doesn’t get the money it should be getting for taking away peoples garbage.
On top of that, there’s an extra cost involved in producing, shipping and retailing the bags and as you can only get them in selected retail outlets, it’s an unfair way of distributing the bags as far as retailers are concerned.
The system is flawed in so many ways, yet it seems like neither of you two can grasp this.
And the amount of tax you pay for garbage collection in this country isn’t exactly going to make any of us poor, as it’s very cheap compared to just about anywhere else in the world. And what has changed in the recent few months/years to validate the implementation of this system compared to just charging it on the tax? But I guess the two of you rather run down to 7-11 at 11pm cause you forgot to buy garbage bags and you’ve run out… I don’t, but hey, then again, I guess I come from what is in your opinion a much hated socialist country that are near enough as bad as it gets, am I right?
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]
Wow, talk about being full of shit… [/quote]
believe me, it was far worse 5 years ago. the side walks were literally full of dog shit. (some still are)
I like to assume people are innocent before proven guilty. You seem to believe in just the opposite.
[quote]
If it’s not the same for everyone, then there’s always going to be people taking advantage of the system, one way or another.
Some of the problems involving the bags here is that you can buy fake bags for less than the cost of the real ones which means organized crime is involved and the government doesn’t get the money it should be getting for taking away peoples garbage.
On top of that, there’s an extra cost involved in producing, shipping and retailing the bags and as you can only get them in selected retail outlets, it’s an unfair way of distributing the bags as far as retailers are concerned.
The system is flawed in so many ways, yet it seems like neither of you two can grasp this.
And the amount of tax you pay for garbage collection in this country isn’t exactly going to make any of us poor, as it’s very cheap compared to just about anywhere else in the world. And what has changed in the recent few months/years to validate the implementation of this system compared to just charging it on the tax? [/quote]
so get the law enforcement to capture counterfeiters. impose fines to recoup govt losses. waste management is actually run (outsourced) to organized crime families in USA. not that far off in taiwan.
[quote]
But I guess the two of you rather run down to 7-11 at 11pm cause you forgot to buy garbage bags and you’ve run out… I don’t, but hey, then again, I guess I come from what is in your opinion a much hated socialist country that are near enough as bad as it gets, am I right?[/quote]
i’d put my garbage in a plain plastic bag first. i’d buy the govt bags on my way back from work the following day and then put the plain bag into the govt bag. that’s assuming my building doesnt do all that shit for me.
So you are saying county people are inferior ruffians who won’t be able to absorb the savings this new system will bring except to go nuts and dump their garbage everywhere? 
Are you unable to follow the argument? Taipei city has this same system. It did not result in dumping tons of garbage every day. Why would it be different in the county?
[quote]There’s already enough dumped garbage all over Taipei county, I see it every time I go outside. Further down this mountain there’s plenty of it being dumped, but I guess this isn’t where you go, so it doesn’t affect you.
Plenty shit being dumped in the rivers as well, saw loads of that where I used to live, along with the general garbage that was dumped up a mountain side there, but again, not in your area, so it doesn’t affect you.[/quote]
Yes, there is garbage in the mountains. Not tens of thousands of tons as there would be if most people were dumping. Hell, garbage time would be like a ghost town on my street if no one was taking anything out.
I live in the county now. Ha.
What world do you live in?
From the GIO:
The system has such minor flaws compared to the benefits that it is simply perverse to argue it shouldn’t be implemented because it lacks perfection.
Huh?
Well, admittedly I was wrong on the last point, which is a good thing, although can’t say I’ve seen much in terms of power lines from the local incinerator here in Xindian, but I haven’t actually headed over that closely to have a look…
I think I live in the same world as you, as I said, I know people who bring their garbage to work, you might not, but it definitely happens here. Also, have a look at the public bins, they’re quite often filled with household garbage and that is in Taipei City, or at least in the Xinyi district where I used to live. Plenty people dumping garbage in the back alleys there too. Sure, not everyone’s dumping their garbage, but there’s sadly too many people doing this and it sucks. This new tax is just going to increase that and I can’t see anyone getting fined for dumping garbage any more after December 1st than they are today.
[quote=“TheLostSwede”]Well, admittedly I was wrong on the last point, which is a good thing, although can’t say I’ve seen much in terms of power lines from the local incinerator here in Xindian, but I haven’t actually headed over that closely to have a look…
I think I live in the same world as you, as I said, I know people who bring their garbage to work, you might not, but it definitely happens here. Also, have a look at the public bins, they’re quite often filled with household garbage and that is in Taipei City, or at least in the Xinyi district where I used to live. Plenty people dumping garbage in the back alleys there too. Sure, not everyone’s dumping their garbage, but there’s sadly too many people doing this and it sucks. This new tax is just going to increase that and I can’t see anyone getting fined for dumping garbage any more after December 1st than they are today.[/quote]
Again, a few people taking advantage of this system is not a serious argument against it.
By the way, Swede, I think we now know why you find the locals get a little smelly on the MRT in summer.
They’re all carrying their garbage to work. :roflmao:
It’s happening in HsinChuang too. Just took my trash down and we have a central place for collection in our apartment block and the security guard told me that I can’t through the garbage away unless it is in the correct bags now. They have new big bins for everyone to through these bags in so they can check and then the garbage truck comes and empies those big bins. Seems I wasn’t the only one who didn’t know, some of my Taiwanese neighbors also came down with trash in regular plastic bags. Our apartment block has always had a great system of sorting the recycled stuff, and now we gotta buy these bags as well…
Hey, open your eyes when you walk around. It’s been that way for years already.[/quote]
Oh I know… wait till you see it after the fee starts being charged
It is interesting that Urodacus notices the garbage everywhere, but Muzha doesnt.
I know Kaohsiung where I was is full of dumped garbage. If there is a field, there is garbage. Im sure Taipei will be the exact same soon.
I never had any interest in living in Taipei, and this just proves it to me even more. They are so interested in looking like a real “international” city, they are always looking for ways to fine and raise more tax money. I’ll take my wild west Kaohsiung any day of the year. Taipei is starting to look like Canada more and more with all their tax schemes… kinda scary.
Well, Xindian has a serious problem with garbage being thrown out in the hills, even in New Garden City, where the dwellers have complained publicly that people dump dogs, garbage, old cars/scooters etc. in spite of the distance. Same with doggie poop.
I noticed that someone has been “promoting” cleanliness in our borough. I face two rat cadavers every morning when I go out.
One would hope, being positive, that having to get into the discipline required to sort the garbage and to pay for teh bags would make people think about their living environment. However, again, demographics play a big part: most people living in this area are not owners, but renters. Their attachment to the place tuns out like their contract. These are dormitory cities.
Taipei County has lower income in average and people already do not make a lot of money and are streching their resources. They may not find the incentive to dispose of their trash properly and hence may dump it in places where currently you see small piles. Why? Because there is little law enforcement. Even if law enforcement is more strict, people still would have little alternatives.
I think about my elderly neighbors. One of them rides her bike after 10 to dump her garbage by the riverside beacuse she works as a janitor until 9. Many are taken care of by foreign maids. The families already give little money for expenses to the maids. So, who’s going to buy the bags? The families? I can see one more clash brewing…
Thank you, finally some other people that understand where I’m coming from.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that’s seen the garbage dumps all over Xindian and the fact that no-one seems to care about them. It’s alsp highly likely that it’s going to get a lot worse.
Plenty dumped dogs, scooters and what not up here too. People drive half way up the mountain at night, as there’s very little traffic up this way at night and dump whatever that’s hard to get rid of and they just drop it at the side of the road. I’ve already seen a couple of scooters and there’s a bunch of semi-wild dogs up here and they’re all having puppies and then they sleep on the road and nearly cause accidents on a daily basis, as they’re all so close to the road. But I guess this isn’t anyone’s problem unless they live here so…
Dogs, cars, scooters and furniture are not household garbage. Yes, they get dumped, but you know what - the people who dump these things are idiots. Why? Because they spend their time and money, and risk a fine, to dump something that they can have removed for free (except the dogs of course). The problem is educating the lower class to understand what services are available not to not implement policies that will be successful for the vast majority of people.
At least icon is being honest that this is a working class and working poor problem, and not a problem with the policy. Swedie, I asked you about this and you deftly avoided making a classist statement so :raspberry:
Btw, everyone in Taiwan generates about .6 kilos of garbage a day. So will one of the no-tax geniuses show me how 1,500 tons of garbage are being strewn around Taipei every day, or the equivalent in Taipei County? Or even a tiny percentage of this?
I know there’s lots of garbage in many places in the city. This is mostly items that are consumed during the day and discarded. Some of you people are making the most ludicrous claims, starting with Swede’s contention that people are bringing garbage to work and ending with dan2006 notion that Taipei is becoming like Canada (I wish). Jesus, the hysteria over a successful program being implemented in other districts is astonishing. Yes, it may not work in the really poor areas. But as I said, even when removal is free the poor don’t take advantage of it so what are you going to do? Stop it from working in 95% of the rest of the county?